Schmid Fabrik SSS Marke ,with Front Pendulum, Need Help

[Raymond101]

Hi All , I am new to the forum . And I hope some kind person can give me some information on this clock.
acquired it from Ebay as Not working . Yup it . the case got a leg snapped off . Buts that's Not the problem . Missing Parts .
The anchor escapement was missing . So I was not going to let this stop me .
I manage to make a New shaft & following some diagrams I found on the internet on escapements .
The drive cog has 50 teeth backward facing . ( seems an Odd number 30 or 60 would make sense But I am sure there is a good
reason . There seems to be little or no information about this model with the pendulum on the front . There is a similar one with
the pendulum on the back . I made a Deadbeat . Is there any way to tell if it should be this type or half deadbeat .
I have put up some photos that I hope will help . If some has a picture or description of the correct type of escapement I will be
very grateful .
As is it is work with my funny escapement setup . It gains about 1 minute in the hour . It took me over 10 hours filling the harden steel pin into shape as the 2 jewels are ruby or sapphire with the center hole 0.38mm

 

[Willie X]

Schmidt made lots of clocks. Your best bet would be to find a 'like' replacement movement, or whole clock, on E-bay.
Willie X

 

[Raymond101]

Schmidt made lots of clocks. Your best bet would be to find a 'like' replacement movement, or whole clock, on E-bay.
Willie X

Thanks for the reply .
I have got it working but it runs fast . and I have looked for a similar movement but not going to pay loads of $$ and replace the whole clock which defeats the object of Repair .
At the moment the escapement cog rotates 1 revulsion every 27.8 seconds and I need 30 or little more to correct the speed .
I really want some details of the original escapement . I am sure someone has worked on a similar movement
This movement as far as I can find is mid centry or earlier

 

[R. Croswell]

I have got it working but it runs fast ....... At the moment the escapement cog rotates 1 revulsion every 27.8 seconds and I need 30 or little more to correct the speed . I really want some details of the original escapement .

The drive cog has 50 teeth backward facing . ....... I made a Deadbeat . Is there any way to tell if it should be this type or half deadbeat .

Sorry, I do not have information or pictures of this original movement but perhaps this will help a bit. The escapement has nothing to do with how fast the clock runs; that's primarily a function of the length of the pendulum. Shorten the pendulum a bit and it should run a bit faster.

A deadbeat and a half-deadbeat are essentially the same thing. A true deadbeat has no recoil. That is, it stops the escape wheel "dead" between each tick. A half-deadbeat is basically an imperfect deadbeat that, because of limited space the geometry is off a bit and there will be a slight recoil off of one of the pallets. The term is confusing; is not half of anything, and it is not a half-beat which is an entirely different animal.

Most escapements are one of two types; recoil or deadbeat. If the escape wheel teeth slant backward, away from the direction of rotation it is a recoil escapement. If the teeth slant forward, in the direction of rotation it is a deadbeat (or half-deadbeat). Seems unlikely (not impossible) to find jewelled pivots in a recoil escapement.

RC

 

[Raymond101]

Sorry, I do not have information or pictures of this original movement but perhaps this will help a bit. The escapement has nothing to do with how fast the clock runs; that's primarily a function of the length of the pendulum. Shorten the pendulum a bit and it should run a bit faster.

A deadbeat and a half-deadbeat are essentially the same thing. A true deadbeat has no recoil. That is, it stops the escape wheel "dead" between each tick. A half-deadbeat is basically an imperfect deadbeat that, because of limited space the geometry is off a bit and there will be a slight recoil off of one of the pallets. The term is confusing; is not half of anything, and it is not a half-beat which is an entirely different animal.

Most escapements are one of two types; recoil or deadbeat. If the escape wheel teeth slant backward, away from the direction of rotation it is a recoil escapement. If the teeth slant forward, in the direction of rotation it is a deadbeat (or half-deadbeat). Seems unlikely (not impossible) to find jewelled pivots in a recoil escapement.

RC

View attachment 714804

Hi thanks , I think I have made the wrong type . had a funny feeling it should have been a recoil . As the cog does rotate clockwise and the teeth slop backwards .
AS per your Blue arrow . Murphy Law if you think your right its wrong .
The Cog has 50 teeth and I have been timing 1 rotation is a 27 seconds apx and the clock gains 20min in six hours.
The pendulum is at its Max slowest. Length of the pendulum is 4 inch .
As you can see in the photo it does have 2 jewels .
Ok back to the drawing board I will knock up a recoil and try again . Being a pensioner I Have Time .
....
You said that the escapement does not effect the timing but it does effect the length of the swing & the swing as is
is very small about 3/4 inch from left to right .
I will try the recoil .
Thanks

 

[tracerjack]

This is the only SSS marked movement I have. Whether it is the same as yours I am not sure. Oh, I now see yours is a front pendulum, and mine is a rear. Still, I have tried to photograph the verge, which is circular with a slice cut out with the proper angles. It looks like it only spans 2-3 teeth. Movement is a recoil with jewels for the verge arbor, about 2 inches wide/ 5 cm and 3 inches tall, 7.5cm. I know the photos aren’t the best, but since it is not the exact same movement, this may not help at all.

