Seth Thomas 120F strike settings

[orso]

After a day attempting, I surrendered and decide to ask for help. My little Seth Thomas 120 strike seems hard to set. The gathering pallet with the rack at rest on the rack hook has the pin around two o'clock, free from the rack. The hammer tail is not jamming into the hammer lift star. The gathering pallet is not yet in it's definite position, by the way the sequence seems correct the strike work. Nevertheless once in a while when the locking lever sets free the locking pin, this would not stop at the warning lever, would skip it by about a couple of tenths of millimeters and make a few turns, then stops and the sequence goes on ok. This happens for both the hour and the half hour. It seems to me that the arc between the lifting lever and the warning lever is a bit large but I don't see a way to reduce it being the levers flat brass. I checked the star cam; it looks good with smooth surface. Is this only a matter of setting the gathering pallet in a different position? I tried to find a better one but with no results. Is there any thing I can attempt? I know I'm bothering the group quite often and maybe I'm asking to much to myself attempting things for expert and not newbie like me, but it sounds really a pity to have this Seth Thomas on the bench just for the strike.

Thanks a lot for your attention.

Andrea

 

[shutterbug]

It sounds like the train is releasing prematurely, before the warn stop lever can get in position. See if you can either adjust the release time, or raise the stop lever a little.

 

[orso]

Thanks, Shutter.
I'll try being very careful. You know the lifting lever is facing the star cam with its flat side (strange to me) otherwise moving it a little laterally would have done. What do you think about lowering a bit the pin on the plate where the lifting lever rests? It sound a little less dangerous.

 

[Jay Fortner]

Andrea, it sounds like your warning lever is a little delayed or stop lever advanced. It's been a couple years since I worked on a 120,could you post a pic of the whole front of the movement?

 

[orso]

Hi, Jay.Thanks so much for getting interested.
The whole thing sounds really strange. It looks like that it is not its own lifting lever; how could I have bent it disassembling the movement and putting it back? I added some more picks; they might be useful also to somebody else. In the second picture the pin on the plate I have been talking about.

Cheers,
Andrea

 

[Tinker Dwight]

I don't know enough about this clock to help much.
It sounds like the lifting lever is lifting too early
before the warning lever has time to get into place.
How does the gathering pallet lift the rack?
Perhaps a video of the action would help.
Tinker Dwight

 

[shutterbug]

It looks like the lever inside the plates is the warning stop lever, and it does appear a little low to do it's job. On the other end, it looks rough, like someone maybe had a go at it with pliers. Take a peek at that and let us know what you see. Also, look to see how it is lifted. I suspect another little lift on the back side of the longest lever on the front.
As you work on more movements, you'll find that you often have to undo other peoples uneducated attempts at repair.

 

[Jay Fortner]

Andrea, That pin just supports the lifting lever so it won't rub the center shaft when the lever is at rest. Try removing the hour wheel/cannon and minute wheel so you can see what the levers are doing as the center cam is lifting the levers. It should lift the lifting/warning lever high enough to place it in front of the warning pin then as the lifting progresses the stop lever/rack hook will clear the stop pin,the rack will fall and the warning wheel will rotate until its pin hits the lifting/warning lever. The next event will be the warning lever dropping off the center cam and the train will run and count strikes until the stop lever/rack hook drops below the rack and arrests the train.
Timing, The best method I can describe to time this style setup is;
Let the power down!
Rotate the strike arbor until the hammer paddle falls off one of the star wheel teeth and then just enough more for the stop pin to contact the stop lever/rack hook. At this point the warning pin should be 90-180deg advanced of the warning lever. Install the gathering pallet so it just clears the teeth on the rack(it was right in your second pic,first post).

 

[orso]

Jay, I'll follow your advice and try again. Yes the gathering pallet is not yet in its definitive position; I would like to fix the problem first.
For Thinker, I'm sorry I was unable to make a movie little enough to upload; I'll keep trying and come back asap. Sometimes the operations are correct; it depends on how fast I move the minute hand; if the critical point is overcome thing seem ok. I In the picture I hope the position of the pin on the warning face of the lever can also be seen.
For Shutter, no, there isn't another lever in the back. Lifting lever, locking lever and warning lever are all together on the same arbor. For the half hr. strike the lift is not enough to unhook the racket, so there is only one rotation of the pallet and one strike. For the hr the star cam rises the lever enough to get the rack free to fall into the snail.
At this point I think everything is there: the wheel and the locking/warning pin; if the it goes down just a few tenths, the problem is solved, but I'm a little scared to touch it.
Again thanks to all; I'll let you know how it goes; my hands would like to touch that pin

