Scrap or Repair? 2x 14K Swiss Repeaters circa 1890

[svenedin]

I have 2 Swiss repeating pocket watches. My grandfather and great-grandfather as well as my great-uncle were all watchmakers or clockmakers. These watches were "put on the side" as they needed too much work to get them right. Decades ago, my father asked my uncle Dan to try to repair them but by then his eyesight was failing. So they have sat for 50 years in a safe hardly ever seeing the light of day. Out of general interest, my grandfather would make balance staffs on "the turns" and sometimes he would work at home on the dining table. He would appropriate my grandmother's wedding ring for plating work and her poor ring got thinner and thinner. It looks like he spilt a drop of mercury on the back of one of the watches. They had little concern really for "health and safety"!

I had a watchmaker look at them about 10 years ago. He had them for 2 years and eventually returned them as too much work that he did not have time for.

To me they are not very exciting. Continental pattern cases which are no favourite of mine and rather coppery, quite thin gold. They seem middling quality and not top-end. On the other hand, I have no other repeaters in my collection and I would love a working repeater. There is also the emotional feeling that I would love to get them going after my father had been unable to find anyone to do it.

I have invested nothing in these watches as I inherited them so even if the cost of repairs is high, I had no initial outlay. However, if I did scrap them I would either want the actual gold used for something I would wear regularly or use the money to fund a good repeater that I can use and enjoy.

So obviously it is very hard to comment in a forum post without actually handling and examining a watch but in general what are members' thoughts? Worth investing a lot of work or scrap?

Watch 1

Is a quarter repeating, centre seconds flyback chronograph. This watch runs (badly). I suspect it has a cracked balance jewel or damaged staff pivots as it is very unhappy in certain positions. It will repeat but the repeating mechanism is very stiff. The chronometer will not start but the relevant parts do move. The plated crown is corroded and there is something amiss with the keyless work (nasty feel to it).



Watch 2

Is a minute repeating pocket watch. This watch runs well but although the mechanism makes a noise and runs the hammers do not move.

 

[Ethan Lipsig]

In the U.S., I'd expect it to cost at least $2-5,000 to restore either watch, and possibly more if parts have to be made for it. By way of example, I just was quoted $3,500 to service a grande et petite sonnerie quarter repeater that is in much better condition than your watches. I doubt that either of your watches would be particularly valuable post restoration since neither is from a well-known maker and neither is top quality. However, because these watches have significant sentimental value to you, economics should be less of a factor than they normally would be. I do not have a U.K. or European watchmaker to recommend, but I am sure other posters to this board could recommend someone qualified to work on complicated watches, I suggest that you get estimates for restoring both watches and seriously consider restoring at least one of them.

 

[Skutt50]

Worth investing a lot of work or scrap?

In my oppinion: Definately not scrap!

There must be collectors out there looking for watches with complications and willing to pay better than the scrap value. Now if it is worth investing in a renovation is another story. You need to find someone giving you a quote for the job and then evaluate the situation.

I don't know anyone who can do the job but hopefully someone here on the board does.......

 

[Kenny S.]

I have to agree with the above sentiments. Even if you don't repair them, I would keep them. Once you scrap them, they're gone forever, and nothing can change that. You can always hang onto them and decide to fix them (or not) at a later date. They are wonderful keepsakes at any rate.

 

[4thdimension]

I have a hard time believing you would not get more for these whole than melted. -Cort

 

[gmorse]

Hi Ethan,

I suggest that you get estimates for restoring both watches and seriously consider restoring at least one of them.

I'm sure that Stephen could find someone in the UK who didn't charge 'Rolex' prices for repairs, but the fact remains that he would never recoup restoration costs if he sold them, however modest by comparison.

Regards,

Graham

 

[svenedin]

Graham has kindly given me a watchmaker contact. These watches are way, way beyond my skill level. They are in "last chance saloon" rather than death-row. They've already been to two or possibly 3 watchmakers over the years who wouldn't even touch them let alone give a quote.

 

[Roy Horrorlogic]

Not sure if this duplicates what has already been suggested but G.M. put me onto a British watchmaker called Seth Kennedy who quoted me less than some of the numbers mentioned in preceding posts in order to recase as well as service a beautiful Moulinie repeater movement which I have. Most of his work appears to be in repairing and servicing timepieces of this era - and looks very good indeed.
As for scrapping the case, NO! I have boxes full of movements which resulted from this sort of short-term-ism. In every example the watch would surely have increased in value to outstrip the scrap value. Please, don't do it.
Roy

 

[svenedin]

Not sure if this duplicates what has already been suggested but G.M. put me onto a British watchmaker called Seth Kennedy who quoted me less than some of the numbers mentioned in preceding posts in order to recase as well as service a beautiful Moulinie repeater movement which I have. Most of his work appears to be in repairing and servicing timepieces of this era - and looks very good indeed.
As for scrapping the case, NO! I have boxes full of movements which resulted from this sort of short-term-ism. In every example the watch would surely have increased in value to outstrip the scrap value. Please, don't do it.
Roy

I take your point but it isn't really "short-term-ism". It's 2 watches sat broken for 50 years owned by 2 generations of my family and looked at by a minimum of 3 different watchmakers..........If it was short-term-ism they would have been scrapped long ago and I wouldn't even be asking here. Yes Seth was recommended to me and I have been in touch with him. I have yet to send the watches to him for a diagnosis and prognosis.

