Schatz Ships Clock Bell issue

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by kd8tzc, Jun 26, 2020.

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  1. kd8tzc

    kd8tzc Registered User

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    #1 kd8tzc, Jun 26, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2020
    I bought a Shatz ships clock recently, and fell in love with it since it said "Germany" and not West Germany (pre war possibly??). Anyhow, it chimes unlike a ships clock should. Sometime it chimes 16 times, sometimes 20, never less than 12 though.

    Any ideas? I will photos below are my movement, which looks a little different than one I found here online where it does not seem to have an arm that drops into that center cog with the notches (see this post for the one I am comparing mine to). Possibly it is a different movement. On the bell side it has a stamp where it says SCH with Aug Schatz & Sone Germany, and then below that Two Jewels Unadjusted)


    IMG_0395.jpg IMG_0397.jpg
     
  2. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    #2 roughbarked, Jun 26, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2020
    Ships clocks were made to announce the change of shift. Ever heard of; "It is eight bells and the sea is calm"?

    Thus essentially, if you are able to forget Big Ben or Whittington, look at it in the division of how many bells to announce, you will realise that there is nothing wrong with the strike at all.

    Didn't read your post properly. My bad.

    It should never strike twenty anywhere .It may strike sixteen on eight bells. These are two different symptoms. They may though stem from the same cause. Which will be out of synch somewhere. Which has been said by RC.
     
  3. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    It would help to know what has been done to this movement recently, and a video showing what's going on but I'll offer a few things to look at. Apparently, if I understand correctly, the striking begins but doesn't stop until way too many strikes have struck. See the picture: make sure the rack hook spring is in place and supplying tension to the rack hook. When the strike begins, the rack should drop and the gathering pallet should pick up one tooth and the rack hook should hold it so the gathering pallet picks up the next tooth and after the last tooth is gathered the rack hook should drop off the end of the rack and the little tab on the rack hook should slip into the notch in the cam that holds the gathering pin, AND a pin on the stop wheel should contact the stop lever which is part of the rack hook, to stop the striking.

    If the rack isn't being gathered that should be obvious. If the rack is fully gathered but the striking does not stop, then most likely the brass cam that holds the gathering pin is not positioned correctly on its arbor. The result being that the stop pin is not in position to be arrested by the stop blade so the cam lifts the rack hook and it goes around again for another strike. Before adjusting anything, make sure all the levers move freely. To adjust the gathering pallet cam, unless it is loose and has slipped, you will need to pull it partly off the arbor before twisting it, otherwise you can bend of ring off the arbor.

    If possible show us a video so we can be more specific and not have to guess.

    RC

    IMG_0395a.jpg
     
  4. kd8tzc

    kd8tzc Registered User

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    Thanks RC... I have no idea of the history of the clock as I just received it. I will try and get a video and post it so you can see.
     
  5. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    I can see what is wrong. At first, I thought is the rack upside down but no. There is a movable section of the rack which must land on whatever segment of the snail or cam (in the instance of ship's bell clocks). If you check the difference between your clock and the photo link that you posted, you will see that yours needs to be shaped the same way by moving that section so that it does land on the cam in the centre.

    You'd already seen the issue but had thought yours may be a different movement.
     
  6. kd8tzc

    kd8tzc Registered User

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    Here is a video.

     
  7. kd8tzc

    kd8tzc Registered User

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    It looks like the arm that is on the same pivot as the arm with the teeth needs to rotate a bit (looking at other Schatz movements), but by how much?
     
  8. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    Have watched your video. Now read my last post and have a look at your rack and make it look like the rack in the photo you linked from elsewhere.
    This is adjustable but if it is too loose on the friction slip, you may need to tighten it in the correct position.
     
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  9. kd8tzc

    kd8tzc Registered User

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    Okay, just adjusted to like the picture and now I only ever get two bells (never an odd number). Must have adjusted too much?
     
  10. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    Yep. Now you know where you are, you need to simply move and observe. It has to be able to fall to the deepest as well as the highest of the notches in the cam.
     
