Seeking Help on Identity of this movement on Tiffany Watch

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by Jerry Cibley, Mar 4, 2020.

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. For the new NAWCC home page
    Click this image at the upper left corner of this page.
  1. Jerry Cibley

    Jerry Cibley New Member

    Feb 26, 2020
    3
    0
    1
    Male
    Country Flag:
    This watch is a Tiffany & Company 18k solid gold case and the s/n is consistent with a Patek. I have been advised by a Facebook watch page that the movement is probably a Koehn but, the S/n 111357 is not found in any of my Koehn searches.

    I am trying to get an extract from Patek, but having a dog of a time getting it to process my credit card. Please bear in mind the serial number of 111357 (i think it has validity) It is marked on case and movement as well.

    I believe the S/n date range is 1895-1900. Any help would be appreciated. DSC01629.JPG IMG_0686.jpg IMG_0688.jpg IMG_0689.jpg tiffany_Movement.jpg Tiffany Front.jpg
     
  2. Dr. Jon

    Dr. Jon Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 14, 2001
    5,665
    427
    83
    Aerospace Engineer
    New Hampshire
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Welcome to the message board.

    Nice watch and hopefully Patek will verify it, but this would surprise me. I do not think this one is by Patek or Koehn.

    It looks like Badollet to me.
     
  3. Ethan Lipsig

    Ethan Lipsig Registered User
    NAWCC Gold Member

    Jan 8, 2006
    2,062
    1,197
    113
    Male
    80% Retired Attorney
    Pasadena
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #3 Ethan Lipsig, Mar 4, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2020
    Jerry, your watch is a small ladies watch. I have a JJ Badollet ladies watch (a Bigelow Kennard PL) the movement of which is fairly similar to your watch's movement. This somewhat supports Dr. Jon's surmise.

    upload_2020-3-4_13-4-21.jpeg
     
    Telelucă Cristian and MrRoundel like this.
  4. Dr. Jon

    Dr. Jon Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 14, 2001
    5,665
    427
    83
    Aerospace Engineer
    New Hampshire
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I still think the ebauche started with Badollet but now I think Agassiz finished it for Tiffany. Here is why

    492299-a82ebc2044a3383b020a2ac7f19d84ae.jpg

    Note that even click matches and the serial numbers are close.

    Jerry's watch still could be by Patek but I think Agassiz is more likely.

    mvt_full_s.jpg
     
    MrRoundel and roughbarked like this.
  5. Jerry Cibley

    Jerry Cibley New Member

    Feb 26, 2020
    3
    0
    1
    Male
    Country Flag:
    Just heard from Patek and they say the serial number that I provided points to a different watch and it is not a Patek. I am leaning more toward Agassiz but am wondering if there is a database of Agassiz serial numbers out there?
     
  6. Dr. Jon

    Dr. Jon Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 14, 2001
    5,665
    427
    83
    Aerospace Engineer
    New Hampshire
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I have not found any Agassiz serial number data base and I doubt they kept rational serial numbers. I looked up the parts for this watch in the 1912 Wittnauer parts book. It has three movements that look like yours each a different size. They write that to order parts the originals must be sent to determine identify the part. This suggest that they did not track watches by serial number.

    In contrast Waltham, Elgin, and Hamilton parts supplier could provide a replacement from a serial number.

    The essential point is that parts were being supplied for a watch identical is appearance to yours in 1912 so dating to the 1890 to 1910 time frame is a reasonable estimate.
     
  7. Jerry Cibley

    Jerry Cibley New Member

    Feb 26, 2020
    3
    0
    1
    Male
    Country Flag:
    Dr. Jon -- Thank you so much for identifying this as a Aggasiz. According to the photo, it appears to be virtually identical. What kind of reputation does Aggasiz have as compared to Patek. Any idea of value? I am in Foxboro, MA... We are close!
     
  8. Dr. Jon

    Dr. Jon Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 14, 2001
    5,665
    427
    83
    Aerospace Engineer
    New Hampshire
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    If we were talking cars Agassiz would be Acura while Patek might be Lexus. Agassiz grades covered a fairly wide range and the best of them are comparable to good Pateks but not quite at the same level.

    I have taken down my Agassiz and it is very high quality but it is a bit less so than high end Patek, Vacheron or Henry Capt. The difference is in some details of the escapement.

    entry_pallet.png

    This is the escapement of my small Agassiz. The magenta arrow points to the safety finger. It is a pin held in a the lever frame. The lever is very well finished and beveled and is as well done as you would see in a top grade full size American watch. In a watch this size it is extraordinary. The light blue arrow shows the escape wheel teeth which are raised or as we say on this board the hub is recessed. Very few full size watches had thsi feature and few this size. This lightens the escape wheel while providing a large surface to lubricate. Both the escape wheel and lever pivots are capped. This is very high grade work.

    It is not the best.

    Here is small Henry Capt that is chronometer rated. It is about the same size but a bit larger and earlier.

    esc_02_sm.png

    The green arrow shows the difference. This is not just top, it is over the top. The safety finger is shaped and made of aluminum bronze for light weight but stiffness, It is screwed into the lever frame and the circle on the tip of the arrow head is the bottom of that screw polished. The smaller circle is a pin on the finger to assure it stays aligned. Patek Philippe and Vacheron a did this in almost all of their watches, even ladies watches.

    The fork going to the upper left is a counter poise to balance the lever. The Agassiz does not have this but this is not a defect. About this time makers had figured out that this device was counter productive. The "detachable" (that is screwed in place) safety finger is the big deal and it is one of the things that distinguishes an Agassiz from a Patek.

    This is literally a small detail and you usually have take out the balance wheel to see. This difference had no effect on timekeeping and this Agassiz may well have been more expensive than a comparable Patek not as thoroughly adjusted, but this difference would not be visible and would take a long trial to see its effect.


    Agassiz was owned by the same people as Longines while Patek Philippe was a stand alone.

    Agassiz is not as well known and not in production today which diminishes mystique and value. As collectors become more technically savvy they get to like Agassiz as a lower cost alternative to Patek or Vacheron or Audemars Piguet , often for comparable quality unless you really get deep.

    Your example is a very fine watch and probably of similar quality to Patek or Vacheron watches of similar size but less valuable. As shown, there are differences but not a lot of collectors are aware of them. Small watches are not all that sought after so there is usually not a lot of value difference between a small Patek, Vacheron, or Agassiz. With larger watches, Agassiz are typically much less valuable on similar items by Patek Vacheron or Audemars Piguet. As shown, Henry Capt was giving Patek real competition and these are comparable in value to Agassiz and Capt high end small watches are wonderful.


    Your area has a lot of old watch activity with Chapter 8 and the now somnolent Greater Boston Watch and Clock Collectors Club. If you PM me I'll include you on the notification of the next meeting of either group,
     
    viclip likes this.

Share This Page