Selecting the Correct Tool for Bushing Movements

[aesellitto]

Hello all,
I am starting to do some research into hand style reamers for bushing replacement. I am new to this, so I am asking for opinions and/or pros and cons on the required tools. I will add that I work on mostly American movements (Seth Thomas, Waterbury, etc…) and I need to go the hand route for tools at this time. I am leaning towards the KWM or the Bergeon hand reamers. What I noticed is that the Bergeon style reamer is less costly to purchase the tool, but more costly to purchase the bushings as compared to the KWM. The KWM is more expensive to buy the tool but less costly to purchase the bushings. I am also open to getting a set of broaching tools also but I am a little taken aback with being able to select the proper bushing by going that route. It seems that the KWM or Bergeon route makes it simpler to select the correct bushing size. Any help or insight is greatly appreciated!!!

 

[bangster]

Re: Selecting teh Correct Tool for Bushing Movements

I use KWM bushings and reamers, because that's what I started out with. Had no reason to change.

 

[shutterbug]

Re: Selecting teh Correct Tool for Bushing Movements

Either is fine, but be sure you learn about how to center them in the ovaled hole. KWM has a smaller footprint than Bergeon, which is why many use them. I started with Bergeon and still use them.

 

[David S]

Re: Selecting teh Correct Tool for Bushing Movements

I selected the KWM system and went with the US made set of reamers since they were quite a bit less expensive than the KWM set. And yes I like the smaller OD compared with the Bergeon system.

 

[aesellitto]

Re: Selecting teh Correct Tool for Bushing Movements

I selected the KWM system and went with the US made set of reamers since they were quite a bit less expensive than the KWM set. And yes I like the smaller OD compared with the Bergeon system.

I was leaning towards the KWM system too. I have looked at what Timesavers has for reamers other than the KWM, does anyone have a suggestion of any other companys that sell decent products. I don't want to go the eBay route on these. There are way too many "foreign" companies that sell less than quality items there and I prefer not to fall into one of them and ruin my first bushing job due to poor quality tools.

 

[shutterbug]

Re: Selecting teh Correct Tool for Bushing Movements

Bergeon IS Foreign

 

[R&A]

Re: Selecting teh Correct Tool for Bushing Movements

What you have been told pretty much sums it up. TimeSavers is pretty close to much of the market. Unless you want to buy from Meritt's and between the 2 you can make your choice. Merritt's is 1-800-345-4101. You may spend more for KWM tools. But in the long run the bushings are cheaper and it will save you money. When you start ordering in quantity it adds up. I use a bushing gauge and I always know what bushings I am using. Plus I have the trays and it helps to know what bushing I am down on for ordering.. Doing clocks is like owning a boat. Boat stands for bring out another thousand.

H/C

 

[David S]

Re: Selecting teh Correct Tool for Bushing Movements

I was leaning towards the KWM system too. I have looked at what Timesavers has for reamers other than the KWM, does anyone have a suggestion of any other companys that sell decent products. I don't want to go the eBay route on these. There are way too many "foreign" companies that sell less than quality items there and I prefer not to fall into one of them and ruin my first bushing job due to poor quality tools.

I bought mine from Perrin's http://www.perrinwatchparts.com/cat_name/kwm_bushing_tools.aspx

The product code is 24-660

 

[hookster]

Re: Selecting teh Correct Tool for Bushing Movements

I bought mine from Perrins as well. Their service is excellent. I chose Bergeon because they had an adaptor which can allow you to use the reamers in a regular mini drill press. Having said that, I still do most of them by hand.

 

[Willie X]

Re: Selecting teh Correct Tool for Bushing Movements

There is a pretty fresh thread on the 'tools' forum of this list. It's probably near the bottom of the first page by now.

I sent in my recommendations, KMW bushings, KMW #3 cutter with Bergeon mount, and Bergeon handle. The originator of the thread wanted Ronnell part numbers so that is what I supplied.

If you want numbers for another supplier I will gladly supply them if you wish. If you are not familiar with all the items it is difficult to know exactly what to order.

Willie X

 

[Willie X]

Re: Selecting teh Correct Tool for Bushing Movements

That bushing tool thread on the tools forum was posted on 11/28/12 by cazeboy. It's second up, from the bottom, of the first page.

Willie X

 

[MARK A. BUTTERWORTH]

Re: Selecting teh Correct Tool for Bushing Movements

I was leaning towards the KWM system too. I have looked at what Timesavers has for reamers other than the KWM, does anyone have a suggestion of any other companys that sell decent products. I don't want to go the eBay route on these. There are way too many "foreign" companies that sell less than quality items there and I prefer not to fall into one of them and ruin my first bushing job due to poor quality tools.

In my mind, two things are critical for a good bushing job. One is to recenter badly worn pivot holes. For that a round file will suffice. The other is to make certain that one reams or drills the hole a true vertical. It is very difficult to do that with a hand reamer on a consistent basis. A jig might help and several places sell them including Timesavers, although I have not used one personally. I encourage anyone to consider a real machine whether it is a drill press (what we use) or mill or bushing machine once funds allow. I might mention that I think the Keystone bushing machine is the best for the money. It is sold and made by Mile Hi clocks. It can be used with both Bergeon and KWM. Nothing in it for me.