  11. kd8tzc

    kd8tzc Registered User

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    Okay, but why no odd chimes... only even?
     
  12. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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  13. kd8tzc

    kd8tzc Registered User

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    Right, but at the bottom of the hour it should be an uneven strike.
     
  14. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    Yes. Sorry, I've edited that post to read better.
     
  15. kd8tzc

    kd8tzc Registered User

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    I don't think I asked my question correctly. At 30 past the hour, I should get an uneven number of bells. Say it is 1:30, I should hear 3 bells, not 2 bells again.
     
  16. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    8 bells: 12:00, 4:00, 8:00
    1 bell: 12:30, 4:30, 8:30
    2 bells: 1:00, 5:00, 9:00
    3 bells: 1:30, 5:30, 9:30
    4 bells: 2:00, 6:00, 10:00
    5 bells: 2:30, 6:30, 10:30
    6 bells: 3:00, 7:00, 11:00
    7 bells: 3:30, 7:30, 11:30
     
  17. kd8tzc

    kd8tzc Registered User

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    Exactly... why am I not hearing the odd bells. I hear 2 bells, 2 bells, 4 bells, 4 bells, 6 bells, 6 bells, 8 bells, 8 bells, 2 bells....
     
  18. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    Keep moving and adjusting the movable arm or as it is properly called, the rack tail. It has to be in exactly the correct position. Note: look at your last video. You should be able to get seven bells but not ten.
     
  19. kd8tzc

    kd8tzc Registered User

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    I've moved the rack tail back and forth and no matter what I always get even strikes. Very frustrating.
     
  20. kd8tzc

    kd8tzc Registered User

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    I think I see what is throwing me. With the bell off, I see the hammers moving, but it really is not hitting the bell if it were there. Let me replace the bell and it should be more clear.

    When I do that I do hear the correct bells on the half hour.

    What does it mean though when at the top of bottom of the hour, it starts to want to chime but doesn't? It does this every so often? More adjustment?
     
  21. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    Yes. The adjustment was out of synch. You simply need to retune that synch and make sure it stays there. If it is too loose it may move a little bit every time it operates. Which will of course become even more confusing every time.
     
  22. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    The snail uses the same step for the full hour and the half hour. You will notice that there are only 4 steps for each segment of the snail. There is a mechanism somewhere that stops the last strike at the half hour before the hammer can hit the bell. Look for this mechanism, a lever, that should move at the have hour. It likely doesn't catch to prevent the last strike.

    Uhralt
     
  23. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    #23 roughbarked, Jun 26, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2020
    It is right in front, on the extreme left.. The lever stops the front bell lever on the odd strike. fFor the even strikes, that same lever stays out of the way to let both bells strike.

    There is a cam which operates on the half hour to actuate this lever and it is under the hour wheel and plate?
     
  24. kd8tzc

    kd8tzc Registered User

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    So I have had this running for a few days now, and the bells are working like they should, except when it comes to 8 bells. It always chimes 2 bells, and then at the next half hour mark it starts with 1 bell, and progresses just fine until it gets to 8. I'm assuming I have adjusted the rack tail too much to the left (counter clockwise), and need to just adjust a hair(?) back clock wise?
     
  25. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    You should be able to see what exactly happens. For both 7 and 8 bells the rack tail should fall on the deepest step of the snail. It seems that at the full hour (which should have 8 bells) the snail is already in the highest position. You probably need to move the snail a bit counter clockwise.

    Uhralt
     
  26. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    I had this same problem on a new Hermle ships clock movement. It was shipped with two lever bent either during packing or shipping.

    The Silent lever was bent a bit and it impinged on the rack just enough that it would not fall all the way for 8 bells, but hung up on the silent lever at basically the 6 bell position

    The other lever that was bent was the 1/2 hour lock out lever. It was too high to catch the lockout properly.

    What you are describing matches my experience with the silent lever not being quite right. It is a fine adjustment. Too far one way and the tab wont work in the slot of the dial. Too far the other way and it catches the rack.
     