 

[oldetymes]

Hi Stephen - just catching up with your post/thread. If you have not yet found a repairer that you are satisfied with I would suggest you send to me. I restore pocket watches and work with an old master on the difficult ones. Look forward to hearing back from you

Dave Morrow, CC21

 

[svenedin]

Hi Stephen - just catching up with your post/thread. If you have not yet found a repairer that you are satisfied with I would suggest you send to me. I restore pocket watches and work with an old master on the difficult ones. Look forward to hearing back from you

Dave Morrow, CC21

Thank you Dave. The watches are actually packed up and ready to go to a watchmaker called Seth tomorrow. I'll wait to hear what he has to say but will certainly bear you in mind. As I handled them to pack them carefully my immediate emotion was "don't scrap me!".

Stephen

 

[dshumans]

I live in USA, but I specialize in repeaters. The minute repeater would be more fun to own and worth more when repaired. If you have no luck there and want to ship it to me it sounds exactly like something I can repair, and since I only charge $70/hr repair costs are usually reasonable. Here is an example of a minute repeater repair with similar symptoms that cost about $300 total, but I'd have no idea how much it would take to repair yours unless I see it. Hopefully, you'll get it repaired there without having to ship it to USA, which would probably cost $50 each way, insured. If you need help, contact me at dshumans@gmail.com.
Best Regards,
Doug

 

[svenedin]

I live in USA, but I specialize in repeaters. The minute repeater would be more fun to own and worth more when repaired. If you have no luck there and want to ship it to me it sounds exactly like something I can repair, and since I only charge $70/hr repair costs are usually reasonable. Here is an example of a minute repeater repair with similar symptoms that cost about $300 total, but I'd have no idea how much it would take to repair yours unless I see it. Hopefully, you'll get it repaired there without having to ship it to USA, which would probably cost $50 each way, insured. If you need help, contact me at dshumans@gmail.com.
Best Regards,
Doug

Thanks Doug. The watches are now with the watchmaker that Graham recommended. I have already had a preliminary report which with the watchmaker's permission I could share here. For now though, in brief summary;

The quarter repeater is repairable but has numerous faults and bad old repairs. Including a badly repaired staff with evidence of glue, poorly shaped replacements springs, solder, a centre seconds hand from a wristwatch etc.

The minute repeater is much more problematic. It is missing the quarter and minute snails on the cannon pinion. In other respects it is in better shape than the quarter repeater. Finding parts would be extremely difficult and making parts costly. It could be repaired to time only function reasonably easily.

So I have said yes go ahead and repair the quarter repeater and as for the minute repeater the jury is out. If parts could be found then yes it can be repaired. If parts have to be made this could be prohibitively expensive.

 

[svenedin]

This the view under the dial of the minute repeater. The arrows point to broken or badly repaired springs. The main problem is the missing minute and quarter snails on the cannon pinion.



This is the other side of the movement



So to help save this poorly minute repeater a) Can anybody identify the movement and maker? b) Does anybody have any suggestions on how to find the missing parts? Even "junk" repeating movements are expensive and finding the right donor movement is going to be a tremendous challenge.

 

[gmorse]

Hi Stephen,

Making a part like this from scratch, which combines the quarter and minute snails together with the freedom piece, (aka 'surprise piece'), between the two and the pin underneath which indexes the hour star wheel, would certainly be prohibitively expensive.



Regards,

Graham

 

[svenedin]

Hi Stephen,

Making a part like this from scratch, which combines the quarter and minute snails together with the freedom piece, (aka 'surprise piece'), between the two and the pin underneath which indexes the hour star wheel, would certainly be prohibitively expensive.

View attachment 608669 View attachment 608671 View attachment 608670

Regards,

Graham

Understood. So the only hope is to find the parts. They will exist somewhere. Somewhere in the world there will be a trashed watch with those essential parts intact. So this is now an appeal to anybody who reads this. Please check your drawers, your parts “boneyard”, your orphan movements. Help this watch live again and sing once more. Let’s hope the reach of the internet results in a miracle!

Enrico, can you help identify the movement please?

 

[svenedin]

Enrico has very kindly informed me that both of my repeaters were made by Paul Aubert. He sent these pictures too. Thank you Enrico!

 

[svenedin]

An update on these two watches. Some excellent news.

