Schatz Queen Ann swinger failure

Discussion in 'Electric Horology' started by Chris, Jul 19, 2011.

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  1. Chris

    Chris Registered User
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    I got in a Schatz Queen Ann Elexacta "mystery swinger" that seems to function, but will not stay running.

    I pulled apart the movement and cleaned the pivots, etc. The electronics seem to be functioning properly, as it does unwind and zap when the contacts touch. The brass pendulum bob is present as is the suspended weight for the movement. It seems to be in beat.

    Any suggestions?
     
  2. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    There are several critical areas on any compound pendulum clock and more on the Schatz Queen Ann swinger.

    Number one is the mass of the dry cell. The design was for a zinc-carbon (old style) dry cell. Up-to-date alkaline leak-proof cells have too much mass. Either find a cheap old dry cell or try substituting a "C" size cell with a metal spacer.

    Number two is the condition of the suspending needles. These are hardened highly polished steel rounded tips that fit into the cups that must be clean.

    Number three is that the Queen Ann swinger must have the original small movement pendulum: its mass must be such that it responds to the escapement without hesitation. Too heavy or too light and it won't work.

    Note that there is a detented counterpoise weight at the top of the clock to set the poise of the pendulum which should be in line with the reference plumb-bob.

    Other owners or one-time possessors may have more to say about these fascinating but poor timekeepers.
     
  3. Chris

    Chris Registered User
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    Well, oddly enough, I happened to watch a Youtube video of one working. The gentleman set it up so you could see the back side of the clock operating. A spark of genius hit me and I decided to reverse it in the cups to expose the movement (so I could look for an issue). It has been running constantly facing backwards ever since! There must be an issue with the cups or pins, or some other simple yet elusive issue.

    The clock is 100% original and now freshly cleaned and oiled as well. I'll keep investigating. Thanks!
     
  4. Chris

    Chris Registered User
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    Ok, the Queen Anne lives. It's been working properly for over a day, but it really seems to lose a lot of time. Now, the funny thing is that the pendulum shows the + sign pointing down, meaning to lower it to speed up the clock; is that right:???: :confused:

    I don't necessarily care for the clock style, but the concept is really neat!
     
  5. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    Chris wrote in part, "Now, the funny thing is that the pendulum shows the + sign pointing down, meaning to lower it to speed up the clock; is that right?"

    Yes, that is correct. You are dealing with a compound pendulum with the center of mass or balance point slightly above the center of its length. The rate will wander widely with every variable. Yet artistic and unique.
     
  6. Burkhard Rasch

    Burkhard Rasch Registered User
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    from my experiance the time keeping capabilities of these is not as bad as sugested.Remember they were developed in the 60ies and 70ies,when even germans were acustomed to certain standards of time keeping.If they had been that incorrect they wouldn´t have been sold at all.Mine-with correct battery and clean,intact support pins and cups-keeps within 2 min/week.Try and enjoy!
    Burkhard
     
  7. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User

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    I would not complain with 2 mins a week with a spring wound 8 day american clock, just for comparision.
     
  8. Chris

    Chris Registered User
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    What is the correct battery for them today? I read somewhere that a D was too big and that a C should be used in its place. That would reduce the weight up top and possibly correct the massive time loss, right? This one is waaaay too slow, even maxed out on the pendulum bob.
     
  9. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    #9 eskmill, Jul 24, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2011
    You probably read it here in this thread Chris. :p

    "Number one is the mass of the dry cell. The design was for a zinc-carbon (old style) dry cell. Up-to-date alkaline leak-proof cells have too much mass. Either find a cheap old dry cell or try substituting a "C" size cell with a metal spacer."

    The older flashlight dry cells are simple zinc-carbon cells and don't weigh very much compared to today's leak-resistant alkaline dry cells. Alkaline dry cells have a very different physical design and are much heavier than the old style cells which are required in your Schatz Queen-Ann battery clock.

    Either find an old style cell of the proper size or try a physically smaller dry cell with a wad of tinfoil or something to make-up for the shorter length.
     
  10. Richard T.

    Richard T. Deceased
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    For those of us not familiar with this clock, please post a couple of pictures.

    Thanks

    Richard T.
     
  11. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    #11 eskmill, Jul 24, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2011
    Photos of Schatz Queen Ann compound pendulum battery clock.

    Note in the photo of the movement, that a "C" size alkaline type flashlight cell has been substituted for the more massive "D" size alkaline cell.

    The motivating pendulum is the small round lead disc situated on the pendulum leader just below the point of suspension; it is not original but one I made not knowing the correct size or mass. It worked well enough to keep the clock in motion.

    Note also the detented beat setting balance weight at the top of the case.
     

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  12. Richard T.

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    Hello Les,

    Thanks very much for the photos. I don't have much to do with battery clocks and was unfamiliar with what was being discussed.

    Best Regards,

    Richard T.
     
  13. Chris

    Chris Registered User
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    Sorry, I don't have any pics of a Schatz swinger. Basically, it's a wall-mounted, battery-powered version of a mystery swinger without the statue.

    I changed the battery over to a C cell and it seems to be running much faster, but still not quite there yet. I'll keep an eye on it and report back. Thanks!
     
