Self winding clock Company of New York

Discussion in 'Electric Horology' started by Rogerstar1, Dec 14, 2012.

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  1. Rogerstar1

    Rogerstar1 Registered User

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    #1 Rogerstar1, Dec 14, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2012
    Photos of acquisition....
    experiencing technical problems...more later.

    Numbers stamped on works are 94376 and they include four wound coils.
    The oak case itself, a portion of which is shown in the only photograph I have been able to get uploaded so far, bears the number 13. The case measures 62 inches high, 19 inches wise at it's waist, so to speak and is 7.5 inches deep. The extraordinarily heavy pendulum has two cylinders side by side. They appear to be metal and silver. I wonder if they are genuine mercury or if they contain iron ingots. More photos to follow, hopefully.
     

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  2. Richard T.

    Richard T. Deceased
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    The description sounds like the size of a Self Winding Clock Co. master clock. Below are photos of two that I have, one with the regular 10 pound pendulum/bob and one with mercury filled cylinders. Anything like what you are describing?
     

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  3. Rogerstar1

    Rogerstar1 Registered User

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    Thanks, yes my clock and pendulum match your's. Do your bobs contain real mercury? My twin cylinders appear to be metal rather than glass vials as I would think would be utilized with mercury. Nothing seems to move when I shake them gently as I'd expect they would if liquid filled. That said they do seem to be awfully heavy. I have the works and a clock face with the name Self Winding Clock Company over the words New York. It appears to be held to the works by four bolts. What the likelihood of getting this thing running properly again. Are parts and specialists around that work on these?

    My camera is fouling up my ability to upload photos tonight. Thanks for the information, Richard.

    RD
     
  4. Richard T.

    Richard T. Deceased
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    The mercury vials for these clocks are metal. Mine has mercury in it. The pendulum is shown in LY's American Clocks Vol 2.
    The mercury pendulum was made in two different weights, 15 and 30 pound. These clocks can be repaired by someone familiar with them. Availability of parts isn't known. Would probably depend on what was needed. Overall, I would say parts are not readily available.

    The two SWCC master clocks that I have are the same except for the pendulums. One is the 10 pound round metal bob, the other is mercury.

    I really like these clocks and have two master clocks and four other different ones.
     
  5. Rogerstar1

    Rogerstar1 Registered User

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    mercury pendulum 001.jpg Here is my pendulum weighing in at 30 pounds. Any thoughts Richard T, about why such a heavy bob was deemed necessary or one with the sophistacated adjustment mechanisms?
     
  6. Richard T.

    Richard T. Deceased
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    Although your question is stated in one relatively short sentence, I'm sure the answer would be much longer and I'm not sure that I'm the one to provide an adequate answer.

    If you have "The Modern Clock" by Ward L. Goodrich, originally published in 1905 and reprinted numerous times, you can read some about the theory of compensated pendulums. The book is still available and is a worthwhile investment since it has a lot of very good information about different things.

    Having quickly read it again, I doubt that I can provide a good answer.

    The movements in these type clocks will run on pendulums weighing from 6 pounds to 30 or so pounds. The six and ten pound bobs provide very little if any compensation to offset changing environmental conditions. Mercurial pendulums provide compensation based on the design of the pendulum. The metal used in the rod, jars, yoke and other parts of the pendulum has known properties of expansion at given temperatures. During the design process, the amount of mercury is calculated and must be of a certain height in the cylinders to provide proper compensation and thus better timekeeping.

    Why are there 15 and 30 pound mercurial pendulums for the same movement? I can't really answer that but a guess would be it has something to do with the design factor and possibly the diameter of the cylinders i. e. larger diameter requiring more mercury, thus more weight.

    The above is certainly not an adequate explanation and hopefully someone can provide a better answer.

    The rating nut is calibrated to provide a known adjustment to the timekeeping, such as one division equals one minute in 24 hours. This is based on 36 threads to the inch at the end of the rod and the nut graduated to 30 divisions.

    Some of these type clocks also had a metal tray above the pendulum bob on which small weights (supplied with the clock) weighing, the largest, 1 gram, the next in size 5 decagrams and the smallest two decagrams. These were placed on the tray while the pendulum is swinging and care must be taken not to disturb the swing of the pendulum. The five decagram weight will make the clock gain about one second per day and the other weights in proportion. This is the method of fine adjustment to be used after the clock is closely regulated.

