Sessions Click Spring

legosnell

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I was cleaning the movement on a Sessions clock when the click spring either broke off or came loose. Picture attached. Is it broken or just came off and how do you repair or replace?

Appreciate the advise
Larry G?

click spring.jpg
 

R. Croswell

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Larry, this doesn't look like a typical Sessions click. Not saying that it isn't. Can we see a picture of the entire main wheel, and also the complete movement. We need to know for sure whether the click spring was attached to the click and hooked under a "tab" on the main wheel, or it the click spring is attached to the main wheel and applies pressure to the the click in which case there is usually a groove in the edge of the click. In either case check carefully that the brass rivet holding click is not loose.

If the click spring was attached to the click (typical for Sessions) the first step is to remove the rivet and remove the click. You can then see how it was attached and will need to drive out the broke off remnant. A new click spring wire can usually be inserted and staked in place as the original was. It is generally recommended to replace brass click springs with steel. 0.018" music wire or pivot wire is good. Keep in mind that a steel click spring wire will be smaller in diameter than a brass wire for the same strength.

RC
 

legosnell

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Larry, this doesn't look like a typical Sessions click. Not saying that it isn't. Can we see a picture of the entire main wheel, and also the complete movement. We need to know for sure whether the click spring was attached to the click and hooked under a "tab" on the main wheel, or it the click spring is attached to the main wheel and applies pressure to the the click in which case there is usually a groove in the edge of the click. In either case check carefully that the brass rivet holding click is not loose.

If the click spring was attached to the click (typical for Sessions) the first step is to remove the rivet and remove the click. You can then see how it was attached and will need to drive out the broke off remnant. A new click spring wire can usually be inserted and staked in place as the original was. It is generally recommended to replace brass click springs with steel. 0.018" music wire or pivot wire is good. Keep in mind that a steel click spring wire will be smaller in diameter than a brass wire for the same strength.

RC
20210123_135046.jpg 20210125_075621 copy.jpg S20210125_0005.jpg
 

R. Croswell

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OK, on the back of the wheel grind off any head of the rivet where it was peened. Support click and drive out the rivet and remove the click. Let us see the back side of the click. Probably has a groove into which the original wire was placed and staked on either side. The new wire goes in the same way. With these repairs, replacing the rivet is the main task. I prefer a steel shoulder rivet. If you have a lathe it is a simple matter to make a rivet. Click rivets are available from the suppliers such as www.timesavers.com but seldom fit properly. You have the option of replacing the entire click with a new one that comes with a spring and rivet.

Here is a picture of one of the generic clicks installed on a Sessions movement. Sort of ugly but pretty substantial. A lot of the replacement clicks are crap. Usually best to repair the original.

RC

sessions E regulator (mine) 12.JPG
 

wow

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The click looks like it is still in good condition. Like RC said, the spring will need to be removed, the rivet removed, and a new click spring staked into the slot in the click. Using the old click spring will probably not work because it will be too short. Take the click off and let us see the other side where the slot is.

Oops, RC ad I posted at the same time.
 

legosnell

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OK, on the back of the wheel grind off any head of the rivet where it was peened. Support click and drive out the rivet and remove the click. Let us see the back side of the click. Probably has a groove into which the original wire was placed and staked on either side. The new wire goes in the same way. With these repairs, replacing the rivet is the main task. I prefer a steel shoulder rivet. If you have a lathe it is a simple matter to make a rivet. Click rivets are available from the suppliers such as www.timesavers.com but seldom fit properly. You have the option of replacing the entire click with a new one that comes with a spring and rivet.

Here is a picture of one of the generic clicks installed on a Sessions movement. Sort of ugly but pretty substantial. A lot of the replacement clicks are crap. Usually best to repair the original.

RC

View attachment 634395
Thank you RC for the education on Click spring replacement/repair. Since I'm just a beginner with the basic hand tools it's probably best for me to go with the replacement option. I'll see what I can find on timesavers.

