Scottish Long Case - William Young

Robert Ryan

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FB Market place...hardly ever go there....saw this yesterday and grabbed it today. Couldn't be more pleased. Needs thorough cleaning both case and works. Appears to be complete. Missing suspension spring is all I can see....that pendulum is heavy. Fits perfect in the house....where it is now is just until I'm done with the rehab.

Any info regarding the clock is, of course, welcome. Dating it somewhere in the early 19th century.

I have put it together just for the photos....hands and dial are not connected properly.

Best Regards,

~Bob

PS One photo shows the back of the dial with a name that might be the artist......

IMG_0816.JPG IMG_0817.JPG IMG_0818.JPG IMG_0819.JPG IMG_0820.JPG IMG_0821.JPG
 

novicetimekeeper

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The dial suggests post 1830, I have never seen a hood like that but don't see many scottish clocks.

The dial feet arrangement seems odd, has four but only three used and the fourth has a flat top.
 

Robert Ryan

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Thanks...date is just an uneducated guess....yes, one appears to have been cut....perhaps. If it is a William Young, I believe his production years stopped around 1853. Perhaps that is closer to its actual date.

Just noticed.....In looking at the front plate...there is indeed only 3 holes available to secure the dial.

~B
 

svenedin

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Similar dial and hands to one of mine which I think is William IV era (1830-1837) and is also Scottish.

IMG_7240.jpeg
 

svenedin

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Gorgeous.
Thank you. As far as I know the dials were made in Birmingham. I did trace the artist of my dial to the extent that whoever it was, they painted other dials with near identical female faces. My clock was in Clocks Magazine letters some years back after an edition with a piece on Scottish painted dials. John "Clockie" Brown is mentioned in one of Burn's poems (The Libel Summons) and was at Mauchline. My clock is too late to have been made by Clockie Brown but perhaps his son. Kilmarnock is 9 miles from Mauchline.

Anyway, your clock looks very nice. I do not know that much about Scottish longcase clocks but I do know that the cases are very variable and often a long way behind the fashions of the London clocks. Your case harks back to the designs of earlier long cases but is different from them.
 
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Darrmann39

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FB Market place...hardly ever go there....saw this yesterday and grabbed it today. Couldn't be more pleased. Needs thorough cleaning both case and works. Appears to be complete. Missing suspension spring is all I can see....that pendulum is heavy. Fits perfect in the house....where it is now is just until I'm done with the rehab.

Any info regarding the clock is, of course, welcome. Dating it somewhere in the early 19th century.

I have put it together just for the photos....hands and dial are not connected properly.

Best Regards,

~Bob

PS One photo shows the back of the dial with a name that might be the artist......

View attachment 658644 View attachment 658645 View attachment 658646 View attachment 658647 View attachment 658648 View attachment 658649
Mine is a English 1795 . I have barely gotten into this but fix some inlay in the door and make a suspension spring and connect it to the pendulum rod. So I thought you might want to see that.
I took a regular suspension with pendulum wires from I think Timesavers and cut it inserting it into that brass on top and soldering then threading it into the bottom with existing pendulum rod.

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Robert Ryan

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I also ordered a suspension spring from Timesavers. They had one that has the round upper brass fitting that should work just fine. Connecting it to the pendulum will require removing the existing pin and seeing if it can be reused to secure the spring. The decoration on my pendulum is totally gone.

Nice clock and Peter Max artwork.

~B
 
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svenedin

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Mine is a English 1795 . I have barely gotten into this but fix some inlay in the door and make a suspension spring and connect it to the pendulum rod. So I thought you might want to see that.
I took a regular suspension with pendulum wires from I think Timesavers and cut it inserting it into that brass on top and soldering then threading it into the bottom with existing pendulum rod.

View attachment 658671 View attachment 658672 View attachment 658673 View attachment 658674 View attachment 658675 View attachment 658677 View attachment 658678
The type of suspension spring you have used is not correct. The actual spring part should extend all the way to the block that sits in the crutch. Also where did you get the date for your clock? The dial is not at all the style for the date you say, it is a later dial after 1820 or so. There is some strange modern metalwork that looks very wrong on the back of your dial. It looks like your dial has been partly repainted at the some point (numerals and signature do not look quite right).