    That's the best I can do...............
     
  7. Rogerstar1

    Rogerstar1 Registered User

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    Well put Richard T., and I thank you.
     
  8. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Hi
    Compensation is based on the fact that mercury expands about
    3 times as fast as other metals like iron, as temperature goes up.
    As the temperature goes up, the pendulum would expand and get
    longer. Since for a pendulum it is the center of monent that counts,
    if there were something that moved that center back up the
    pendulum the same amount as it moved down, it could be compensated.
    Earlier compensation used a fixed bob and something like a grid iron
    compensator, usually of iron and brass or zinc.
    Such compensators had problems with firction. At some point along the
    rod, there needed to be a bushing.
    Later compensators more directly move the bob. Such things as bi-metal
    strips were used. These were generally complicated and expensive to make.
    Then mercury bobs were used. Rather than move the rod, mercury
    in the bob could be used that when it expand with heat would move its
    center of mass up to compensate. Since it was a fluid, it would have
    no issues with friction. It had a high rate of expansion with temperature
    which meant it didn't need complicated folding like a grid iron.
    The diameter of the vials allowed more mass to move up meaning
    it didn't need to be as deep.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  9. Ingulphus

    Ingulphus Registered User

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    #9 Ingulphus, Dec 16, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2012
    The likelihood of getting the clock running and keeping time is high - these movements were built like tanks, and normal maintenance includes a basic cleaning, checking the bushings for wear and replacing as necessary, and checking the condition and position of the winding contact tips (they have a small area of platinum where the contact makes, which can pit and wear over the many years the clock was in service, especially if someone ran it on a higher voltage, or if a shunt failed) which could induce arcing at the contacts). For a thorough going-over, I highly recommend a member here, Frank Manning, who has serviced several of my Self Winding clocks and done an excellent job.

    The mainspring is wound once an hour by a vibrating motor as a contact on the hour arbor makes; the usual voltage for energizing the winding coils is 3 volts DC (although SWCC made coils for whatever voltage the customer wanted; I have a WWII sector clock that requires 24 volts. Start with 3 volts and slowly work your way up), and there are two simple options for supplying power: two D cells in a battery holder, or a replica #6 dry cell battery sold by Ken's Clock Clinic that uses two D cells and has some current regulating circuitry inside. He also sells a nifty impulser that looks like a dry cell, and provides the hourly time correction signal originally provided by Western Union. I've been using one for the last three years on my 80 beat advertising clock, and it keeps excellent time, once the pendulum's adjusted. Your clock should be very accurate indeed, and I'm very, very jealous that you have a mercurially-compensated pendulum! Here's several of my SWCCs; the very unusual table clock was a great find, but has been passed on to a fellow aficionado. The photo of the earlier style movement was before Frank rebuilt it for me.
     

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  10. Rogerstar1

    Rogerstar1 Registered User

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    007 (800x600).jpg 008 (800x600).jpg 008 (800x600).jpg 010 (800x600).jpg 011 (800x600).jpg 012 (800x600).jpg 013 (800x600).jpg 015 (600x800).jpg 016 (800x600) (2).jpg 017.jpg Some additional photographs of my new clock. Note the absence of minute and hour hands and the part that carries th weight of the aforementioned heavy and elaborate pendulum. No bell or springs in the works as pictured in other threads for this kind of clock. I await a response from Mr. Manning and anyone else with an insight or a part he may need should he undertake this project. And thank you for all of your comments. Incidently, this clock most recently hung on the wall of a furnished loft apartment in Tribeca, New York City that was leased to film star Drew Barrymore.
     
  11. Richard T.

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    It's hard to see but in photos No2 & 3 the suspension spring post can be seen. (A part of the cast iron bracket mounted to the back of the case). I can't tell if the spring is there or not. The pendulum hangs on the suspension spring ( horizontal pin) and the pendulum rod goes in the crutch fork.

    I don't know what you mean by "no bell or spring". The mainspring can be seen in photo No. 8.
     
  12. Richard T.

    Richard T. Deceased
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    Here are some additional photos.....
     