The minute repeater was missing too many parts to ever be a viable proposition for repair. I had the watch case melted down by a goldsmith and made into two wedding rings. They are nice plain court rings which were assayed and hallmarked as 14 carat gold (so the Swiss hallmarks on the case were accurate). The movement survives and may be useful for parts for someone one day. By selling the remaining gold to the goldsmith the wedding rings effectively cost me next to nothing.

The quarter repeater has been fully repaired by Seth Kennedy and is running beautifully! Seth had to do a lot of complicated work on this watch. There were all manner of problems. Broken jewels, a very badly made balance staff and many other issues.

A good outcome for two no-hoper watches I believe. We can't save them all.

 

[gmorse]

Hi Stephen,

Glad to hear the good outcome, especially that Seth was able to restore the quarter repeater so beautifully. He's a great craftsman.

Regards,

Graham

 

[svenedin]

Hi Stephen,

Glad to hear the good outcome, especially that Seth was able to restore the quarter repeater so beautifully. He's a great craftsman.

Regards,

Graham

He certainly is and it's rather nice that I haven't completely lost the other watch either. I'm wearing it on my finger!

 

[MrRoundel]

Congratulations on the great restoration. The watch is a real beauty to my eye. I have never handled, let alone owned, a repeater. Maybe someday.

I'm glad that you saved the one complete watch, but it is too bad the other had to go to a scrapper. Oh well...The rings look nice. And as long as they make you and your spouse happy, you did fine. Cheers.

 

[svenedin]

Incidentally, there is an earlier thread on this watch (2014) discussing “Qte Salter”, Qaulité Salter. This was an effort on the part of various Swiss movement manufacturers to denote a high level of quality. Something along the lines of the more modern silver, gold or platinum class.

https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/quarter-repeating-swiss-14k-chronograph-hunter.111547/

 

[Dave Haynes]

I was at the Sebastopol flea market years ago and came across a Bailey Banks and Biddlle (Out of SF?) gold repeater. It was a complete rust bucket but someone took it to scrap. I've read that LeCoultre made a lot of these fabulous movements. Today it is a novelty but before the turn of the century, there was very little electricity and few roads. It was important to be able to tell time without lighting a fire, either by lamp or candle. What a splendid thing to have.

 

[svenedin]

I was at the Sebastopol flea market years ago and came across a Bailey Banks and Biddlle (Out of SF?) gold repeater. It was a complete rust bucket but someone took it to scrap. I've read that LeCoultre made a lot of these fabulous movements. Today it is a novelty but before the turn of the century, there was very little electricity and few roads. It was important to be able to tell time without lighting a fire, either by lamp or candle. What a splendid thing to have.

Yes. This was an even bigger problem before the match was invented. It wasn’t a quick thing to light a candle. Had to fiddle with striking a spark and maybe a tinder box too. Far easier to have a watch repeat the time in the dark.

 

[Ethan Lipsig]

Qaulité Salter [was] an effort on the part of various Swiss movement manufacturers to denote a high level of quality. Something along the lines of the more modern silver, gold or platinum class.

I am skeptical, Svenedin, because Salter doesn't mean anything in German or French as far as I know -- I think it is a name -- unless all you mean is that the promotion effort consisted of nothing more than appending the word qualité to a brand name, as in Qualité Omega, Qualité Longines, or Qualité Eterna. Even then, I would be skeptical because I haven't seen much evidence of that.

Rather, I believe that Salter was a Henry Moser grade, hence Qualité Salter, or perhaps a Henry Moser brand.

 

[svenedin]

I am skeptical, Svenedin, because Salter doesn't mean anything in German or French as far as I know -- I think it is a name -- unless all you mean is that the promotion effort consisted of nothing more than appending the word qualité to a brand name, as in Qualité Omega, Qualité Longines, or Qualité Eterna. Even then, I would be skeptical because I haven't seen much evidence of that.

Rather, I believe that Salter was a Henry Moser grade, hence Qualité Salter, or perhaps a Henry Moser brand.

I have done a bit more research. The English is not very good on the website. If I am reading the website correctly it is suggested that the different Qualité (of which there are many) refer to certain case and dial combinations. However, I am not sure this is correct as I have seen other "Qualité Salter" marked watches with different cases and dials to mine and also in silver, not gold. Perhaps all we can say is that it is some kind of marketing strategy but exactly how it worked is obscure to me. Please see link:

Qte Mole Pocket Watch

Recently I came across a broken watch with the following markings on its enamel dial: “Qté Molé”. As we managed ...

antiqwatch.com

 

[Skutt50]

There is an explination in this text:

Qte Salter | Watches of the USSR

Explore Soviet Watches: Imperial Salter, Qte Salter, Salter, Russian, Сальтерь, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР

mroatman.wixsite.com

I have no clue if this is correct or not!

 

[Ethan Lipsig]

Skutt50's attachment makes me skeptical of my original skepticism. Svenedin's understanding, that qualité was a marketing term used to denote a purportedly better grade of watch, seems to have been the case in the Russian market.