 

[R. Croswell]

……..You said that the escapement does not effect the timing but it does effect the length of the swing & the swing as is
is very small about 3/4 inch from left to right .
I will try the recoil .
Thanks

The basic laws of physics say that the rate the pendulum swings remains constant regardless of how wide the pendulum swings (within reason). The pendulum is most accurate (closer to the perfect theoretical rate) when the swing is very small. The important takeaway is that one does not

perhaps the best indication that the clock has the correct pendulum swing is an assessment of the amount of over swing. That is, when the escapement ticks ( releases a tooth) the pendulum continues to move a bit further in the same direction before stopping and reversing direction. There are no absolutes, but as the over swing approaches zero the clock becomes increasingly unstable and eventually stops.

Generally, the verge will span about 1/4 of the escape wheel teeth, but there many exceptions. Usually the fewer teeth spanned, the wider the pendulum swing……. All else being equal. The amount of power available at the escape wheel also affects the pendulum amplitude. And the type of escapement, lift angle of the pallets, amount of lock, etc. can affect the amplitude, but will have only minor effect on the rate.

RC

edit: .....one does NOT control how fast or slow the clock runs by increasing or decreasing the pendulum amplitude. Sorry for the typo

 

[Raymond101]

This is the only SSS marked movement I have. Whether it is the same as yours I am not sure. Oh, I now see yours is a front pendulum, and mine is a rear. Still, I have tried to photograph the verge, which is circular with a slice cut out with the proper angles. It looks like it only spans 2-3 teeth. Movement is a recoil with jewels for the verge arbor, about 2 inches wide/ 5 cm and 3 inches tall, 7.5cm. I know the photos aren’t the best, but since it is not the exact same movement, this may not help at all.
View attachment 714853 View attachment 714855 View attachment 714856

Thanks. Yes my clock is the front pendulum. But it does have the holes for the back pendulum .
Could you take a better photo looking more down onto the actual verge arbor. .
I think it more like a pinch.
I tried to measure for a standard recoiled. But there is not enough room.
My first try was a side pin movement which does work. But runs too fast .
Yours is round which would account for the small distance.
Also can you measure the length of your pendulum swing apx.
Thanks really appreciate it does help.

 

[tracerjack]

Here is a video of the pendulum amplitude 1.5 inches/ 3.8 cm. SSS pendulum swing

Here are some photos of the verge. 4.7 mm diameter, 2.7mm opening, spans 3.5 teeth on escape wheel. Measurements were done with a micrometer, but I can never seem to get the same measurement twice. The ones I listed are at least close.

 

[Raymond101]

Here is a video of the pendulum amplitude 1.5 inches/ 3.8 cm. SSS pendulum swing

Here are some photos of the verge. 4.7 mm diameter, 2.7mm opening, spans 3.5 teeth on escape wheel. Measurements were done with a micrometer, but I can never seem to get the same measurement twice. The ones I listed are at least close.
View attachment 714946 View attachment 714945 View attachment 714947 View attachment 714948 View attachment 714949

Wow the pendulum is exactly the same but back mounted . I can't thank you enough that is Exactly what I need .
I really appreciate those photo are perfect . .
your clock insides are the same with a few differences cosmetic .
& also the air brake which is also missing . but not a problem could see how yours was just clipped over the shaft.
Thanks .
And also thanks for the video of the Swing . . & the measurement .Super million thanks .
Beautiful clock case

Edit . I will get a piece of rod and start working on this . Thanks for all the help .

 

[tracerjack]

Glad I could help. Hope it works out well with your clock.

 

[Raymond101]

I also want say a big thanks to every one who helped and replied to my post .
I now have enough Info to finish the job.
Thanks @ R. Croswell To the insight of the theory . & directions of deadbeat & recoil .
& special Thanks to @ tracerjack for taking the time and effort to take such wonderful Photos .
I also hope that this post may be helpful to someone else I am sure there are other old Movements of this design
Now to build the arbor which does not look to hard .
Thanks

 

[tracerjack]

Here are a few more measurements. Can't claim they are exact, but close. This is one tiny verge! And I now see I have digital calipers, not a micrometer. The green/red looks like a 90 degree angle, but I have no idea what the red/blue angle is. Looks like 45 degrees, but it is so tiny I had to put my strongest lenses on to even see it. A book on recoil escapements would surely have that information. Our experts on the forum may know as well.