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  13. Rogerstar1

    Rogerstar1 Registered User

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    #13 Rogerstar1, Dec 16, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2012
    Ok, yes, I can see the 'spring' on the cast bracket fastened to the back of the clock case now that you explain it. Whatever it is that the hook at the pendulum rod top fastens on to this spring with IS missing, though fabricating it wouldn't appear to be awfully difficult to this rank amateur. Hands, too, can't be too hard to find or adapt. Any Idea what the on/off bar type lever evident in my picture #2 and #3 is supposed to control? I assumed this type of clock would strike a bell or gong on the hour but I gather then, perhaps not.

    Fundamentally I'm still a bit confused by these kinds of clocks. Back in elementary school I recall the principal's office (all too well!) where a large electric clock hung on the wall and was some how connected to wall clocks throughout the building's class rooms. No doubt the various wires running up the sides and out of my new clock case ran to and regulated these sort of classroom "slave" clocks. But if these clock systems were powered from the grid coming into the school (as of course the lighting was) why were batteries necessary? And self winding...where was the actual spring that was wound up? I'll have another look at my photo eight and the works themselves to see what you decribe as the "mainspring".

    I grasp that in a school environment even back then everyone had to know and operate off a standardardized time and that these systems made that possible. Wrist watches worn by teachers would have solved the problem far more easily in the mid-1950s and probably did by the 1960s.

    Thanks for your patience in educating me. I've ordered the book you mentioned. I hope Frank Manning is available to straighten this one out. I'm looking for the missing parts (hands), everyone, and also a SWCC slave clock matching the round, oak one belonging to Ingulphus that will illustrate the concept of these clock systems. If anyone knows where one can be had, PM me please. regards, Roger
     
  14. Rogerstar1

    Rogerstar1 Registered User

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    Wow! Those pics set a high standard. How accurate have you been able to get this clock running, Richard? Thanks for posting. I also wonder if you painted or had to do anything to your clock's face?

    Roger
     
  15. Richard T.

    Richard T. Deceased
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    These clocks do not have any kind of strike. You may notice in comparing your photos and my photos of the movement that you have the "synchronizer" on the upper right side of your movement. Mine doesn't have this. It could have been removed or wasn't there originally. (Some weren't). It was to synchronize slave clocks.

    I haven't checked my clock recently for accuracy but will give it a few "tweaks" and check it over the next couple of weeks. The dial on my clock has been replaced at some time prior to my having the clock. It's possible that someone may have replacement dials but I don't know who that would be.

    Your clock is missing the two brackets that would have held the original batteries. The mainspring is in the center of the movement and isn't very big. It is wound once an hour for about 15 to 20 seconds and will operate the clock for an hour or so if the batteries fail or there was no other external power available.
     
  16. Rogerstar1

    Rogerstar1 Registered User

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    #16 Rogerstar1, Dec 16, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2012
    Thank you Ingulphus for the information and the encouragement to say nothing of the photos. I hope to bring this clock back through the good offices of Frank Manning or like expert. Obviously these clocks are nuanced and require electrical expertise in addition to time piece knowledge. I lack both.

    Follow-up questions:

    1. With grid electrical power available by the 1930s, why did anyone bother with back-up battery systems?
    Let alone redundancy using batteries that would only run the system for and hour or so?

    2. Shipping mercury pendulums may violate federal law and be dangerous, too. How do I get my mecurized pendulum to the repair shop?

    3. How accurate is your SWCC clock when running optimally and in your confirmed experience? And what do you think may be possibble.

    4. In the upper lefthand corner of my case some one has scratched with an awl the numbers "15,14". Immediately following this is the die-stamped 13 evident in my first pic in this thread. Do these numbers tell you anything about my clock or might the numbers stamped into the works front plate: 94576 do that?

    5. Any idea what the cut-off bar switch does in the left side of my case?

    6. Any thoughts from the wires in my case the number of slave clocks my unit "ran"?

    7. Lastly, how the sychronizer worked in layman's terms.

    Thanks, anyone, for any further info you can supply me or info on what I'm up against in setting this clock right.

    Roger
     
  17. Richard T.

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    #17 Richard T., Dec 16, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2012
    Most of these clocks were prior to 1930.