Thanks again
Larr G
 

legosnell

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The click looks like it is still in good condition. Like RC said, the spring will need to be removed, the rivet removed, and a new click spring staked into the slot in the click. Using the old click spring will probably not work because it will be too short. Take the click off and let us see the other side where the slot is.

Oops, RC ad I posted at the same time.
Ok Wow, I'll try and remove the click and see how the spring was originally attached. Sure appreciate the advise on repair.

Larry G
 

legosnell

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I was able to tap out the broken off piece in the click without removing the click or drilling out the click post. The wire measures .030" or about 0.75mm so I think the Timesavers 10-pack of .035" diameter click spring wire may work.
 

Dick Feldman

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From experience, I would guess the click/mounting rivet is loose on the hole of the click. The click assemblies offered by suppliers are likely made in India and are of poor quality. That may be what you are dealing with.
The click assembly is an important part of the clock movement because when click assemblies fail, the clock movement can become dangerous. That is, potentially dangerous to the hand winding the clock and to the rest of the clock movement. When a click fails, the winding key may/can spin wildly and draw blood as well as cause a blue thumbnail. The shock can damage teeth and arbors in the clock movement.
The click assembly should be from quality materials, the click should fit its pivot rivet (no wobble), the click should land squarely on each ratchet tooth and the return spring should be made from spring steel. Check also the integrity of the ratchet wheel teeth. Those should be identical with no short teeth or grooved surfaces.
Each of your clock trains have probably been wound the same number of times in the last 80-100 years. The click assembly on the other train should be addressed and corrected at the same time.

That is my opinion,

Dick
 
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Dick Feldman

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I was able to tap out the broken off piece in the click without removing the click or drilling out the click post. The wire measures .030" or about 0.75mm so I think the Timesavers 10-pack of .035" diameter click spring wire may work.
I have found those wires to be of poor quality. They seem to be made from soft steel.
 

legosnell

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It's the only choice I find on timesavers when I search for "click spring wire"
 

Dick Feldman

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How about Google?
Search for piano wire or spring steel wire.
From your first photo, I may see a tooth or two of the ratchet wheel damaged or the point/s missing.
It is your thumb that is at risk with a failure.
PM me with your address and I will send you a few lengths of spring steel wire.
D
 

legosnell

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How about Google?
Search for piano wire or spring steel wire.
From your first photo, I may see a tooth or two of the ratchet wheel damaged or the point/s missing.
It is your thumb that is at risk with a failure.
PM me with your address and I will send you a few lengths of spring steel wire.
D
Appreciate the offer and education very much but I've got to place an order with timesavers anyway, for some other things I need so I'll just get some spring wire that way. I do see a couple of teeth on the great wheel that have damage but just to the very tip of a couple of the teeth. I'll be careful to watch the meshing of the click with the great wheel teeth. Appreciate you noticing that and cautioning me about it.
 

Dick Feldman

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Well, I guess you have been warned.

When that click assembly fails I hope you remember the good advice given as your hand bleeds and the end of your thumb continues to throb for weeks.

D
 

Willie X

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I agree with others. This area of the clock needs to be in top condition. Any damage to the clickwheel teeth (even slight damage) needs to be repaired. Good winding habits are important but a single damaged tooth will ALWAYS come back to bite you eventually ... Willie X
 
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legosnell

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Well, I guess you have been warned.

When that click assembly fails I hope you remember the good advice given as your hand bleeds and the end of your thumb continues to throb for weeks.

D
Ok thanks for the warning but since you haven't even inspected the wheel teeth yourself, and I have, you assuming I am going to get hurt is a bit of a stretch. This click is good and tight and the wheel teeth are in good reusable condition and only needs click spring replacement.
 
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R. Croswell

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Based on the pictures along, I see nothing wrong with the click wheel or the click except the broken click spring. To do a proper repair of the spring the rivet will need to be replaced so its condition is not relevant at this point but a loose click rivet would spell disaster. The warnings about the consequences of a click failure however are very true and I am sure well intended to protect the "uninitiated". Many of us have been "initiated" into that club and now have a greater respect what can happen.