  14. Chris

    Chris Registered User
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    Well, the C cell made a difference, but it's still losing time. It's pretty much maxed out on the pendulum. The weight "pendulum" next to the movement looks 100% original. Where to go from here?
     
  15. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Hi
    Get a battery clip for the C cell and mount it below the movement.
    Example: www.jamco.com part# 216347
    It will go faster if the mass of the battery is closer to the
    fulcrum. If too fast, you can always add a little weight in
    the old battery clip.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  16. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User

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    Will these clocks not work with a d cell.
     
  17. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Hi
    I believe they are intended to work with the older style carbon/zinc
    D cells. These had the outside case made of paper over the zinc
    negative electrode. The electrode was the case. These often leaked
    before the cell was totally expended.
    The newer metal encased carbon/zinc are heavier and the alkaline
    cells are heavier still.
    The only recourse is to lower the weight above the fulcrum or
    use a lighter battery. I suspect going to a AA would be enough
    but the battery life would be compromised.
    He could try wrapping a AA in cardboard and tape to beef
    up the diameter. I believe they are about the same length as
    the C cell.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  18. john48

    john48 Registered User

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    I just found one in a local antique shop! But missing the counter weight and the Wall mount with cups. I received detailed inforamtion from a gentleman that had one on e-bay a few weeks back. He also said these clocks would not run on modern D battery. I am either going to sell for parts or "Spend Some Time!" making counterweight to the dimentions and weight he provided me with, and a nice wall mount. Worth it?
    Here is pic's of Mine.
     

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  19. ruslaw32

    ruslaw32 Registered User

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    May I jump in & introduce myself as well? I'm new to the NAWACC & still must learn the protocol of using the message board, and everything else for that matter. I have owned a Schatz Queen Ann Elexacta Wall Clock since I purchased it new in Sennelager, Germany in 1963 as a young soldier. The clock kept reasonably good time, but not perfect, until I returned to the U.S. & ran out of German batteries. The clock wouldn't run on American "D" batteries, not knowing this I took the clock to a repair shop which kept it six weeks & "repaired" it, returning it to me with a German battery in it......being too busy earning a living, the next time the clock stopped I stuck it in the attic where it remained until recently and a new interest was sparked, then the question arose again, "WHY" does this clock not run on an ordinary American 1.5 volt monocell alkaline battery such as Duracell.....I've learned a lot just from reading these posts about the clock, thanks much,, I'll try these ideas!! -- Ruslaw32
     
  20. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    Welcome to the NAWCC Message board Russ. and thank you for the narrative about how you acquired your Schatz Queen Ann battery clock and the trials of ownership and repair. It is interesting to have the owner's first-hand experience documented.

    I'm glad that you realize these odd timepieces are not what the collector and would-be repairer generally encounters.

    I wish you the best and hope you are able to once again enjoy your clock, a small momento of your service to the country. :Party:
     
  21. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User

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    Is there such a thing as an adaptor so i can put a c cell in or do i look for a c cell battery holder.
     
  22. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Hi
    Looking at one of the other recent post on one of these swingers,
    he'd used a AA cell.
    He said he had to add some weight and use pieces of lead.
    I'd suggest something a little different.
    Get or turn a piece of wood or dowel stock that is the
    diameter of the D cell ( maybe the same as coat rack? ).
    Drill a hole right trough the middle to allow a AA cell to fit
    it.
    Drill a hole off to the side to slide a piece of iron rod into.
    Try rotating it in the dowel battery holder until it gets in the
    regulation range.
    The rod towards the top of the holder will make it slower and
    towards the bottom to make it faster.
    It would be best to have it right in the middle at the same height
    as the AA cell, that way you could more easily adjust for different
    manufactures of cells.
    This would be easiest done by using a piece of rod that was
    started out too heavy and grind it down until it worked with the
    dowel rotated to the middle.
    Hope that made sense.
    You could then make up several and offer it to others :)
    Tinker Dwight
     
  23. john48

    john48 Registered User

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    I believe that Russlaw32, has Very nice Detailed drawings and dimentions of the Counterweight, pendelum for this clock! Please share with All needing the correct Dimentions, Weight etc. for this clock. He has helped me out previous to this. And I believe Many would benifit from his Very precise Drawings, Dimentions, Weight, etc. He is New! to Nawcc but Very Precise with his discription, and A Great asset! Thanks, John
     
  24. ruslaw32

    ruslaw32 Registered User

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    #24 ruslaw32, Jul 30, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2011
    John, I will be glad to TRY to post the chart you mentioned, if I can figure out the "imaging" process. I notice in the previous posts that it seems several "Queen Ann Swinger" owners are missing the counterweight in back of the clock & being an owner myself, I can understand why, the weight has dropped off my clock many times while doing just routine things, like changing batteries, etc....enough chat, lets see if I can include the image....Well I uploaded the file to somewhere, now I gotta see if I can find it! OK, I found it, right where it belonged!! Thats a great process!! Back to the chart, I made the measurements with a ruler, which means they're not precise (I don't have a micrometer or caliper so it would be precise - wouldn't know how to use them anyway):= Since batteries have also been discussed a few times, let me include this as well, in case it might be of some value , I wrote it several days ago but decided to delay Posting:::::