    Mercury can be shipped thru commercial means, it just requires special handling, packaging etc. You can transport the pendulum yourself if required. It's best to keep it upright to minimize any chance of leakage. The screws on the vial tops should be tight but not tight enough that you risk "stripping" them.

    The Self Winding Clock Co, SWCC, was formed in 1886. They had a long standing relationship with Western Union Telegraph Co.

    In 1908 they had a catalog that was 146 pages of clocks of all descriptions.

    They discontinued operations in 1960.

    The case usually has a serial number plate attached to it. Under ideal conditions the case serial number and the movement serial are the same ( matching). My serial numbers match.

    Ly's American Clocks, Vol 2 has a special section on SWCC clocks and a lot of good information.
     
  18. jkfabulos

    jkfabulos Registered User
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    Just sent you a PM. Contact me concerning your clock.
     
  19. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    Read Goodrich's chapter on electric clocks
     
  20. Rogerstar1

    Rogerstar1 Registered User

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    Thank you for all of the information. I have one follow-up that can hopefully be answered by someone with a complete SWCC master clock like mine after inspection and measurement. The metal clock face that came (unattached) from my clock measures precisely 14.5 inches in diameter. The opening including the rabet in the oak wood clock case is exactly 15.25 inches in diameter...thus, the face is too small for it's opening. Although the metal face is secured by bolt to the works (movement) that in turn bolts to the cast iron bracket, a space still exists between the round face and the case opening. MY QUESTION IS: On original or correctly restored clocks of this kind should there be an additional ring into which the clock face can fit more precisely that mine is missing and if so what is it nade of? I am wondering whether my recent acquisition is missing a ring or whether the face may be the wrong one to fit my clock.
     
  21. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    It's obvious that the face is too small. There's several possibilities: the door may be missing a metal or wood "sight ring" which would have filled any space between the metal face or or the correct face was substituted ith the small one.
    In fact, the entire movement may have been substituted as your snapshot of the back side of the movment shows that the "crutch" or part that has a fork to engage the pendulum appears to be the plain wire crutch that has been modified to engage with a round metal pendulum rod instead of a slotted wood stick.

    You may opt for a larger face but make sure the minute chapter ring isn't too large for the 15-1/4" opening in the door. The minute hand tip should just touch the middle of the minute chapter ring on the face. In my opinion I think a 16" face with the 12 or 13 inch chapter ring would be proper.

    There are specialists who can re-create clock faces exactly and precisely often for less money than the cost of an exact original that may need retouching. The missing hands are a problem that go with the face.
     
  22. Richard T.

    Richard T. Deceased
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    As previously stated I have two SWCC master clocks. The dials on both are square, 14 1/2" x 14 1/2". Photos of both are shown below.
     

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  23. Alan

    Alan Registered User
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    Your door is missing the trim ring. SWCC door with trim ring.jpg SWCC trim ring.jpg
     
  24. Rogerstar1

    Rogerstar1 Registered User

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    Bingo! You've nailed it, Alan...no trim ring. Now to go about finding one or fabricating a replacement. Any names or addresses where I might begin my search....for a set of hands as well. And thank you, Sir


    Roger
     
  25. jkfabulos

    jkfabulos Registered User
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    If you can find one to borrow or get a detailed dimensioned drawing any good wood pattern shop or custom wood turning shop can make you a replacement. I have had several made over the years and they cost in the neighborhood of $175 depending how picky you are concerning the construction and glue up of the pieces as to duplicate the original design. It would be white oak (as opposed to red) as the rest of the case. You would have to have it colored to you case and finished to match.
    Hands are basically the same as Seth Thomas and would have been the standard spade type which are quite common and show up on Ebay quite often. Make sure you get the type with bushings in both hands. If the bushings are not correct in size just get your clockmaker machinist to fit them up to your movement or if necessary make a new set of bushings to fit.
     