Edit: There is an R Myers in Loomes. He is listed in Knaresborough 1820-1826 but there is no "Myres" listed.
 
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svenedin

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Here is what I ordered from Timesavers....it's a little over 5 inches. the upper end should fit nicely.

~B

View attachment 658683
Should be something like this. The block is threaded for the pendulum rod but if you have the original lower block you can certainly use what you have ordered and this has the advantage that you know your pendulum rod thread fits the thread in the block.

 
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Robert Ryan

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Right that's exactly it.....Thanks! It will be here in 3-5 business days....well I'm amazed!

Thanks again.

~B
 

svenedin

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Right that's exactly it.....Thanks! It will be here in 3-5 business days....well I'm amazed!

Thanks again.

~B
What are you amazed about?
Right that's exactly it.....Thanks! It will be here in 3-5 business days....well I'm amazed!

Thanks again.

~B
You're welcome. Just one tip: when you set up your clock ensure you fix it to the wall. If you look at my picture showing the movement you can see modern screws going through the backboard. I used old holes in the backboard rather than make any new holes. First I fixed a piece of wood to the wall and then the backboard to the piece of wood. If you do not do this the clock may be dangerously unstable and could fall. The old nail holes in backboards attests to the fact that they were always attached to the wall.
 
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Darrmann39

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The type of suspension spring you have used is not correct. The actual spring part should extend all the way to the block that sits in the crutch. Also where did you get the date for your clock? The dial is not at all the style for the date you say, it is a later dial after 1820 or so. There is some strange modern metalwork that looks very wrong on the back of your dial. It looks like your dial has been inexpertly partly repainted at the some point.

Edit: There is an R Myers in Loomes. He is listed in Knaresborough 1820-1826 but there is no "Myres" listed.
I got the date from the guy I got it from. I've actually tracked it all down.
Yes it does look like some of the dial has been retouched but not the top at all. And I agree someone has done something to repair the back. One of the posts holding the dial to plate is missing so it might have to do with that and holding it on.
I haven't taken anything apart yet but I have had it running and striking. The suspension spring was just a start the one on it was similar to what your saying but what you see is what I had and wasn't sure how to put such a small slice in the brass the width of suspension spring. That got me to it running. And that's where it's sat since.
I don't want to hijack his post I was going to post it when I started working on it and got it apart but I'll add some of the pics of info. I had one that put him in knaresborough in 1810 but that doesn't mean he wasn't there in 1795 also. Also doesn't mean it's not 1820s. To.

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Robert Ryan

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Yet another good tip...I
What are you amazed about?

That it was available ..exactly what was needed...and it will be here in 3-5 days.....pretty darn good service. Having a great time perusing the site.

You're welcome. Just one tip: when you set up your clock ensure you fix it to the wall. If you look at my picture showing the movement you can see modern screws going through the backboard. I used old holes in the backboard rather than make any new holes. First I fixed a piece of wood to the wall and then the backboard to the piece of wood. If you do not do this the clock may be dangerously unstable and could fall. The old nail holes in backboards attests to the fact that they were always attached to the wall.
 

svenedin

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I got the date from the guy I got it from. I've actually tracked it all down.
Yes it does look like some of the dial has been retouched but not the top at all. And I agree someone has done something to repair the back. One of the posts holding the dial to plate is missing so it might have to do with that and holding it on.
I haven't taken anything apart yet but I have had it running and striking. The suspension spring was just a start the one on it was similar to what your saying but what you see is what I had and wasn't sure how to put such a small slice in the brass the width of suspension spring. That got me to it running. And that's where it's sat since.
I don't want to hijack his post I was going to post it when I started working on it and got it apart but I'll add some of the pics of info. I had one that put him in knaresborough in 1810 but that doesn't mean he wasn't there in 1795 also. Also doesn't mean it's not 1820s. To.