  27. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    I'm having a little trouble understanding "when it comes to 8 bells. It always chimes 2 bells", but generally when a strike begins with a single bell instead of a pair the problem is that the "star wheel" didn't advance quite far enough to allow the last hammer drop to complete. A slight adjustment of the gathering pallet to allow the star to advance a bit more before locking is usually the answer. If it strikes 2-bells at 12, 4, and 8 then the snail is out of position. There should only be a single strike at 12:30, 4:30, and 8:30. all other strikes begin with two bells close together. I think a video showing what it is doing might be helpful. From your description I'm not sure that I understand just what is going on.

    RC
     
  28. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    It sounds to me like you could just move the hour hand to sync with what you are hearing. Also, I didn't see noted that the highest number of strikes should be 9. This would occur at 12:30, 4:30, and 8:30.
     
  29. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    There should only be one bell at 12:30, 4:30, and 8:30, and the highest number of strikes is 8 which happens at 12:00, 4:00 and 8:00 - see post #16. The strikes occur in pairs - two strikes close together but on the half-hour the last bell of the pair is arrested. I think we really need to see a video of the OP's clock to fully understand what's going on. You may be correct that the hour hand is just in the wrong position.

    RC
     
  30. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Yes. 8 bells followed by one for a total of 9. I must not have described it clearly :)
     
  31. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    At 12: 8 bells
    At 12:30: Just 1bell. Never more than 8 bells at any time.

    Uhralt
     
  32. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    What Uhralt said, never more than 8 bells.

    RC
     
  33. kd8tzc

    kd8tzc Registered User

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    I'll try and get a video up. I don't have the time to do it now. The hands are NOT in the wrong position as all other times have the correct bell pattern.
     
  34. kd8tzc

    kd8tzc Registered User

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    Okay, it is acting a little strange it seems (more strange than I thought). Maybe the hands are in the incorrect position, but at times, it strikes the correct number of bells, and at other times it does not. Hopefully someone smarter than me can tell me what I need to do. I tried to make sure you could see the snail and other parts.

     
  35. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    It looks like the hour hand is on eleven when it should be on twelve. Just move the hour hand ahead one hour and it should be fine

    RC
     
  36. kd8tzc

    kd8tzc Registered User

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    #36 kd8tzc, Jun 29, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2020
    Edited: Then why do some positions chime correctly but others do not? Meaning, right at the beginning, 10:30 had five bells (correct), but then it went to 8 bells 11. Then as 12:00 it was 2 bells (incorrect) and at 12:30 it was 1 bell (correct); 1:00 was 2 bells (correct); 1:30 was 3 bells (correct); 2:00 was 4 bells (correct); 2:30 was 7 bells (incorrect); 3:00 was 8 bells (incorrect); 3:30 was 1 bell; and 4:00 was 2 bells (incorrect).
     
  37. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    Your hour hand needs to be moved one hour ahead. But this will not solve your problem at eight bells. For that, you need to disengage the snail and move it a tad counter clockwise. Your video shows that in the 8 bells position the rack tail gets caught on the edge of the next step, the highest one, when it still should land on the lowest one. That causes the clock to strike only once.

    Uhralt
     
  38. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    Looking closer to the video it appears that the rack sometimes doesn't fall all the way down until the tail hits the snail. That causes too few strikes. Check if the rack is totally free to fall or if something is in its way. There could also be old, gummy oil on the post for the rack that doesn't let it fall free. Take the rack off from its post and clean it thoroughly. Do not oil when you put it back on.

    Uhralt
     
  39. kd8tzc

    kd8tzc Registered User

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    #39 kd8tzc, Jun 29, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2020
    How to I move the snail a tad CCW?

    As for the rack, possibly that is because the movement was on a 45 degree angle so I could record and rotate the hands. I'll take a look though.
     
  40. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    Take the retaining clip off the minute wheel, then tremove the washer, then lift the hour wheel up and over one tooth on the minute wheel pinion. This should assist in synchronising the snail with the rack tail.
     