  26. Rogerstar1

    Rogerstar1 Registered User

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  27. Rogerstar1

    Rogerstar1 Registered User

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    I'm making good progress in getting my SWCC wall clock restored. I've had to purchase 'new to me' minute and hour hands. The minute hand with the square hole fits perfectly but the hour hand hole is too small. I assume this is called a brass bushing and I need one with a larger inner hole but an identical outer diameter. Questions:

    1. Dare I ream out the 'too small' hour hand bushing hole with an electric drill bit or rat tail file or will that tear the entire thing up?
    2. If I must buy a new bearing does anyone know of a source? And will I need special tools to remove the old brass bushing and press in a new one?
    3. What is the correct clock making term for the shaft bearing I need?
    4. Does anyone know what size a SWCC movement like mine takes?
    5. My micrometer seems to me to indicate the hour hand shaft measures 7 milimeters. Am I reading it correctly?
    6. My minute hand is held on with a tiny and fine threaded nut. Several of my other clocks using the same attachment arrangement also have a 'pan shaped brass washer' (with a slight bowl like curvature) between the nut and the hand. Should my SWCC clock have one also and what function does this seemingly inconsequetial washer serve?

    The photograph in my post above hopefully will be revealing and immediately below I'll attempt posting two more thumbnails. Thanks to all who can supply me any advice.

    On second thought in light of how shakey I am in posting anything at all to this forum let me first post this written note and follow up with a few pictures meant to illustrate.

    many thanks fr. Roger
     
  28. Rogerstar1

    Rogerstar1 Registered User

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    Ill focused photo won't help much but perhaps viewers can make out my hour hand leaning against the shaft it would be mounted on but for it's too small aperture.

    The aforementioned cupped washer...if it is required or advisable....should it be installed convex to the room or the opposite way, concave to the room (ie: the backside of the nut.)?

    thanks all,
    Roger
     

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  29. Rogerstar1

    Rogerstar1 Registered User

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    My micrometer photo was a complete bust so I've not even posted it.

    Here is a company that supplies the old wavy, rippled glass that looks so dramatically better than present day panes...particularly when reflecting candlelight:

    http://www.restorationglass.com/index.htm

    RD
     
  30. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    Fr. Roger. Don't attempt to ream the inside of the short or hour hand socket (ferule) which is not a solid brass bushing but instead a formed brass tapered "socket."
    The "shaft bearing" that carries the hour hand is the "hour pipe" part of part number F. 95, the "Hour wheel complete."
    The nut holding the minute hand to the center arbor is an odd thread....almost near a 3-48 thread but not quite. The nut is part number F. 96 "Center Arbor Nut."

    You really should have the "Schedule of Parts for the Style F synchronized movements as in the attached pdf file.
    Adobe reader should open the file.
     

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  31. Rogerstar1

    Rogerstar1 Registered User

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    Thank you Eckmill. Do you know whether any of these parts are readily available and if so where?

    Roger
     
  32. Rogerstar1

    Rogerstar1 Registered User

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    I see what I need is the proper hour hand for my clock. It seems the one I have can't be made to fit...or seems highly unlikely that it can be.

    Roger
     
  33. Rogerstar1

    Rogerstar1 Registered User

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    #33 Rogerstar1, Jan 14, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2013
    2 photos of an hour hand I'm working with. Do SWCC Model F clocks require an altogether different style of hour hand? Anybody have any idea how far the correctly mounted hour hand needs to slide back on the faintly conical shaft (socket) refernced above?

    NOTE: My hour hand can be viewed in these two photographs leaning/resting upon what I refer to as the faintly conical shaft (socket) otherwise called the 'hour pipe' that it is supposed to fit up on.


    Roger
     

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  34. Rogerstar1

    Rogerstar1 Registered User

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  35. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    I think I understand your hour hand problem. I've gathered some samples of SWCC hands and the hour wheel and canon socket F94 and F 95.

    I am unaware of any commonly used SWCC hour hands that are made with a solid collet, all I've seen are of the stamped brass split friction collet although other combinations are possible.

    The ferule on the hour hand just fits nicely over the tapered hour pipe and just inside the 9-32" hole in the drill gauge shown in the scans below.
    (I have found that sets of hole gauges, both inch and metric are much simpler to use than micrometers)
     

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  36. Rogerstar1

    Rogerstar1 Registered User

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    Thank you, Les.
     
  37. Rogerstar1

    Rogerstar1 Registered User

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    I am having one heck of a time getting my SWCC wall clock to self wind using a battery supplied by Ken's Clockshop. The works have een gone through by Frank Manning so I know they should work flawlessly. When I connect the wires, I get nothing....no click, spark or whrrring sound.