 

[shutterbug]

Re: Selecting teh Correct Tool for Bushing Movements

I hadn't heard of Mile Hi Clocks before. Here's a link.

 

[bangster]

Re: Selecting teh Correct Tool for Bushing Movements

Either is fine, but be sure you learn about how to center them in the ovaled hole. KWM has a smaller footprint than Bergeon, which is why many use them. I started with Bergeon and still use them.

See

Bushing Using Hand Tools

 

[Richmccarty]

Re: Selecting teh Correct Tool for Bushing Movements

The other is to make certain that one reams or drills the hole a true vertical. It is very difficult to do that with a hand reamer on a consistent basis.

I don't know where this myth comes from. If you use tapered cutting broaches with longish handles it's really quite easy. I believe that is much better to rely on ones hands, eyes and mind instead of the false precision of a fake machine tool like a bushing machine or an aluminum and plastic mini-mill. If you learn how to use your hands, your eyes and mind will follow. Fitting bushes is something that you need to get a feel for, no measurement required.

Best,
Rich McCarty

http://www.clockconservation.com

 

[harold bain]

Re: Selecting teh Correct Tool for Bushing Movements

I don't know where this myth comes from. If you use tapered cutting broaches with longish handles it's really quite easy. I believe that is much better to rely on ones hands, eyes and mind instead of the false precision of a fake machine tool like a bushing machine or an aluminum and plastic mini-mill. If you learn how to use your hands, your eyes and mind will follow. Fitting bushes is something that you need to get a feel for, no measurement required.

Best,
Rich McCarty

http://www.clockconservation.com

Sounds like a zen thing, Rich. Become the clock movement.
But I do understand what you are saying, with practice, it becomes second nature. But the same can be said of using any machine that makes the job quicker.

 

[shutterbug]

Re: Selecting teh Correct Tool for Bushing Movements

I've done it both ways, Rich. I much prefer the bushing machine for speed and accuracy.

 

[David S]

Re: Selecting teh Correct Tool for Bushing Movements

So far I have mostly using the 2.7mm KWM bushes. I prefer to use a 2.5mm center cutting end mill to make the first cut, and then like Rich I hand ream to the final dimension. I am not in any hurry.

 

[R. Croswell]

Re: Selecting teh Correct Tool for Bushing Movements

In my mind, two things are critical for a good bushing job. One is to recenter badly worn pivot holes. For that a round file will suffice. The other is to make certain that one reams or drills the hole a true vertical. It is very difficult to do that with a hand reamer on a consistent basis. A jig might help and several places sell them including Timesavers, although I have not used one personally. I encourage anyone to consider a real machine whether it is a drill press (what we use) or mill or bushing machine once funds allow. I might mention that I think the Keystone bushing machine is the best for the money. It is sold and made by Mile Hi clocks. It can be used with both Bergeon and KWM. Nothing in it for me.

I agree completely! Sometimes those with the least experience benefit the most form the best tools. Some old-time carpenters do beautiful work and can cut a 45 degree miter joint with a hand saw - me, I’m what is commonly known as a wood butcher and I need the electric miter saw to come anywhere near an acceptable job. With proper technique one can learn over time to do an acceptable bushing job with hand tools, but I suspect there are a lot of clocks running today with hand-bushed pivot holes where the bushings are not precisely perpendicular to the plates. My recommendation is if one plans to service more than just a few of their own clocks, one would do well to drop the bucks on a bushing machine of some type. I use the Bergeon system because I found one on eBay at an almost reasonable price some years ago. I see no compelling reason to select one brand over another; it comes down to personal preference.

RC

 

[leeinv66]

Re: Selecting teh Correct Tool for Bushing Movements

I am in the hand bushing camp. I setup a drill press to do it, but found by the time I got ready to ream a hole, I could have already finished the whole job by hand. I understand what Rich is talking about when he says fitting bushings is something that you get a feel for.

 

[MARK A. BUTTERWORTH]

Re: Selecting teh Correct Tool for Bushing Movements

I am in the hand bushing camp. I setup a drill press to do it, but found by the time I got ready to ream a hole, I could have already finished the whole job by hand. I understand what Rich is talking about when he says fitting bushings is something that you get a feel for.

To me, there is nothing to set up on the drill press. Whether you use modified drills for brass or use a drill press adapter for the reamers, it is drill a hole. One can get the drill press adapter from any bushing supplier including us. We put the plate on a piece of PVC coupling. Check out our u tube on using a drill press for bushing. I think if you type in Rochdale1725 it brings them all up.