View attachment 658684 View attachment 658685 View attachment 658686 View attachment 658687
Wow sold by none other than Brian Loomes himself. That's very nice. We'll see what other have to say about date. I'm no great expert.
 
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svenedin

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I see now, is there somewhere to get the whole piece from top to pendulum rod of that suspension spring. Or is the one he's ordering as close as he or I'll get besides getting one custom made.
Sorry just saw the correct one you posted above.
Yes, I posted a link. See post number 12 in this thread.
 
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svenedin

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I've bookmarked the site...expect I'll need more as I get into the restoration.
Excellent. Don't get the bug for long cases.......I've only got four which is a very mild infection....

Back to the title of your thread title. There is a William Young of Auchtergaven, Perthshire listed in Loomes, 1836 and another William Young in Dundee 1805-1843

On the dial with have two corners with thistles (a Scottish emblem) and two with roses (an English emblem). The roses appear to have Forget-Me-Nots (Myosotis) with them which may have a particular significance (they often signify true love or fidelity). In the break arch we have a lady standing in a boat and a gentleman on the bank. I wonder whether these are characters from the works of Sir Walter Scott? (The Lady of the Lake). The Lady of the Lake (poem) - Wikipedia

All of the above makes your clock a very Scottish clock!

Where is you clock signed?
 
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Darrmann39

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Wow sold by none other than Brian Loomes himself. That's very nice. We'll see what other have to say about date. I'm no great expert.
Yes, I have no knowledge of these just got offered a trade and took it.
But I take Brian Loomes is well known .
I did just notice mine does have a different spelling of the pics I added.
But even tho it's been touched up there are letters that haven't been touched and I'm pretty positive they didn't add but touched up the signature,
 

Robert Ryan

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Excellent. Don't get the bug for long cases.......I've only got four which is a very mild infection....

Back to the title of your thread title. There is a William Young of Auchtergaven, Perthshire listed in Loomes, 1836 and another William Young in Dundee 1805-1843

On the dial with have two corners with thistles (a Scottish emblem) and two with roses (an English emblem). The roses appear to have Forget-Me-Nots (Myosotis) with them which may have a particular significance (they often signify true love or fidelity). In the break arch we have a lady standing in a boat and a gentleman on the bank. I wonder whether these are characters from the works of Sir Walter Scott? (The Lady of the Lake). The Lady of the Lake (poem) - Wikipedia

All of the above makes your clock a very Scottish clock!

Where is you clock signed?
Your instincts are right on....the title which is partially blocked by my flash...does indeed say the Lady of the Lake.

It is not signed....or the sign is gone from the dial...just in my brief search of long cases with that dial made in Scotland...a common result was William Young. So I could be very wrong.

~B

IMG_0822.JPG
 

rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

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FB Market place...hardly ever go there....saw this yesterday and grabbed it today. Couldn't be more pleased. Needs thorough cleaning both case and works. Appears to be complete. Missing suspension spring is all I can see....that pendulum is heavy. Fits perfect in the house....where it is now is just until I'm done with the rehab.

Any info regarding the clock is, of course, welcome. Dating it somewhere in the early 19th century.

I have put it together just for the photos....hands and dial are not connected properly.

Best Regards,

~Bob

PS One photo shows the back of the dial with a name that might be the artist......

View attachment 658644 View attachment 658645 View attachment 658646 View attachment 658647 View attachment 658648 View attachment 658649
That's a really snazzy case hood. Has a bit of a late Regency/early Victorian feel?
Here is a picture of the movement of my clock and the dial with the hood removed.

View attachment 658680 View attachment 658681
Quite the dial. I find the iconography fascinating and revealing. The representations of the 4 corners of the world as a females displaying attributes of those parts of the world are rather traditional.

America is, as seems typical on clock dials and other art forms, represented by a female with a vaguely Native American feathered headdress. Here, she stands in front of the products of America. Cotton, which would have supplied Scottish mills...and ashes (referring to tobacco)?? Amazingly calm considering she is beset by a fierce serpent and a glaring alligator. Maybe reflects some residual hard feelings about the Revolution and the War of 1812?

