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Schatz Model 49 with adjustable pallets?

Tinker Dwight

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

The second picture is adjusted to 2/3, not 1/3.
It is 1/3 from the lock surface, not 1/3 from the drop.
You need to move the exit pallet in.
This is why I wanted the pictures.
Dwight
 

Dave T

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

The second picture is adjusted to 2/3, not 1/3.
It is 1/3 from the lock surface, not 1/3 from the drop.
You need to move the exit pallet in.
This is why I wanted the pictures.
Dwight
Yep, you're right Tinker. Look at my previous post. Our responses aren't quite in order. The last set of pictures is for drop, (post 100), and now I need to fine tune that, or start adjusting pallets. What do you think?
 

Tinker Dwight

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

The pictures in #98 show the locks adjustment as being incorrectly
set.
The pictures in #100 show the correct drops.
Dwight
 

sjaffe

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

Photos in #100 look right on! Now just get the locks equal to the drops and you should be set. Specifically, when the exit pallet first locks, the distance between the escape wheel tooth tip and entrance pallet should equal the overlap of the exit pallet with the escape wheel tooth and conversely when the entrance pallet first locks, the distance between the escape wheel tooth tip and exit pallet should equal the overlap of the entrance pallet with the escape wheel tooth.
Stan

Edit: It looks like the exit lock needs to be slightly deeper.
 

Dave T

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

Okay guys, Thanks.
I'm happy with the drops this time around, now for adjusting the locks. Right now they're a little shallow, and when I get them close to what they should be I'll post some pictures.
 

Dave T

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

Okay, here's what the locks look like now. But, it takes almost two pendulum revolutions for the clock to run and ultimately stops!

Schatz entrance lock 2.jpg Schatz exit lock 2.jpg
 

Tinker Dwight

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

How about the pictures I asked for.
The tooth 1/3 from the lock onto the impulse with the
lever straight up. ( not tooth on the lock )
Dwight
 

Dave T

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

Here ya go. Thought I had the pictures centered, but it's a little to the left.

Schatz exit 2.jpg Schatz Entrance 2.jpg
 

Dave T

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

Just discovered this. I see one tooth definitely needs some work.

Schatz 49 escape teeth.jpg
 

shutterbug

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

I had noticed that in an earlier picture, but it's not terrible. Just pinch the teeth softly and pull straight away from the base with a smooth jawed needle nose. Keep the flat side straight and the rest will be fine.
 

Tinker Dwight

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

The entry is a little close to the lock but lets wait and see
how it runs when you get that tooth straight.
It just means a little more lock than the 1/3 would
create.
Tinker Dwight
 

Dave T

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

Here's the one I worked on and a few others while I had it out. I'll put it back together and see how it goes. I thought sure today would be the day!

Schatz 49 escape teeth 1.jpg
 

shutterbug

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

Still issues at 9:00 and 10:00 in the photo :)
 

John Hubby

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

Just discovered this. I see one tooth definitely needs some work.

283052.jpg
Dave, actually more than half of the teeth need straightening from what I see when your photo is magnified about 6X. The front face of each tooth should be dead straight from the root to the tip, and then each tooth should be exactly equidistant from the next in both directions at the tips . Shutt's suggested method of straightening is good, after getting every tooth straight then check the tip to tip measure. Remember that closing the space between a tooth and the one in front of it will open the space to the following tooth, so it takes a gentle touch and a LOT of patience to get them all set.
 

Dave T

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

Dave, actually more than half of the teeth need straightening from what I see when your photo is magnified about 6X. The front face of each tooth should be dead straight from the root to the tip, and then each tooth should be exactly equidistant from the next in both directions at the tips . Shutt's suggested method of straightening is good, after getting every tooth straight then check the tip to tip measure. Remember that closing the space between a tooth and the one in front of it will open the space to the following tooth, so it takes a gentle touch and a LOT of patience to get them all set.
Thanks John, I did try to straighten all of them, but this is my first attempt at this sort of thing, and I definitely need a lot of practice.
My picture in post 112 is after my attempt. I'm not happy with it actually, but thought I might be able to get this clock to run with it. Then, I plan to tear it down again, re-clean and oil. And give this wheel some proper attention.
 

shutterbug

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

Another note, it's best to work on the EW while it's out of the movement.
 

