Schottenwerk Movement, How take apart???

[Andy]

Referring to the Schottenwerk type clocks with the wooden plates and brass gears, etc.
Find no real references to the wooden-frame movement in the forums so I am giving this thread a shot.
I have a few of these wooden beasts under the bed and the movements are all full of dirt and such. Been in the attic or barn for whole lot of years most likely.
I took one downstairs last night to look at getting it running, and see the works are all held together with pegs, etc. No screws, nails or bolts...uhg.
Not just something I want to start hacking at without a bit of knowledge beforehand. Anyone know of a book on the repair of these things? I looked all over and find nothing that will tell me how to set about getting it apart without trashing it. I'd say you have to drill out the pegs...but maybe I'm off in left field. Would like a book or a hands-on video, or websites of those that might give me a hand. As said, I have a few of these things put away for cold winter nights so I'd rather prefer to find any references before I get down and dirty with them, not after the fact. Once apart, should be a piece of cake...or ? Can't be worse than a Westminster that rings the wrong tune... LOL
Thanks!!!

 

[harold bain]

Andy if you know clock repair, and can handle a basic American time and strike movement, there are not a whole lot of differences. Familiarize yourself with how the strike works before taking it apart. The wooden parts obviously are not cleaned like brass parts would be. Is it weight driven, or spring? The wooden pegs should either pull out, or be driven out (no drilling).

 

[zepernick]

Would note -- if briefly -- that there are several references to these movements in general, and their repair and cleaning.

Indeed, as to the latter, E.J. Tyler's volume (1977) Black Forest Clocks has a chapter on it. Then too, there are more than a handful of articles concerning these clocks and their movements in CLOCKS magazine. Some show extensive restoration. Some by me.

In addition -- please do note -- the only parts of the frame that need and should be removed on Schotten- type movements are the two middle uprights in back. They are kept in by small metal pins etc. at the top of each.

The top and bottom plates, and the front, and the back corner uprights are not to be removed, taken apart or drilled, etc.

There have been several postings of photos of these movements on this Message Board -- some by yours truly as well.

Tyler and the articles in CLOCKS and such are all available through the NAWCC Library & Research Center.

Zepernick

 

[Uhralt]

Don't remove any wooden pegs if this is a Black forest clock! A Schottenwerk should be one. You take the movement apart by removing the short nails that are located on the top of the two wooden panels on the back side of the movement. They are nailed into the top of the clock frame from below. The top of the panels (one for the going train and one for the strike train) then can slide out to the back. You need to remove the count wheel before you slide back the strike side panel.

Everything else should be self-explanatory.

I hope this helps,

Uhralt

 

[Andy]

Well...how nice to have forums...and how nice to have kind readers to help. Glad I asked before doing things LOL
Thanks!

Took another look and lo and behold, if you take the back cover off...which has nails and also pegs in it...you can then get to the panels mentioned and pull the nails and tip the panels out to get the gears out. I just hadn't looked well enough. Forest for the trees type of thing. Tell me if I'm correct though, that I must take the rear panel (one with the hanging hole cut in it) off to do all this. It is, as stated, pegged in addition to being nailed, but I see no other way to do it. Let me know please.
Other than that, seems a simple deal.
Another question as long as you are reading this anyway. See the photos please. Anyone know that maker's mark? KK ? Anyone familiar with the cool rabbit form adjusting piece?
Background info, this is the works from an Art Nouveau, clock, carved with flowers on the Shield and an enamel dial. So it isn't that old...but still pretty.

Looked up that book and it can be bought, just a bit expensive here at 50 bucks for a used book.
Will see what is available in the other reference for the library in the website...
Thanks!

 

[eskmill]

Gosh Andy. That's not a rabbit....it's a hare and the German word is Haas.

Philip Haas & Sons used that logo on many of the clocks they produced.

Wished you included a snapshot of the Art-Nouveau face. That kind of artwork (Jungen Art) dates to as far back as the late 1890's in Europe.

Haas' clocks date well before then and for many years until WWI.

The letters KK are meaningless now. They probably denoted the assembler of the movement who was likely one of many Haas subcontractors working in their cottages assembling clock movements from raw parts.