I also find the representation of Asia fascinating. Typically a woman with wearing a turban and holding the Koran. Here, she brandishes a sword. H'mm. I believe there was a history of conflict with the Ottoman Empire?

Finally, I have seen engravings and dials where the woman from the "savage" parts of the world, Africa and American, are scantily clad or bare breasted.

Emblem-of-America.jpg emblem of Africa.JPG

Here, everyone is rather fully clothed. Even arms and legs are fully covered, down the ankles. Really reflects a Victorian prudishness and sensibility? Remember, this was a time when, supposedly, the legs of pianos were covered out of modesty.

RM
 

svenedin

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That's a really snazzy case hood. Has a bit of a late Regency/early Victorian feel?


Quite the dial. I find the iconography fascinating and revealing. The representations of the 4 corners of the world as a females displaying attributes of those parts of the world are rather traditional.

America is, as seems typical on clock dials and other art forms, represented by a female with a vaguely Native American feathered headdress. Here, she stands in front of the products of America. Cotton, which would have supplied Scottish mills...and ashes (referring to tobacco)?? Amazingly calm considering she is beset by a fierce serpent and a glaring alligator. Maybe reflects some residual hard feelings about the Revolution and the War of 1812?

I also find the representation of Asia fascinating. Typically a woman with wearing a turban and holding the Koran. Here, she brandishes a sword. H'mm. I believe there was a history of conflict with the Ottoman Empire?

Finally, I have seen engravings and dials where the woman from the "savage" parts of the world, Africa and American, are scantily clad or bare breasted.

View attachment 658700 View attachment 658701

Here, everyone is rather fully clothed. Even arms and legs are fully covered, down the ankles. Really reflects a Victorian prudishness and sensibility? Remember, this was a time when, supposedly, the legs of pianos were covered out of modesty.

RM
I believe potash was a major American export at the time. I wonder whether the serpent, being so prominent, is a reference to the biblical serpent, i.e. symbolising betrayal.
 
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Darrmann39

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Wow sold by none other than Brian Loomes himself. That's very nice. We'll see what other have to say about date. I'm no great expert.
Just a small update, I'm in contact with Brian loomes and am getting all the history and evaluation of the clock. He said he sold it over 50 yrs ago. I'll post the clock on its own with all the info when I get it. Thanks for the tip on correct spring.
 

svenedin

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Just a small update, I'm in contact with Brian loomes and am getting all the history and evaluation of the clock. He said he sold it over 50 yrs ago. I'll post the clock on its own with all the info when I get it. Thanks for the tip on correct spring.
Super. I’d love to hear about it.
 
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Betzel

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Curiouser and curiouser...

Bob, great find. Thanks for posting the full front movement image. Odd that someone cut off a leg on the dial and a fourth hole was never put in the front plate. Wonder if that was a thing for Scotties. Would it have interfered mechanically? So the calendar wheels were detented --with a spring. I used a thin wire on mine as I didn't know. And these racks had a lot of variations in their styles, though we don't know if this is original. Are your weights oval in cross-section, with cast-in hooks and weight numbers? Are the pulleys fairly large (45mm or so)?

All the best with it!
 

svenedin

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Curiouser and curiouser...

Bob, great find. Thanks for posting the full front movement image. Odd that someone cut off a leg on the dial and a fourth hole was never put in the front plate. Wonder if that was a thing for Scotties. Would it have interfered mechanically? So the calendar wheels were detented --with a spring. I used a thin wire on mine as I didn't know. And these racks had a lot of variations in their styles, though we don't know if this is original. Are your weights oval in cross-section, with cast-in hooks and weight numbers? Are the pulleys fairly large (45mm or so)?

All the best with it!
The fact that one of the dial posts has been cut does beg the question of whether the dial and movement started life together. It would seem very odd that it was like that originally (but it is not impossible). The dial was made in Birmingham, England and who knows where the movement was made. The British clock industry (and watch industry) of the time was one of small industries producing the various parts. For example, the hands made in one place, the wheels made somewhere else, the plates made in another place etc etc etc. It would seem strange that the clockmaker who assembled the various parts of this clock would choose a movement that could not be properly fitted to the dial especially as dials of this kind were very common. An alternative way of fitting a dial is to use a false plate between the movement and the dial and this is usually seen with earlier painted dial clocks.
 