    I am told the wires from the top of the battery connect to terminals on the left side of the works (of which there are only two) and that polarity does not matter as they can be attaced either way. I've tried this and neither works for me. I'm going to try and post a photo of what I'm talking about but haven't posted in awhile so I am not certain I'll be able to. Failing to do that, I could readily email photographs to an email address if anyone has the interest and capacity to set me straight. As ever, thanks so much for any and all insights. Roger Durban in Washington, DC
     

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  38. Rogerstar1

    Rogerstar1 Registered User

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    Thankfully, my three photographs posted ok.....
     
  39. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Roger, do you have a voltmeter? First thing I would check is the voltage on your wires coming out of the battery pack.
     
  40. Rogerstar1

    Rogerstar1 Registered User

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    no...no voltmeter but the battery came with a charger so perhaps I can use the light on that to determine if the battery is fully charged as I was led to believe. Harold, does it look to you like the wires are attached to the right terminals? And, thank you! Roger
     
  41. Rogerstar1

    Rogerstar1 Registered User

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    Harold...you may have identified my problem. Just hooked up the charger and the red light came on indicating it is taking a charge. Full charge takes up to ten hours instructions say so we'll see how long it stays lit. Light goes off when fully charged instrucions say...Thanks again.
     
  42. harold bain

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    Yes, your connections look correct, Roger. If you could buy or borrow a cheap voltmeter (a multimeter would be best), it would help you troubleshoot your problem. An ohm meter would also be handy to check the wiring for continuity, so a multimeter could come in handy.
     
  43. Rogerstar1

    Rogerstar1 Registered User

    Jul 28, 2011
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    ok...will do. And Ken just answered my earlier email with this insightful note:

    Roger,

    You are missing the manual winding switch. Yes you have it connected for power, but a switch needs to be installed between the upper terminal (in addition to the white wire already there) and the movement frame. The movement may have wound down and will not rewind automatically without this switch. The original switches was a simple brass reed (connected to the upper terminal with the white wire) which was depressed to contact a screw connected to a wire going to the frame.


    That's my suggestion.


    Ken

    THANKS EVERYBODY!

    Roger
     
  44. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Good stuff, Roger. I've never seen one with this switch. There is a ratchet wheel in the movement that can be manually advanced with finger pressure to wind the clock manually. Follow the minute arbor to between the movement plates to find it. It will wind counter clockwise.
     
  45. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Correction, Roger, it winds clockwise (just checked mine to verify it).:whistle:
     
  46. Rogerstar1

    Rogerstar1 Registered User

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    #46 Rogerstar1, Mar 17, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2014
    The charging light extinguished in 15 minutes so I reconnected the battery to the clock. Proceeding to wind it clockwise and carefully by finger and starting up the pendulum swinging....it ran per usual and then, after five minutes or so the thing buzzed and wound itself.....first time in 25 or more years. That was a thrill to say the least The winding buzz is louder than I would have thought. This large and heavy clock hung, neither ticking nor tocking on the wall of a $12,000 per month, 5th Floor loft in Tribeca New York City rented by Drew Barrymore. I was fortunate that it came to me for $200. And fortunate for the assistance from Ken, Frank Manning and you Harold and others of this forum in setting it right. Thanks and good night. (with fingers crossed that it will still be running in the morning - usually takes some time for my confidence level to rise. ;)
     
  47. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Good stuff, Roger. Certainly a clock worth bringing back to life.:thumb::thumb:
     
  48. Rogerstar1

    Rogerstar1 Registered User

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    7:00 AM....still ticking and self-winding beautifully.
     
  49. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Fascinating thread. Just found it. That's a beautiful clock Roger! Would love to hear that clock running. Youtube video?.. maybe.
    Looks like it would be a very slow beat.
    Dave
     
  50. Rogerstar1

    Rogerstar1 Registered User

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    Thanks Dave. I lack the capacity to video tape it with audibles at the moment. It's running well but quick until I can lower the bob a little. It is a 60 beat per minute movement I wished I'd have weighed this clock before hanging it on the wall. It would not surprise me if it tips the scales at over 80 pounds. Does anybody know? One design flaw seems to me is the hands - very difficult to keep them away from one another and untangled with the seconds bit. Roger
     

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