 

[Jeremy Woodoff]

Andy, I believe the answer to your question about removing the back (hanging) plate is yes, it has to be removed first. The nails must be carefully pried out, and the pegs from the movement should be a friction fit through holes in the back plate. Hopefully they haven't been glued in place.

 

[Andy]

It occurred to me that the "rabbit" might be a makers symbol, but I didn't make assumptions when some pretty knowledgeable people have agreed to help me. Thanks once again.
Word for that animal is "Hase" by the way. Makers name is spelled a bit different and although it might be an old form of Hase...it must have sounded close enough for the maker to feel he wanted to use it for his logo. Nice to think the maker can at least be identified.

I will try to post a picture of the face of that clock later, pretty thing, just the dial is a big butchered. But maybe someone can lead me towards getting that repaired too...could be ;-)

Jeremy, thanks for the tip...thought it had to come off Not glued...I THINK
Till later, got a full day ahead of me...Thanks!

 

[Andy]

OK Lets get it over with...the pictures are below. Notice he damage on the dial...such a pretty dial, kinda sad that it got so chipped. If anyone has a good lead on where I might get this fixed, please let me know...

The wooden face is though quite in order...nice clock if I get it running again and get the dial fixed...any opinions?
Thanks!!!

 

[zepernick]

Andy --

There's a "Search" function for the Message Board (up there in the right hand corner) and if you type in "Haas" quite a few threads will come up. Indeed, several show identical Schotten movements from PHS.

In addition, there are several postings that for instance date (1883) when PHS started to use the "springing hare" as a cock on these movements. And show the ads in clockmakers' journals that announced this use.

The KK on the front edge of the plate is not a clockmaker's or assembler's mark. Rather, it's the mark of the framemaker or frame supplier. There's no established listing of these framemakers' marks.

Finally a reference from a 2008 thread:

It's "Philipp"...with the last two letters the doubles. It's easy to remember from "Mississippi" if you remember why it would be easy to remember from "Mississippi."

Or, at the time PHS adopted the Hase (hare) as a punning symbol, the word was still commonly spelled as "Haase" thereby making it even closer to the surname "Haas". A later spelling reform dropped the second "a".

Below is the oft-posted 1883 ad. The "Haase" spelling for "Hase" is just to the right of the beastie's nose.

The shield-style dial fit to a Schotten movement shows up in a ca 1906 PHS catalogue as model 358, below. We don't know when it was first offered or for how long.

Zepernick

 

[eskmill]

The face on Andy's Schottenwerk is, in my opinion an excellent fit to the early Art Nouveau style of 1896.

It all fits together quite nicely; age and style, hand-in-hand.

Below is an illustration concurrent with the style.

 

[Jeremy Woodoff]

It's a little hard to tell what the dial is made of--probably either enamel or celluloid, and I would guess enamel from the way it is cracked. If it's celluloid there's probably not much that can be done, but if it's enamel you might be able to find a dial restorer who works on them. An alternative might be someone who restores broken china. It would be expensive.

 

[Andy]

Thanks for the really wonderful information on this Haas clock. Thanks too for taking the time for me. I now know how to go about all this and it no longer seems a big problem to do. First time is always the most difficult...getting up the nerve to do something you have never done before.

I will though, before I get into it, check around on dial repairing, that seems the only big question, as what to do about it. Needs something done. One way or the other, if it gets done, it will be a worthy project.

On another one of those clocks...

Going now back and looking again at another BFclock, I found the info I have leaned about this Haas clock to be of help.

This other clock has been hanging silent in the stairwell for a few years and I had taken it down to look at because it didn't want to run. That one has never been apart I'd say. That is marked by hand with signatures and a date in 1907 and has the makers stamp of trademark in a few places.

So...armed with a dental mirror and a flashlight, I just got curious enough to take it down and look for a "rabbit". This one though has a large ornate "M", with the anchor staff hole in the top of the pointed middle of the M. And the makers mark stamped in red ink on one of the inside pates is a cloverleaf with the large M in it. So I figure it will also be able to be traced to a maker...isn't life interesting.