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zedric

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As there isn't an extra hole in the movement front plate for the fourth dial post, I suspect that the dial and movement did start life together - it seems that any other combination would not work in this case.... but why the maker chose to do things this way is a mystery - it seems the dial pillar interferes with the placement of the movement pillar, so maybe they put the movement pillar in the wrong spot, and only realised when the dial arrived from Birmingham?
 

novicetimekeeper

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There were dialmakers in Scotland, but I don't know how to tell the difference.
 

jmclaugh

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An unusual style of swan neck hood. Painted dials were certainly made in Scotland by the period this clock dates to though I'm not sure you can definitively say it is a Scottish clock.
 
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Jmeechie

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Hi,
What a wonderful and beautiful clock! Everyone has pretty much covered everything I know on these clocks and the only additional input I can offer is the surname Michie is predominant in the Inverness / Aberdeen area, or to stick a pin Keith as a central point. My suspicion is this is the last name of the person, more than likely a lady, who painted the dial and was ensuring payment for her work!
The “Lady of the lake” is a poem first published by Sir Walter Scott in 1810. The scene I suspect is when James Fitz-James meets or is rescued by Ellen Douglas at Lock Kitrine. Or it’s when he meets her to as her to marry him and leave with him.
In the 4 corners is the Thistle and English Rose. So my suspicion is they were representing their loyalty to to the union (with England) or were Loyalists! In this area of Scotland, this would have sat poorly during this period, roughly 100 years after the battle (slaughter) at Culloden!
Have you considered a black light on the dial to see is there may be a name?
Cheers,
James
 
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svenedin

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Hi,
What a wonderful and beautiful clock! Everyone has pretty much covered everything I know on these clocks and the only additional input I can offer is the surname Michie is predominant in the Inverness / Aberdeen area, or to stick a pin Keith as a central point. My suspicion is this is the last name of the person, more than likely a lady, who painted the dial and was ensuring payment for her work!
The “Lady of the lake” is a poem first published by Sir Walter Scott in 1810. The scene I suspect is when James Fitz-James meets or is rescued by Ellen Douglas at Lock Kitrine. Or it’s when he meets her to as her to marry him and leave with him.
In the 4 corners is the Thistle and English Rose. So my suspicion is they were representing their loyalty to to the union (with England) or were Loyalists! In this area of Scotland, this would have sat poorly during this period, roughly 100 years after the battle (slaughter) at Culloden!
Have you considered a black light on the dial to see is there may be a name?
Cheers,
James
Well put. I noted the blue forget-me-not flowers with the roses. Perhaps this means do not forget your loyalty to England given the flower symbolises loyalty and love as well as remembering.
 
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Jmeechie

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Well put. I noted the blue forget-me-not flowers with the roses. Perhaps this means do not forget your loyalty to England given the flower symbolises loyalty and love as well as remembering.
Ive been thinking more about the poem, and the area I suspect the clock originated in and I’m starting to think in the opposite direction. James Fitz-James turns out to be the King James V of Scotland, he’s in love with Ellen Douglas who’s a Highlander clan chiefs daughter and the poem was tremendously influential in the nineteenth century, and inspired the Highland Revival. So the symbolism may be to not forget what the English did at Culloden to the Scottish highlanders as the Thistle is the Scottish national flower and the motto Nemo me impune lacessit (No one provokes me with impunity) and forget me nots beside the English rose combined with a Scottish clock, Sir Walter Scott’s depiction on the “Lady of the lake” all combined at the height of Highland revival, well, I’m starting to lean the other way, Scottish pride and Symbolism.
 
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Robert Ryan

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The other attribute that this clock has...is the flush trunk door. I have been searching for similar examples with no luck. The door is solid mahogany...with veneer trim. Seems to be an usual characteristic. The tags inside the case refer shops that performed repairs done back in the 1970s.