  41. kd8tzc

    kd8tzc Registered User

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    EDIT: Okay, really dumb question, but since this is geared, how could it have gotten off by one tooth?

    Also, is there some way to mark the hands so I know where should go and not have to go through the guessing game again?
     
  42. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    Sometimes this occurs during reassembly. Sometimes the snail may move on the hour wheel.
    As I have said earlier, keep on observing and making small changes. It may be that the angle of the rack tail set up is still out by just a smidgin.
     
  43. kd8tzc

    kd8tzc Registered User

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    okay, I think I figured out what one of the issues might be. The rack tail has two parts. The back part which has that cam shape at the head, and then there is a part on top of that (away from the movement) that seems more like it is sprung and has a pin protruding back towards the back part. How is this supposed to sit on the snail? Does one side slip behind the snail and the other in front, and that pin is what rides and stops on the snail? See the image below.

    InkedIMG_0419_LI.jpg
     
  44. kd8tzc

    kd8tzc Registered User

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    I did it!!!!!! Holy cow, I think I figured it out!!! Oh my... I just fiddled with it for some time by adjusting the rack tail ever so slightly and the snail and I could see it starting to line up so the rack tail would line up right where it needed to for the 8 bells. It was driving be nuts as it was so close, but then just the right adjustments and it slipped right in.

    One thing I have noticed though is the movement is really oily (too oily if you ask me). I think I will let it sit for a while now and maybe someday I will get the guts to figure out how to clean it and oil it properly.

    I still want to know though about that rack tail in the picture above. I adjusted it so the back part was riding on the ledges on the snail gear, but just curious what the proper way is (and what is that front part with the pin).

    I really wish I could find a book that details all of this... I'm assuming that doesn't exist?

    Thank you again for your patience with me.
     
  45. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    No guessing needed, just let the clock strike and put the hands at a position that is correct for the strike. All consequent strikes should be correct.
    Great you've got the clock striking correctly! Many people struggle to understand how the strike in ships bell clock works.
    Uhralt
     
  46. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    I believe that Steven Conover's book, "Striking Clock Repair" covers this clock. From your description you are correct that the projection out the back side of the rack tail contacts the snail. That part is often spring loaded and angled on the end. It is designed to be pushed aside if the rack isn't gathered and the snail advances as when the strike is run down or not wound.

    The extra oil isn't causing any harm if the clock is running OK, but it is a dust magnet.

    RC
     
  47. kd8tzc

    kd8tzc Registered User

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    Any idea what model movement this is? I think someone said Hermle, but since there are no markings on it, just curious how I might be able to tell.
     
  48. Allan Wolff

    Allan Wolff Moderator
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    #48 Allan Wolff, Jun 30, 2020 at 7:39 AM
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020 at 7:48 AM
    This is not correct. If you have split the 2 pieces of the snail tail with one piece in front of the snail and one in back, the rack will not drop into place correctly. Both pieces should go in front of the snail. The back arm is for support and the front arm with the pin is flexible. Under normal operation, the pin will go all the way through the hole in the back arm and drop onto the snail. It is in 2 pieces and the pin is angled on the end so that if the hands are turned backwards, the front arm and pin will deflect away from the snail and not jam or break.
    IMG_5664.JPG
     
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  49. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Are there different kinds of ships bells? kd8 mentions the way I remember them working (I added red highlights). The hour repeats at the half hour, followed by a single strike to indicate the half hour. So at 3:00 you have 6 bells, and 3:30 you have 7 bells. But you guys are saying that 4:00 will have 8 bells, but 4:30 will have only 1? I'm having a remembering issue obviously ;) Logic would say 9. Maybe I should have went Navy instead of Army (not that I had any choice).
     
  50. kd8tzc

    kd8tzc Registered User

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    I may have spoken too soon... The clock just struck 7 bells for 8:30 am. Looks like I need to open it up again and see what it going on and what changed since last night.
     

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