I will check back in on this thread when I get the Haas clock apart and clean...and hopefully I will think to take a few pictures along the way.
Thanks to all!
Andrew

 

[zepernick]

This other clock has been hanging silent in the stairwell for a few years and I had taken it down to look at because it didn't want to run. That one has never been apart I'd say. That is marked by hand with signatures and a date in 1907 and has the makers stamp of trademark in a few places.

So...armed with a dental mirror and a flashlight, I just got curious enough to take it down and look for a "rabbit". This one though has a large ornate "M", with the anchor staff hole in the top of the pointed middle of the M. And the makers mark stamped in red ink on one of the inside pates is a cloverleaf with the large M in it. So I figure it will also be able to be traced to a maker...isn't life interesting.

Greetings Andrew,

Some of us have a special interest -- completely normal, you bet -- in traditional wood-plate Black Forest movements. Indeed, this extends to such a later trademark-style piece, often termed a Hakenblech or even Hakenblechle in German. And have even written about them in, say, the UK-based CLOCKS magazine.

So some references have already appeared here, conveniently so. The 1903 trade ad below for instance shows the mark and the Hakenblech as on your example.

The mark itself was registered the same year. But in fact used earlier -- at least by 1901 -- on these clocks.

Now what you might want to do (what we would encourage you to do) is to get all of those Black Forest movements out from under your bed. Put them on top of the bed where they belong. Then take a whole series of photos. And share them with us.

Regards
Zep

 

[Andy]

Thanks Zep...printed that AD out to save.

I take the hint...keep forgetting someone else might be interested my junk.
Here is the face of the clock I last mentioned, one with the big M on it and the one the ad will be saved with. See the first picture only.
That one is pretty and art nouveau like the Haas clock...but rather dirty in the works as I said. Won't run.

...but not dirty like the next little stinker.

This one came right out of the attic, Grandpa passes away and the kids gotta sell the fellows house so they go in the attic to empty it. This was found, and is complete with the weights, the pendulum and a section of the chain too. Missing one of the side doors, but that is being looked for, so it might turn up too. Kinda small, around 8-9 inches tall...but some nice art work on it as you can see...tiny and hand painted on it. If you look at the works, you will see it is indeed in the "as found" condition. Bugs and dead spiders and a pound of dirt but all there. It has writing on the back of the face, which is domed by the way...not flat, but I can't get the hands off to remove the face and look at it. the hands are a thick brass and nicely filed and shaped. The Hakenblech is just a long strip of brass, no animal or letter.
All in all...a LOT of work and time to be stuck into it, but complete with the exception of the side door. And that's a good start.

I will try to get down and look what's under the bed, don't really remember...a few more such clocks I think...not sure, been to long since I shoved them under there to hide them from her majesty...

 

[Nobler]

In most cases, the minute hand of these clocks is just held on with a nut!

 

[Andy]

Thanks for the info...yes, held by a nut but I see it is really rusted and tight as can be. Can't just hold the hand and turn the nut. Hand will bend. So when I get back to this clock, it will have to be another approach. No worry, when I get to it, it will move, but not now, I 'm swamped with other things...
Thanks!
Andrew

 

[Nobler]

WD40 or a small burner to heat up the nut?

 

[Andy]

This would be a possibility, just have to really protect the face plate. Oil and heat will do it in. I will get it off, just haven't tried too hard yet as I have too many clocks apart at the moment, all with problems and things get quickly out of hand. Got to wait on it. Thanks for the the tips though!

 

[Andy]

Hope all had a nice Thanksgiving

Back again asking for a favor. Take a look at the pictures. I bought this thing, described as "not working" and when it arrived, I found some dope had removed the works and replaced it with a brand new...and rather expensive version of a black forest works with bell and all. Not cheap. They took the old works out cause it was most likely dirty and what happened to it...let's put it this way...the guy who sold it told me it came from the estate of his uncle...so uncle dear was evidently a profi...and likely trashed it. Love those profis.

Anyway...wanna look for a work for this thing. Can anyone look in their library and find out who sold this thing? It is sweet, with every bit of decoration cut out of copper and brass and even hammered out and engraved. Everything on the faceplate is there, even the hands are there, as seen in the photos. Judging from the condition of the front, I bet the works were in top condition...uncle was too lazy to clean them. Anyway...if it is a Haas clock, I'd be happy as I can get one...but if it is something else, I'd like to know, so I can start to search for the correct works...
Thanks so much, all of you!