 

[orso]

Hi all. I think I found the way to fix it.
Stutter, sorry again for the movie; I wasn't able to make one small enough to upload; better it sais uploaded but it is not there.
In the attached picture the minute hand points to the lifting lever; this is flat brass but can gently be bent left or right; going to the right means toward the fulcrum of the levers; a little movement makes a larger one at the edge of the locking/warning lever; had to try a few times, but now the the strike sequence works fine. Do you think my reasoning is correct? I still have a problem though; I need to fix the gathering pallet in the right position that it seems not willing to keep. What can I do?
Thanks a lot everybody and sorry for my bad English.

Andrea

 

[shutterbug]

Your GP looks ok in the pic. Your video needs to be uploaded to Youtube, and referenced here. We don't have the capabilities to accept video on the board.

 

[orso]

Thanks Shutter. Here it is the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnpNn-sty6A&feature=youtu.be
Both correct and right sequences are there.
As I said the locking and warning are ok now. Yes the position of the GP was also ok, but now it wont keep the right position, kind of loose on its arbor.

 

[Jay Fortner]

First I gotta ask if you've got it pushed up on its arbor far enough,those arbors are tapered.You may have to close up the hole a little. Normally a hole closing punch would be used and if you have such a thing it would be time to break it out. A nail set can be used to close a hole,the cupped point will draw the metal inward when you whack it(carefully and progressively). They come in different sizes so you should be able to get one that is right for your application. Takes a little practice to get the point centered around the hole but does a good job. A pin punch can be used but won't do as good a job and you'll have to hit it a lot harder and leave a big pocket around the hole.

 

[orso]

Thanks Jay. Actually I didn't touch it; I managed to keep it there when I disassembled the movement. But I later found I could move it with my fingers; It might have been moved before. Ok, then I will try to gently take it out and buy the tools. My 120 will stay there for a while :-(

 

[Jay Fortner]

In the future get in the habit of pulling those so you can clean the hole under them. On Hermles if you don't clean that pivot hole they won't be long for this world. Yeah probably in the past it's been adjusted and readjusted until it wallowed out the hole.

 

[orso]

Sorry to bother again. Have been looking on Timesavers catalog for the set; only found a punching set. When you say nail set do you mean a normal hardware store set like this?
http://www.grainger.com/product/DEWALT-Nail-Set-48Z981?s_pp=false

 

[shutterbug]

I believe I was correct about the stop lever. It is between the plates and the relationship between the strike stop and warning stop levers needs to be increased (forced further apart). The warning stop is not raising high enough to catch the pin. The GP seems OK to me. That clicking noise that sometimes occurs during the strike is the pin hitting the top of the warn stop.

 

[Jay Fortner]

Sorry to bother again. Have been looking on Timesavers catalog for the set; only found a punching set. When you say nail set do you mean a normal hardware store set like this?
http://www.grainger.com/product/DEWALT-Nail-Set-48Z981?s_pp=false

Yes ma'am,those are the aminals. R&M Imports offers a set of hole closing punches. The plus side to actual closing punches is they have a spring loaded center finder that positions the punch on the center of the hole.

 

[orso]

I got one in my tool box. Is not the spring centering type but the diameter is just right. Going to give it a try.

 

[orso]

Yes you wee, thanks

 

[orso]

The little thing has finally been working for 3 days now. Thanks all for your help.
Lesson learned : always pull out the gathering cam, not only for cleaning purposes but also because it will be very difficult to set the strike with it in place; the strike needs two setting in sequence: one to have the hammer tail free from the star wheel when at rest and another to just free the gathering cam pin from the rack and no more; it will get completely free at the warning. The lifting lever can be moved to the left to have the warning flag in position before the unlock; it has to be moved very slightly since it will also affect the rack hook and the rack might not come down; a final touch can be made slightly bending up the rack hook.

http://youtu.be/YnWXE_E1TLA

 

[Jay Fortner]

Sounds good!,Looks good! I did notice a couple double bumps of the hammer,bend the arm just a tad to give the hammer and gong a little more clearance at rest.