RC
 
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wow

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I have found that the most important things about the click set-up are the condition of the click wheel (as Willie said), the condition of the click itself, the condition of the rivet, and the fit of the key the person is using. A key that is too large can cause more problems than almost anything else if it slips. One of the first things I check on a customer’s clock is the size of the key.
I have been using good heavy brass click springs for many years and have no problem with them. The spring, whether steel or brass, must be installed properly. The bend, where it is attached to the click, must be a gradual bend rather than a sharp bend. Most I have seen that break, break at the exit from the click because the spring was bent at almost 90 degrees.
 
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legosnell

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Based on the pictures along, I see nothing wrong with the click wheel or the click except the broken click spring. To do a proper repair of the spring the rivet will need to be replaced so its condition is not relevant at this point but a loose click rivet would spell disaster. The warnings about the consequences of a click failure however are very true and I am sure well intended to protect the "uninitiated". Many of us have been "initiated" into that club and now have a greater respect what can happen.

RC
I had a mainspring break just all of a sudden while the movement was installed in a clock and had been running for days. Just out of the blue and it was quite a violent thing since the clock was sitting right next to me. So I'm aware of the dangers now and always have safety in the back of my mind when working around mainsprings.
 

Willie X

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I misread "a couple of teeth on the [great] wheel" for [click] wheel. Sorry

After taking a closer look at the photos. I think the mainwheel might be loose.

Yes, mainsprings can break on their own but it's pretty rare. Stretching the springs out and checking closely for cracks and rust will prevent this to some degree. There is a long list of things to check when you have the ole clock apart. :)

Willie X
 
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Dietofnothing

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FWIW (I’m a novice as well), I just replaced a Sessions click, spring, and rivet. I used Sessions click kit from Timesavers & got 2 of all the parts.

It may be made in India, but the quality seemed ok. It was my first time doing it and it seems very secure - certainly way better than the one I took out. I’m pretty confident in it.
 

legosnell

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FWIW (I’m a novice as well), I just replaced a Sessions click, spring, and rivet. I used Sessions click kit from Timesavers & got 2 of all the parts.

It may be made in India, but the quality seemed ok. It was my first time doing it and it seems very secure - certainly way better than the one I took out. I’m pretty confident in it.
Would you mind looking at your past order with timesavers and let me know exactly what you ordered or maybe a link to the item on timesavers? Appreciate it. I was thinking I could first try and just insert the new wire with click still in place since I was able to use a tiny punch to push on and then pull out the broken off piece completely. The click is good and tight with the rivet and no slop.
 

Dietofnothing

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Would you mind looking at your past order with timesavers and let me know exactly what you ordered or maybe a link to the item on timesavers? Appreciate it. I was thinking I could first try and just insert the new wire with click still in place since I was able to use a tiny punch to push on and then pull out the broken off piece completely. The click is good and tight with the rivet and no slop.
67DDEA74-C531-4107-B5FB-0E21F4C9A217.jpeg
 

disciple_dan

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I misread "a couple of teeth on the [great] wheel" for [click] wheel. Sorry

After taking a closer look at the photos. I think the mainwheel might be loose.

Yes, mainsprings can break on their own but it's pretty rare. Stretching the springs out and checking closely for cracks and rust will prevent this to some degree. There is a long list of things to check when you have the ole clock apart. :)

Willie X
Hello, Willie X, Is that you. You're back. I have missed your wonderful advice and comments. I hope you'll tell us of your adventures while you were away.
Welcome back, Danny
 

R. Croswell

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Here is the link to the Timesavers part: Timesavers I believe these come with straight brass rivets and brass click springs made in India. You have been warned. It can be difficult to set straight rivets (as opposed to shoulder rivets) and have the rivet be tight and still not bin the click.