 

[Raymond101]

Here are a few more measurements. Can't claim they are exact, but close. This is one tiny verge! And I now see I have digital calipers, not a micrometer. The green/red looks like a 90 degree angle, but I have no idea what the red/blue angle is. Looks like 45 degrees, but it is so tiny I had to put my strongest lenses on to even see it. A book on recoil escapements would surely have that information. Our experts on the forum may know as well.
View attachment 714958

Thanks so Much that is fantastic . I can get the angle from the diameter & radius .
From what I've read on recoil 45 deg is correct .
I am working on it now . I don,t have a lathe found an old Bosh battery drill that i have mounted in a frame and
will power it from my lab Power supply . will use a 6mm bolt and remove the thread and drop the diameter to 4.7mm
My shaft that I made is thinner 1.2mm made from High tensile steel . Its hard as Hell took me 10 hours just putting
the pins on the end to go throw the jewels 0.32 mm.
This is going to be fun . Not sure why they made it so dam small there is room to make it a little bigger .

Being a pensioner I do Have time to kill . and I was looking for a new project . I do electronics so I have the tools etc
I was thinking of making a pickup to connect to my scope to adjust the timing . Next Project .
Mean while thanks a million for all the details . your movement is exactly the same other than the bell is in a
different location .
I do Hope you have not messed up your clock taking all the measurement .

Thanks again . I will put up photos When I succeed and it ticks @ 60 mins per hour and Not 50 mins per hour.
Mind you a shorter day maybe be better . work 9 TO 5 and be home by 3:30

EDIT :: . I came up with a better idea not to make round as I had no way to clamp it to the shaft . I am making it
half moon with a hole and tag to lock it to the shaft . the bottom half will be circle with the groove .
its an easy way for me to machine with what I have @ hand . the dimensions will be the same as your diagram

 

[Raymond101]

Here are a few more measurements. Can't claim they are exact, but close. This is one tiny verge! And I now see I have digital calipers, not a micrometer. The green/red looks like a 90 degree angle, but I have no idea what the red/blue angle is. Looks like 45 degrees, but it is so tiny I had to put my strongest lenses on to even see it. A book on recoil escapements would surely have that information. Our experts on the forum may know as well.
View attachment 714958

some good news after a day of filing .and redoing etc etc . it finely started ticking . the verge looked really nice on the first attempts by now it looks very messy .
it seems to run with a much nicer swing . Now one revolution is now 29.53 seconds . I meant to ask you what yours is?
To me that looks fast . It has a very pleasant tick tock & sounds even by ear .
The verge is really hard to make fiddle as hell and only using Swiss needle files used a slow speed drill to make the round bit . Then I dropped on the floor half an hour . panic ..
its been running 1 hour so far .
Edit .. 10 hours it's now slow by 20 minutes. So it now a pendulum adjustment.
The photo was the first attempt. I made it bigger think I can make it smaller. Which I did . The final was reduced to 4.6mm the glove depth 1.2mm
The width 2.2mm apx .
I noticed that the pendulum arm size is the exact size as the groove. I had to solder the final verge onto the shaft with miniature pinch pliers. & a micro iron.
Sorry this not the correct way.
But at least it now lives and it's working. Not a good time keeper . But I think I'm on the right track. Only time will tell .
It's not going to win any accurate awards.
Thanks you, and everyone else for the great help.

 

[Raymond101]

Hi just an update on this clock had to replace the escapement as the first prototype failed after 6 months.
So I had to make something different not to NASA standards by a long way .as it was impossible to find original part for the miss peice. Used thin spring steel.
It's keeping within a few seconds a day.
The original distance was 2mm now 4mm . The scale 200 = 2mm .
Best regards to all .

 

[tracerjack]

I’m surprised it works with what looks like pin pallets on a recoil escape wheel. Are the pin arms round, or do they have the recoil angles ground onto them?

 

[Raymond101]

I’m surprised it works with what looks like pin pallets on a recoil escape wheel. Are the pin arms round, or do they have the recoil angles ground onto them?

Yes, the pins do have the correct angles ground into them .
It was dam hard getting them true .
As the space is very tight.
Not sure why they did it this way.
Maybe why the later versions had the pendulum on the back with a suspension spring..
All done to try us

 

[tracerjack]

What a clever fix. Congrats!

 

[Raymond101]

What a clever fix. Congrats!

Thanks . Also, it's now got a beautiful swing distance just over an inch & has a beat of 554 ms
Which is just a tad slow needs, very fine adjustment on the pendulum.

 

[shutterbug]

Yes, very inventive! It's out of beat though

 

[Raymond101]

Yes, very inventive! It's out of beat though 

[/QUOTES]
So why is it keeping perfect time .
?

 

[shutterbug]

It can probably run that way just fine. But it will like being in beat better You want a nice even cadence. The beat is set at the crutch area. Some are friction fit so they can be moved, others need to be bent. Show us a pic of yours, both top and bottom and we'll be able to help.

 

[Raymond101]

Thanks . The area is too small to get a photo. The pins as you see them are have a angle polished and fit exactly to the tooth on engagement. They are not both at the same hight the recoil pin is lower to interlock . I can assure you it's in beat to my scope and angle measures it's within 10 -4 error .

It's the screen view was just a quick run from phone camera.
Thanks