 

[soaringjoy]

Andy, it's a shame, Zep can't see your pictures. He would have been
delighted once more.
First, can you show us a picture of the movement the clock has now (unless it's Hermle...)
Quite a few makers actually followed this art nouveau trend and the real big surge came just
about 1900. The biggest promoters and case designers were Etzold & Popitz and Kraft-Behrens,
both of Leipzig. PHS had similar shield clocks with BF wooden movements earlier, as Zep had
already pointed out. Later clocks by other makers could have had brass movements though.
The trend in fashion was not one that lasted, however. Kienzle still had the styles in their 1908
catalogue, but they seemed to have disappeared on a wider basis by ca. 1905.
At the time, I am searching and sifting old references for pictures of this clock style, but I have
not categorized them yet.

 

[Andy]

Thanks for the post...and the info. I will get pictures of the works but it is really quite new I think. The case is "Pressholz" and that should say enough about it. But...as mentioned, pictures are the best so you can see yourself. Quite a shame what the dear Uncle did to it and spent a lot of money too, for the works he installed. I will use it to make a new clock I think, put a new shield on it. But first to identify the old shield and see if I can find a replacement works of the correct type. The thing is quite nice, wish Uncle had left it alone. Sort of like installing a VW motor in a Rolls Royce. I will get back with the pictures. Thanks!!!

PS...Just grabbed the box quick and got the photos over with...the works are made by a FHS and 83 is above the trademark. 1983?
The works are NEW and not what you had hoped. But I can build a new clock shield for it and get use out of it at least. LOL

PS again. The original clockwork was 18cm by 15cm, you can see by the pencil markings on the back of the shield. Much larger than the works that are on there now. I asked the seller to look for the old clockworks for me...but you know how it is, he will most likely not do it...even though I told him he would be paid for them if he finds them. They most likely ended up in the trash. Profi workmanship...

 

[harold bain]

Andy, I don't see anything that would convince me this clock isn't all original, vintage 1983.

 

[Andy]

Harold,
The works that are now on there, are screwed over the area the old works were and a lot smaller than the old works. The old works were removed and replaced. I will pull the works off and we will all see a bit better. The shield is oak and the new works are housed in plywood and particle board. Let me get a screwdriver and pull it off. Stand by.

 

[Andy]

OK...this movement is maybe the third or fourth one this clock has had. The back is full of holes and you can see the light area where the smallest and maybe original movement was mounted Had two tabs on the top like a Kuckuck clock movement where it gets nailed into the movement case, if you pull the shield off on a kuckuck and look. Then there was a larger case sometime mounted, another case a bit larger and then the one that I just pulled off that was again smaller and left only four of the 16 screw holes I can count, not to mention about 20 small nail holes that are also there. This clock has seen service. Another point is that the minute hand just turns on the shaft and the square hole in the hand is about ten times the size on the shaft on the new movement. Hand went on a huge shaft...never meant for this movement. I know the Japs and the Indians have made a lot of old looking new "antiques" in past years, but I don't think this is one of them. This looks as I thought, to be a SW clock of about 1900 or so. My opinion, for what it's worth. Could be wrong, but I don't think so.

 

[soaringjoy]

I do agree that the Schild is antique. I have found dozens of similar clocks, but
no match, sorry. Without a clue to the maker, it's a needle in the haystack.

Harold, it was a rather common practice during the 1980s, to replace old movements
with Hermles. While I was doing research on the Zimmermann foundry bit, I even found
one in the museum, see pics.
What happened was, that the clock retailers and repairers promoted Hermles as good
as they could - "high quality German made movements" - perhaps with a large profits margin.

 

[Andy]

Thanks for the info...I knew it was older than the movement in it. But then, I had it in my hands and could see better what I had. I might have to just put it back together the way I got it if I can't find out who built it and leave it like that. No good putting another incorrect, but just older movement in it. That makes then just another mistake that has been done to it. Maybe like an American hot rod, built out of an antique car. Even if you wanted to, you couldn't fix it back to the way it was when it was built, so maybe it is better to leave the big motor in it and enjoy it for what it now is.

 

[soaringjoy]

Yes, Andy. There is much truth in that.