RC
 

bikerclockguy

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Here is the link to the Timesavers part: Timesavers I believe these come with straight brass rivets and brass click springs made in India. You have been warned. It can be difficult to set straight rivets (as opposed to shoulder rivets) and have the rivet be tight and still not bin the click.

RC
Hey RC, I’m in the same boat here, and since my click is in good shape, I’m leaning toward reusing it with a new spring, rather than replacing the whole assembly. I don’t really need a big roll of steel spring wire though, as I do this strictly as a hobby. Timesavers offers these click springs, but the description doesn’t specify whether they are brass or steel. I’d prefer steel, but I’m guessing they are probably brass. Have you ever used these, and if so, can you tell me about the material and/or quality? I see they are made in India, which doesn’t inspire a lot of confidence... Click Spring Wire -10 Pack
 

Dick Feldman

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Hey RC, I’m in the same boat here, and since my click is in good shape, I’m leaning toward reusing it with a new spring, rather than replacing the whole assembly. I don’t really need a big roll of steel spring wire though, as I do this strictly as a hobby. Timesavers offers these click springs, but the description doesn’t specify whether they are brass or steel. I’d prefer steel, but I’m guessing they are probably brass. Have you ever used these, and if so, can you tell me about the material and/or quality? I see they are made in India, which doesn’t inspire a lot of confidence... Click Spring Wire -10 Pack
Those are steel wire but the quality is poor and irregular with each spring.
Regardless of why you repair clocks, it is important to have the click assembly work every time.
There has been much misinformation and poor assumptions stated about clicks/springs in this thread.
I would suggest you not take advice from people with little experience and limited knowledge.
The cost of a roll of quality spring wire will be less than 5% of the charges to stitch up one's hand after being injured.
D
 

bikerclockguy

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Those are steel wire but the quality is poor and irregular with each spring.
Regardless of why you repair clocks, it is important to have the click assembly work every time.
There has been much misinformation and poor assumptions stated about clicks/springs in this thread.
I would suggest you not take advice from people with little experience and limited knowledge.
The cost of a roll of quality spring wire will be less than 5% of the charges to stitch up one's hand after being injured.
D
Thanks for the info on that, Dick. I’ve been spring-slapped a couple of times, and after the last time, when I had purple fingers for a couple of weeks, I decided a spring winder would be a good investment. I always read the entire thread with interest, but I’m choosy on whose advice I ultimately take. I’m not in favor of “smack downs” for relative newcomers offering advice, though. I have(with the intention of being helpful and sharing my experience)offered some less-than-sage advice here a few times myself. It’s all part of the learning/growing experience, and I think most people reading these things are smart enough to separate the wheat from the chaff.
 

R. Croswell

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Quality spring wire (music wire) is available from www.mcmaster.com Music wire in various sizes is usually available at local hobby shops. Something around 0.020" dia. should work. With click springs, heavier is not necessarily better. Over powerful click springs will accelerate wear to the click and ratchet wheel. Doesn't matter whether it is the click, the rivet, or the click spring that fails, the result is the same.

RC
 
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bikerclockguy

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Thanks, RC! I’m building this one for my girlfriend, so I want to make sure it’s right! I’ll check locally, and if I don’t do any good there, I’ll order from McMasters.
 

R. Croswell

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Thanks, RC! I’m building this one for my girlfriend, so I want to make sure it’s right! I’ll check locally, and if I don’t do any good there, I’ll order from McMasters.
This is from an E. Ingraham of my own and shows an unusual click failure. Made me a little paranoid at the time so I installed an extra click as a backup. Overkill? Several years later I notice that only one was clicking. I believe that some new Hermle movements are now coming with dual clicks.

RC

DSC00950.jpg dual_click.jpg
 
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bikerclockguy

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I like that setup, and Bruce suggested it as well. Looks like you put a brad through the spoke and raised the edge with a chisel or something so it would catch the click spring? I ge the general idea from the pics. Thanks!
 

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