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Seeking more bushing advice

Thurmond

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Got my 1st bushing project clock all assembled (ST89). Running great!

Onto a Gilbert (stamped 373, movement id?) that looks to be a knock off of the ST89 but even more cheaply made. Appears like its had a hard life - many bushings will need to be replaced and lots of dirty oil all over the place. Perfect clock for me to continue practicing bushing replacement.

I'm wondering if I'm about to step into the deep end with this one (see pixs below). Specifically:

- Is the bushing (with red arrow pointing at it) going to give me trouble being so close to the edge of the plate?

- Is the bushing that has been peened 5 times into place going to be difficult to center and reem?

The pinions on these two locations are loose but not by a large amount. I'd rather leave them alone if there is a good chance that I'm going to butcher the clock.

I'm probably worrying too much - its a $25 flea market find that I bought as a practice clock, but I haven't lost one yet and would like to keep it that way.

Thanks,

Thurmond





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wow

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Thurmond, I think you should go ahead and bite the bullet and do it right. That one in the second photo has been punched but it can be bushed. The punch marks may not all be removed but it can be bushed like any other bushing. All the rest look like normal bushing jobs. Just mark the direction of the wear and make your first couple of cuts in the opposite direction till the hole is round. Then just ream away. Are you hand bushing?
 
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Willie X

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That first photo appears to be the motion works gear. No need to bush that one, it operates at about zero load and needs to be on the loose side anyway.

Most Gilbert's are easy to work on.

Willie X
 

Thurmond

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Most Gilbert's are easy to work on.

Willie X
Definitely easier than that ST89. The coil springs (wires) have been replaced with leaf springs. And the mechanical linkages are all stamped steel (vs stiff bent wire rods acting like fishing hooks). Lots easier to disassemble without parts suddenly jumping out. I can see that re-assembly is going to be easy.

Any comments on the similarity between the Seth Thomas and the Gilbert? Did one company borrow the mechanical strategy from the other or this was just the way most manufactures made a striking movement?

Thurmond
 

wow

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Gilbert’s are notorious for having cracked canon pinions on the main arbor causing the hands to slip. If yours is cracked, there are tons of threads on this forum about repairing it. Other than that, I find them pretty straight forward.
 
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shutterbug

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The problem with punches like that is that you can't be sure of the proper center. I can see that the edge of the plate is distorted outward, so the center might be also. After you get it bushed look closely at the gear to pinion alignment (depthing).
 

R. Croswell

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I agree with Willie, the pivot hole at the red arrow would be challenging to bush and probably isn't necessary for the reason stated. Gilbert, Seth Thomas, Sessions, Waterbury, et al were all similar in design but not direct copies (as are several Japanese makes). Seth Thomas is one of the oldest American makers of brass movements so I'm sure that others "borrowed" some of his designs, but each maker is uniquely different. Gilberts and Ingrahams had a problem with cannon pinions cracking, Sessions had cheaply made clicks that fail more often, New Haven used a different strike control system, etc. All of the mass-produced models were made down to a minimal price and I can't say that any one was significantly better than the rest. Most lasted about 100 years before wearing out which is not bad. Many of the older wooden works clocks are still going after nearly 200 years which is even more amazing.

RC
 

Thurmond

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The problem with punches like that is that you can't be sure of the proper center. I can see that the edge of the plate is distorted outward, so the center might be also. After you get it bushed look closely at the gear to pinion alignment (depthing).
Thanks all for all the information ... and I feel like I'm on the edge of another big purchase.

The depthing tool seems like a necessary tool to perform 100% proper repairs - yes/no? It might be a little over the top for a clock of this quality/value but I'm getting the impression that I'm going to need it sooner or later.

I also inspected the cannon pinion for cracks and it appears to be fine.

I did notice two parallel grooves cut in a twisted fashion on the main arbor. Was this a cheap way to create the friction between the cannon pinion and the arbor?

Capture.JPG
 

wow

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Thanks all for all the information ... and I feel like I'm on the edge of another big purchase.

The depthing tool seems like a necessary tool to perform 100% proper repairs - yes/no? It might be a little over the top for a clock of this quality/value but I'm getting the impression that I'm going to need it sooner or later.

I also inspected the cannon pinion for cracks and it appears to be fine.

I did notice two parallel grooves cut in a twisted fashion on the main arbor. Was this a cheap way to create the friction between the cannon pinion and the arbor?