    Thank you for the kind words, I appreciate them! Concerning the batteries for the Schatz Queen Ann "swinger", Today I finally received a modern German "D" battery in the mail, so now I could at least put that avenue of thought to rest, even if I accomplished nothing else. The first thing I did was weigh the battery on my postal scales (sorry I didn't have anything more accurate) for comparison with the American battery. The German "D" battery (Varta Brand) appears to be steel covered, is a 1.5v Monocell Alkaline battery & weighs 4.8 ounces as to the American (Duracell) "D" batteries 5.1 ounces, not much difference but the german battery was far more powerful than the Duracell (possibly due to freshness?). The Duracell "C" battery weighed 2.5 ounces. All three of the batteries energized the clock, but the response was not to my liking and I'm stuck at that point my clock may possibly have a part or parts (that I don't know the name of) :eek: worn out, but I'm in no hurry to grab my tools.....I gotta eliminate all the simple, obvious things first!!! By the way, if anyone needs a modern German battery I got mine from "Parts Express" on the Internet (Google Them) - Ruslaw32
     

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  25. ruslaw32

    ruslaw32 Registered User

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    I forgot to also include the original clock instructions, they came with the clock & have survived almost 50 years, world travel & the uprooting moves that goes with the travel, hope these are interesting! :cool: - Ruslaw32
     

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  26. ruslaw32

    ruslaw32 Registered User

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    #26 ruslaw32, Jul 31, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2011
    Another point that I don't remember being mentioned about the "Queen Ann Swinger"; it is also affected by air currents in the room. The source can be open windows or doors, floor vents nearby, area fan, etc. I have had nine stopped by such breezes, and i suspect gentle air currents could also cause it to lose or gain time. - There is one thing on my wish list; I wish that someone with the skill to do would make an "exploded" view of the clocks mechanism by drawing an accurate "road map" as they disassemble the the clocks works, showing exactly where each part goes in relation to the next nearest part, with each part tdentified (asking a lot, huh). - Ruslaw32
     
  27. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Hi
    This doesn't make sense. Are you saying that the german
    battery, that weighs more than the american C battery
    made the clock run at the right speed? That would be a
    cell weighing 4.8 ozs made it run at the right speed?
    The other fellow is having problems of the clock not running
    fast enough. That would indicate that the weight above the
    fulcrum was too much, even with the C battery.
    I don't get it. Maybe it is his small drive pendulum that
    is the problem and not the battery.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  28. ruslaw32

    ruslaw32 Registered User

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    Sorry I didn't make myself understood more clearly. Actually my clock didn't run at all in a controlled manner, its mechanism was "energized", meaning in this case that that the electricity reached the "motor" & made the moving parts move, but move in an uncontrolable manner....my clock is far from the stage of regulating its movement & time keeping. First I have to get it to "run". By uncontrolable movement I mean that there was a very rapid, noisy action by the moving parts, acting as though one or two parts could possibly be worn to the point that the movement is not controlled(?) The clock did this while held in my hand as well, and is not new to me, I've seen it a few times before. I was/am merely passing on an observation by someone that, unfortunately, knows nothing about clock repair making my attempts to communicate difficult......anyway, the German battery made the mechanism run (in the uncontrolled manner) at least three times as fast as the american battery, in this case considering the clocks condition, I doubt that means anything except the German battery is fresher. - Ruslaw32
     
  29. Chris

    Chris Registered User
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    Wow, this clock is kickin' my butt!! It runs fine, but I've tried D-cell carbon zinc batteries, c-size alkaline with a brass shim to hold it in place and even an AA (but it wouldn't run). It just loses time dramatically over a day. Any other ideas?
     
  30. Gianluca

    Gianluca Registered User

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    how much swings per minut in to your clock ? just for comparison.......
     
  31. Tinker Dwight

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    Hi Chris
    I guess one need to ask, how slow is it?
    Is it always the same amount or is it changing?
    As I recall, the system was normally over balanced,
    such that the swinging weight on the back of the clock
    would case it to swing back and forth the other way.
    It might be that the adjustment bob has been moved too
    far down, causing it to go past the balance point.
    You might try bringing it up to the top of the adjustment
    and then carefully lowering it.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  32. Chris

    Chris Registered User
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    It's still slow. All I can figure is that it's not pivoting fast enough. I ran the pendulum all the way up again to start over. I just bought two off of Ebay, because I'm now obsessed with them! The one that came in seems to rock more than this one, so I'll see what happens.
     
  33. Munday

    Munday New Member

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    I have 2 queen anne swingers bought in 1972 and updated to a quarts movement by the London Clock Company in 1981. Have been brilliant, but one has now stopped working. Where do I go to get it repaired?? I am so fond of these clocks, I dont want to go to just anyone!! Help anyone, please?? Munday
     
  34. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User

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    I wish i had two Queen Anne clocks with original movements. I sure would not switch them to quartz.
    Try a google search you might get lucky or someone here will know where they might be found. Did you by any chance keep the original movements.
     

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