 

[shutterbug]

Re: Selecting teh Correct Tool for Bushing Movements

I think it would be especially important to file the opposite side of the ovaled hole if using a drill press. Not so much with a bushing machine if you lock the plate down and go slowly until the "good" side of the hole is cut away and the hole becomes round. Of course, the looser the bushing machine the more impractical that gets

 

[aesellitto]

Re: Selecting teh Correct Tool for Bushing Movements

In my mind, two things are critical for a good bushing job. One is to recenter badly worn pivot holes. For that a round file will suffice. The other is to make certain that one reams or drills the hole a true vertical. It is very difficult to do that with a hand reamer on a consistent basis. A jig might help and several places sell them including Timesavers, although I have not used one personally. I encourage anyone to consider a real machine whether it is a drill press (what we use) or mill or bushing machine once funds allow. I might mention that I think the Keystone bushing machine is the best for the money. It is sold and made by Mile Hi clocks. It can be used with both Bergeon and KWM. Nothing in it for me.

Thanks for the advice. I just watched the video on the Butterworth bushing sysytem. Can you give me more information on it? It really seems simple and cost effective. I don't do high volume repairs so it really intriqued me but I can't seem to find any information on where to purchase it.

 

[shutterbug]

Re: Selecting teh Correct Tool for Bushing Movements

Thanks for the advice. I just watched the video on the Butterworth bushing sysytem. Can you give me more information on it? It really seems simple and cost effective. I don't do high volume repairs so it really intriqued me but I can't seem to find any information on where to purchase it.

I don't think Mark intended to imply that it's a system you can purchase - it's a standard (but not cheap) drill press fitted with bushing reamers.

 

[Willie X]

Re: Selecting teh Correct Tool for Bushing Movements

Of course, the looser the bushing machine the more impractical that gets

ALL bushing tools are plagued with 'flex' and a sloppy spindle. You HAVE to file or 'nibble' the ovaled hole back to center before you give it what for with the hand wheel. Same with a drill press.

One big plus for either machine over hand work is that the hole will be upright. Fortunately this isn't that important, as long as it is 'close' to being upright. A slight broach will align the hole to perpendicular. Maintaining the original center is what you need to spend your time and effort on.

Willie X

 

[leeinv66]

Re: Selecting teh Correct Tool for Bushing Movements

To me, there is nothing to set up on the drill press. Whether you use modified drills for brass or use a drill press adapter for the reamers, it is drill a hole. One can get the drill press adapter from any bushing supplier including us. We put the plate on a piece of PVC coupling. Check out our u tube on using a drill press for bushing. I think if you type in Rochdale1725 it brings them all up.

I watched the clip on YouTube Mark and you make it look easy. If I was to try and do it at the same pace, I'm not sure the new holes would be where they were supposed to be. Plus, I don’t have the quick change reamers that you use. If I was replacing bushings day in and day out, it would make more sense for me to practise and perfect you method. As I don’t, I’ll stick with my faithful old hand tool and my.

 

[shutterbug]

Re: Selecting teh Correct Tool for Bushing Movements

ALL bushing tools are plagued with 'flex' and a sloppy spindle. You HAVE to file or 'nibble' the ovaled hole back to center before you give it what for with the hand wheel.

Kind of defeats the purpose of a center finder then, don't it??

 

[Jerry Kieffer]

Re: Selecting teh Correct Tool for Bushing Movements

Kind of defeats the purpose of a center finder then, don't it??

Shutterbug

You pretty much hit the nail on the head.

When I have used hand methods, bushing tools and drill presses, I always hoped for the best but nothing was assured.

I now use a milling machine as used in the manufacturing process for bushing work as well as all other machine work in conjunction with a lathe. The Mill allows you to accurately predetermine the correct location and then assures the hole will be reamed and or machined with a Endmill in that exact location. It also offers practical and efficient methods of correcting ones own mistakes and the mistakes of others with the least amount of visible obstruction.

Jerry Kieffer

 

[Willie X]

Re: Selecting teh Correct Tool for Bushing Movements

Kind of defeats the purpose of a center finder then, don't it??

Yes, If you do a lot of bushing work you probably won't use the center finder or the plate dogs. I just sit the plate on the big holed stump and have at it with the ole number III cutter. First nibbling and then full turns. Pretty much the same thing Mark is doing. The work will be good quality, if you have the experience. A one ton arbor press, with a similar stump, and a flat nose pusher in the arbor ram will make quick work of popping in the bushings. A medium size drill press can be used in the same way. With this arrangement you never have to stop and change anything. Just cut all the holes and then press in all the bushings.

After the bushings are all in, I sort of slow down and take my time fitting the bushings to the pinions and checking how everything works. I do single arbors, then pairs, and finally the whole train. Sometimes I skip the pairs part.

Willie X

Willie X

 

[shutterbug]

Re: Selecting teh Correct Tool for Bushing Movements

I now use a milling machine as used in the manufacturing process for bushing work as well as all other machine work in conjunction with a lathe. The Mill allows you to accurately predetermine the correct location and then assures the hole will be reamed and or machined with a Endmill in that exact location. It also offers practical and efficient methods of correcting ones own mistakes and the mistakes of others with the least amount of visible obstruction.

Jerry Kieffer

Still on on wish list, Jerry For now I just have to make do with what I have.