View attachment 690176
I have a depthing tool but seldomly use it. It is great if a bushing has been installed off center but I don’t use mine except where a mistake has been made.They are quite expensive. I would try to work toward a lathe and/or mill. Also a good spring winder and perhaps a bushing machine.
On the pinion, the small one is the one that usually cracks. We can’t see it in the photo. Check it carefully. Those grooves look like someone may have removed that pinion and made the grooves doing so:???:
 

Thurmond

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I have a depthing tool but seldomly use it. It is great if a bushing has been installed off center but I don’t use mine except where a mistake has been made.They are quite expensive. I would try to work toward a lathe and/or mill. Also a good spring winder and perhaps a bushing machine.
On the pinion, the small one is the one that usually cracks. We can’t see it in the photo. Check it carefully. Those grooves look like someone may have removed that pinion and made the grooves doing so:???:
Hi Will,

I think you are correct about the grooves. After running the parts through the cleaner, they are really difficult to see. I think some grit/debris may have been dragged through some old grease upon disassembly (dismantling?).

Not having seen the crack problem before, I'm not 100% where to inspect but I don't see any cracks anywhere under the loupe.

Thurmond

1.JPG

2.JPG 3.JPG 4.JPG
 

Uhralt

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If the minute hand doesn't slip, no crack-you are fine.

Uhralt
 
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wow

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Hi Will,

I think you are correct about the grooves. After running the parts through the cleaner, they are really difficult to see. I think some grit/debris may have been dragged through some old grease upon disassembly (dismantling?).

Not having seen the crack problem before, I'm not 100% where to inspect but I don't see any cracks anywhere under the loupe.

Thurmond

View attachment 690218

View attachment 690220 View attachment 690221 View attachment 690222
Yep. Looks good. No crack. Someone must have replaced it already.
 

shutterbug

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You can make a depthing tool from a door hinge. Do a search here for detailed information on how to make one.
 

R. Croswell

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Steven Conover in his book, Clock Repair Skills, Chapter 12 "Using the depthing tool" describes how the depthing tool can be useful and demonstrates the shortcomings and limitations. Perhaps most importantly he describes a method to check if the depthing tool is accurate. After setting a bushing according to the depthing tool he commented, "I have three depthing tools, one of which is a prototype. None of the three tools passed the test.............The error I had made in placing the first pivot hole had been 'entirely' due to the fact that the runners were not parallel.............An accurate depthjing tool is a very effective one for our work, but a tool that doesn't have parallel jaws will cause problems.

I question whether the average home mechanic using ordinary hand tools can construct a depthing tool from a door hinge with sufficient accuracy to be of much use. The tips of the runners must be precisely the same distance apart as the center of the pivots being held in the tool. The "test" Conover described and attributed to Laurie Penman is to scribe a circle with the runner points on one, then turn the tool over and see if the runner points on the other end scribe the same circle. That of course proves nothing unless the holes for the runners were line-bored and parallel. I've read others who say that none of the currently available and popular depthing tools are accurate enough to be reliable.

Jerry Kieffer I believe described what is likely a more accurate depthing method for locating pivot holes using a Sherline mill. A good quality depting tool, if one can be found, may cost nearly as much as a basic Sherline mill and is only useful for one thing. Consider saving you money and put it toward a tool that will be used for many things.

RC
 
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Thurmond

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Thanks everybody for the feedback and advice.

I agree that a depthing tool shouldn't be at the top of my tool list, especially since I don't even have a spring winder yet.

I like the 'Ollie Baker' type of spring winder but they aren't in stock anywhere. Timesaver will put you on a waiting list and will ship them as they come in. Wonder who makes them and why the lack of inventory. I suppose the generic answer is Covid and supply chain. Things are really getting bad if you can't even buy a spring winder ...

Thurmond
 

wow

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Thanks everybody for the feedback and advice.

I agree that a depthing tool shouldn't be at the top of my tool list, especially since I don't even have a spring winder yet.

I like the 'Ollie Baker' type of spring winder but they aren't in stock anywhere. Timesaver will put you on a waiting list and will ship them as they come in. Wonder who makes them and why the lack of inventory. I suppose the generic answer is Covid and supply chain. Things are really getting bad if you can't even buy a spring winder ...

Thurmond
Thurmond if you do a search on eBay for Ollie baker, there are four for sale now.
 

shutterbug

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I'd be a bit uneasy with the spring hook, Elliott. It should be stronger.
 

Elliott Wolin

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I'd be a bit uneasy with the spring hook, Elliott. It should be stronger.
That hook is made out of incredibly hard, strong, and thick stainless (I think) piano wire. I couldn't cut it with diagonal pliers, it was harder than the pliers and put dents into its cutting edges. I had to use a grinding wheel to cut it. Bending it was not easy, either. It seems extremely strong to me. I suppose the act of bending it could have caused an incipient crack at the bend, though.

My thinking is that the force on the wire holding the spring is really not that much compared to the strength of the wire. But maybe I'll take your advice and come up with something obviously stronger/safer.

In any case, when I use it I wear heavy leather gloves and a full face shield.
 

Willie X

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Bugs is trying to prevent you from having an accident! I would listen, or you may just like to do your learning th hard way.:???: Willie X
 

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