Scottish Tall Case

[Richard T.]

Greetings all,

A couple of weeks ago I had the opportunity to examine the clock shown below.

The dial is signed James Greig, Perth. Watchmakers and Clockmakers of the World, 21st Century Edition, Loomes list the following:

" apprenticed to David Bisset of Perth Scotland, 1765. Working Perth 1769 - 1800"

Some, unconfirmed, information that Greig was a blacksmith as well. It is interesting that the center top finial is an anvil, with crossed hammers at the top and horse shoes at the bottom corners. The knob for opening the top door is a hand holding an iron bar.

The dial was restored in 1980 by someone from the Smithsonian Institution (signed on back). The movement was serviced by a clockmaker in Virginia about 10 years ago.

I just adjusted and set the beat. The verge is somewhat loose on the arbor and something will have to be done about that soon.

Any additional information, comments will be appreciated.



Best,

Richard T.

 

[harold bain]

Very nice clock, Richard. Not your typical Scots style case.

 

[Ralph]

Here's another Greig case. Regrettably, I don't have a picture of the movement. It was a nice brass dial.

He must have liked the sound frets in the hood... this example, plus one other copyrighted picture I have of one, has the sound frets . The other example also has a brass dial.

Ralph

 

[laprade]

Don't mind me, I'm just thinking out loud. I think Harold is heading in the right direction.

I don't think the case is "scots" made. The only feature that is remotely scots, is the side window in the hood, and even then it is the wrong shape: more like those of the south of England. The sound frets, aren't in fact sound frets, because, if you look closely, you can see through the top sections. It was the flat top scots clocks that featured the sound frets, which also were on the sides, and not glass. I'm not too fussy on the dial, either.

Ralph's clock has the makings of a scots clock , in its trunk / mid section.

The use of the "english" style swan necks, as integral to the hood casing, is most likely caused by Robert Adam, and his close involvement with the introduction of this broken pediment feature, in England. This would account for the fact that these swan necked scots clocks seem to be restricted to the more sophisticated parts of Scotland. The Adam brothers were Edinburgh architects, and employed by the top layer of society. It is said that Robert, introduced the Chippendales to broken pediment, and weened them away from the late Queen Anne / chinese styling, but that's another story.

I think Harold hit the nail right on the head!

 

[harold bain]

Actually, laprade, I wasn't suggesting the case wasn't a Scots case. Just not typical. Ralph's case has enough similarities to suggest this was the maker's preferred style (swan necks and frets).
Would there possibly have been any importation of English cases in around 1769-1800? I wouldn't want to rule it out, but nor would I rule out a Scottish casemaker making an English style case, if requested by the clockmaker.

 

[rmarkowitz1_cee4a1]

The striking features to me are the hammer and anvil center finial which looks like it's made of sheet and cast brass, the what appears to be somewhat crudely cut out sheet brass frets in the arch, and what appears to be a cast metal gilded clenched fist door pull.

Any thoughts or comments on those...the finial and door pull are rather unusual, no?

RM

 

[Ralph]

<snip> the what appears to be somewhat crudely cut out sheet brass frets in the arch,<snip>

RM

The clock I was familiar with, had wood frets.


Ralph

 

[harold bain]

The striking features to me are the hammer and anvil center finial which looks like it's made of sheet and cast brass, the what appears to be somewhat crudely cut out sheet brass frets in the arch, and what appears to be a cast metal gilded clenched fist door pull.

Any thoughts or comments on those...the finial and door pull are rather unusual, no?

RM

RM, as Richard mentioned, our maker was also a blacksmith. The finial and door pull would have likely been his "signature", unique to his clock. Yes, quite unusual.

 

[Richard T.]

Thanks for the comments thus far.

The owners of the clock had a copy of a few pages from a reference work on Scottish clocks. The work was dated 1921 (Don't know the title). I have no reference books in my library pertaining to Scottish Clocks and would appreciate any info from anyone that does.

The owners told me that there is a clock by the same maker in the Governor's house in Colonial Williamsburg, VA and they have seen it, but have no photos.

Best,

Richard T.

 

[Ralph]

The 1921 book, reprinted in 1975, was by John Smith, titled Old Scottish Clockmakers from 1453 to 1850.

Since then there is a book by Donald Whyte, Clockmakers & Watchmakers of Scotland 1453-1900. It was published 2005.