The lock is not original.

~B

IMG_0885.JPG IMG_0886.JPG
 

oldcat61

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Ive been thinking more about the poem, and the area I suspect the clock originated in and I’m starting to think in the opposite direction. James Fitz-James turns out to be the King James V of Scotland, he’s in love with Ellen Douglas who’s a Highlander clan chiefs daughter and the poem was tremendously influential in the nineteenth century, and inspired the Highland Revival. So the symbolism may be to not forget what the English did at Culloden to the Scottish highlanders as the Thistle is the Scottish national flower and the motto Nemo me impune lacessit (No one provokes me with impunity) and forget me nots beside the English rose combined with a Scottish clock, Sir Walter Scott’s depiction on the “Lady of the lake” all combined at the height of Highland revival, well, I’m starting to lean the other way, Scottish pride and Symbolism.
The symbolism of the two flowers in interesting. My brass dial John Key from Dumbarton has another touch of Scottish symbolism. The side frets are in the shape of a Highland thistle. Very English style clock except for that little detail. With Scottish ancestors, I just love that part.

OurSidePanel .jpg
 

Robert Ryan

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I have perhaps discovered the clock maker....not William Young, but perhaps the clue is on that back of the dial. The name Michie, which I assumed was the dial painter...I think is actually the clockmaker. There was a James Michie listed in the Old Scottish Clockmakers book by John Smith. His shop was on High Street in Brechin, 1837. Fascinating ...of course this is all supposition on my part.

IMG_0821.JPG
 
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novicetimekeeper

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that seems not unreasonable. That may have been put there by the dial painter to identify the customer.
 
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Robert Ryan

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Yes, it's an important part of why I am enthralled with this hobby. This clock has had repairs to the rack & snail gear, suspension spring, the crutch, the trunk door lock has been replaced...but other than those minor repairs...it is in remarkably complete condition. I have all the pins that secure the dial and the hands...the original hands, minute, hour, second and date. The dial shows some paint loss....but the case seems in great shape. Here are a couple of images of the dovetail work.

Couldn't be more pleased....with the clock and ....my membership in NAWCC that has added some important context and information.

~Bob

IMG_0871.JPG IMG_0873.JPG
 
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novicetimekeeper

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never seen dovetails on a longcase before, perhaps these are there because it is such a late clock. Will have to ask.
 
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Robert Ryan

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2 more photos of inside the hood. More dovetail construction and a pic of the exposed nail on the seatboard. I certainly don't know how to interpret any of this...but do find it interesting.

~B

IMG_0921.JPG IMG_0922.JPG
 

zedric

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The case is unusual all round - the style of the top of the hood, the flush fitting door, the dovetails, the tapering "urn" shape of the inset panel, none of these are standard, and yet it to me it looks like a really nice case.
 
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Robert Ryan

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I do like its proportions...at its deepest point it's only 9 1/2 inches deep, 17 1/2 inches wide and 80 inches tall. It will fit perfectly in my front hall...when I get it running, etc (waiting for weights). A fair amount of time has been spent searching for a similar swan neck pediment revealed nothing.
 

novicetimekeeper

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Nailing or screwing seatboards down is usually a later modification. Some 30 hours did have fixed seatboards originally but on a thirty hour the seatboard and movement are not usually joined together, they are on 8 days. (perhaps the difference in winding method is behind this)
 

Robert Ryan

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I've never considered whether this a 30 hour or 8 day clock....what might be an indication either way? Not sure I understand your comment....are you saying that attaching the seatboard to this clock might be a modification? Once again, thank you for your observations....most informative.

~B
 

novicetimekeeper

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No, this is an 8 day. Usually a 30 hour has a huygens loop so you pull down from below to wind, there is no torque from winding requiring the movement to be secured. On an 8 day (or longer the point is winding through the dial) winding would require the movement to be secured to the seatboard.

30 hour clocks usually have a loose seatboard not attached to anything but held captive sometimes by the doughnut depending on how the chain/rope is threaded through the seatboard.
 
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