Ralph

 

[Richard T.]

Thanks Ralph

Best,

Richard T.

 

[StephenB]

Donald Whyte's book "Clockmakers & Watchmakers of Scotland" (2005) lists

"Greig, James. Apprenticed to DAVID BISSET, clockmaker in Perth 1765. Admitted tas a freeman of the Incorporation of Hammermen there on 28 Mar 1769 on payment of £6 3s 4d Sterling as he had not served the full 7 years of his indenture. Deacon of the Incorporation in 1774-5. Married Helen Foggan. Father of DAVID GREIG."

"Old Scottish Clockmakers" by John Smith (1921) Lists

"GREIG, James. Perth, 1765-1800.
Apprenticed to David Bisset, Perth, 1765. Admitted freeman of the Incorporation of Hammermen, Perth 28th March 1769, on payment of £6 3s 4d sterling as he had not served the full seven years of his indentures, Appointed Deacon of his Incorporation1774-75."

Interestingly I live in Scotland some 40 miles from Perth ( my nearest major shops).
I own a LC clock by James Gray of Edinburgh of about 1780 that has a case very similar in style to the one you show. It is typical of many Scottish clocks that I see apart from the finial and door pull. I have never seen anything like that before.
The term Hammermen should not be confused with blacksmiths as it was the Incorporation that all clockmakers belonged to (originally locksmiths).

Regards
Stephen

 

[Richard T.]

Thanks Stephen for the information.

Best,

Richard T.

 

[laprade]

Harold, to answer your question about imported cases. I found a site some months ago, which belonged to some up market dealers. One clock, not for sale, had a "very high london style" case, and they said that the scottish man had gone south and bought it. It was probably the client who supplied the case, as in those days, early 1700s, only the very rich could afford such, and most of them had town houses in London.Also the cost of moving such a thing would have been very high.

As to the english style cases that have popped up here with scots makers (old cats was the first that I saw since joining the board) I reckon that Adam, may have brought english trained cabinet makers, or stipulated the styles. There was on the web, last year, a clock with a "Wick" maker's name. The case was almost identical to the first one shown on the study thread, and is clearly from the Essex-Kent- Suffolk area.

I still think that the sound frets are just decoration, and the side windows are "southern" in style. What is peculiar, is the elongated base unit, which could lead to the case being an "Irish" one. The plinth looks very suspect, and it is possible that the clock might have had turned feet, as many cases with the elongated bases, had.

The one thing I find odd, is that in the mid 70s, the english market was flooded with scots clocks. It was the irish tinker-men, who brought them down. They weren't very sellable, and all went into containers. The "oddity", was that amongst the many hundreds that came south, only one in the batches that I say, had an english style case. It was a pine clock, in original plain finish. (it hadn't been tarted up by the "pine trade": when you think what some of those jokers did to decent furniture, it makes you shiver!) The movement was an 8 day, black forest wood frame, with standard english pendulum and weights. (It was the first of such that I had seen.) It wasn't scots, that's for sure, but it was the only english style case.

Even in the mid 90s, when I used to attend "Charnock Richard" every Sunday at 4am, there were about 20 regular scots dealers, with the usual pile of enormous chests of drawers, and of course, "flat topped" clocks, but never any english style cases: so you can see where my scepticism comes from.

 

[oldcat61]

As we've learned from Laprade's thread, the rule is " there are no rules". I would have wondered about my Scots clock in an English case, but we now have photos of 9 John Key clocks & all the cases are very similar except for one pagoda top. Even that one has his Scottish thistle side frets. I guess the best rule is to learn as much as you can & then buy what you really like; fashion be damned. Sue

 

[Richard T.]

Thanks for the comments. Any others?.............

Best,

Richard T.

 

[laprade]

I went looking on the web for some scots clocks, and found some on Allan Smith's site (permission sought and granted: allansmithantiqueclocks) amongst them, one is from Dumfries, which is on the border near to Carlisle, and another, is an Edinburgh clock. The fretwork is a common feature, and is backed with silk, but not as a sound board, it seems. I'll put a display of them on the study thread, but here, I show an Ulster clock, which is not too far removed from the thread's clock. I did find several clocks with "long" bases, but none with such a high single plinth. Unfortunately, none of the shots I have borrowed, show the sides of the hoods, so I'll have to contact Allan Smith again and ask about them.

Alex Frazer of Comber, Northern Ireland