Dave T

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

Since the last time I adjusted drops, all I've done is try to get pallets at proper lock depth, and the clock will not run!
Here's what the locks look like right now. I'm at the end of what to do next!!

Schatz exit 3.jpg Schatz entrance 3.jpg
 

Tinker Dwight

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

You are continuing to not adjust them as I said.
The escapement tooth should be on the impulse face with the lever
arm in identical position, straight up.
Your pictures show the levers in varied positions and the teeth on
the lock surface, not on the impulse.
Tinker Dwight
 

Dave T

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

You are continuing to not adjust them as I said.
The escapement tooth should be on the impulse face with the lever
arm in identical position, straight up.
Your pictures show the levers in varied positions and the teeth on
the lock surface, not on the impulse.
Tinker Dwight
If I am it's certainly not my intent. But this post got me thinking about it. Should all pallet adjustments now be with the anchor lever in the straight up position? And if so, should I be looking for less tooth on the impulse surface?
I imagine you're about as aggravated with all of this as I am by now!
 

Tinker Dwight

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

Both measurements need to be done with the tooth on the impulse
face. One with the entry pallet and one with the exit pallet.
The lever arm must be at exactly the same place or the positioning
is useless, after escaping to get the tooth on the other
pallet.
This is a fine adjustment. A tiny difference in the lever position
makes all the difference.
Is it possible to take two pictures. Each with the tooth on one
of the two impulse faces. I don't think anyone can tell much from
the pictures you show with the teeth on the locks and the levers
at random positions.
After making the adjustment, please post a picture showing that you made
the actual adjustment. I have yet to see a correct picture!
Then when you try to run it, you need to be specific about why it is not
running. The fact that it isn't running tells me nothing about what to do next.
Is it over locking, is it landing on an impulse?
Did you attempt to adjust the fork?
Tinker Dwight
 

Dave T

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

All right, I hear you. The last two pictures I posted were with the clock running, (with my help) and the pictures represented where the pallet was landing on the tooth. Evidently these pictures aren't helping describe the problem.

My post 108 was intended to show the entrance and exit tooth on the impulse face with the anchor lever straight up, after adjustment. My mark is shown but it is not exactly where I wanted it. The exact position is on the right side edge of the mark. I'm trying to show you pictures of both entrance and exit pallets with the anchor lever straight up on my mark. But my camera was not exactly centered on it. If this isn't what you wanted I'll try to show some better pictures. I'm sure I know what you want, but evidently I'm not doing a very good job of showing you.

I have tried raising and lowering the fork. That adjustment seems to make no difference. The clock will run if I give it momentum, until it runs out of momentum. The escape wheel is advancing as it should, and the action to me, looks like my well running Schatz sitting beside it, with nearly 360° rotation. It also looks like the anchor lever is swinging left to right about 4° each way. Wish I could post a video.
But this clock eventually stops. The teeth won't unlock on one revolution, it takes nearly two.

I'll try to get you some good pictures of where it is now and hopefully you can tell me what it needs. I might take the anchor out again, and change the tension on the pallet screws so it will be a little easier to make fine adjustments to be able to know how much I've changed it. Right now it's pretty much hit and miss. Maybe that's why I'm not getting closer. This clock has run one time since we started, but it only had about 180° rotation, and I'm not happy with that. I will get there if it kills me.
 
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Tinker Dwight

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

The left pallet is too close to the lock. The right one looks about right.
on #108.
The teeth were in really bad shape. I'm not surprised it was
doing poorly.
Have you tried adjusting the fork?
If you can't get it to flutter at a lower position, you can lower
the adjustment closer to center of the impulse pallets.
If it is over locking, moving the tooth point closer to the edge
of the impulse face will make it lock more.
If you have both teeth right at center, no position of the fork
will work as it will always land on the impulse face.
When looking at the pictures of lock. Where the pictures at the instance
of drop or the ends of the swings?
Tinker Dwight
 

Dave T

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

The left pallet is too close to the lock. The right one looks about right.
on #108.
The teeth were in really bad shape. I'm not surprised it was
doing poorly.
Have you tried adjusting the fork?
If you can't get it to flutter at a lower position, you can lower
the adjustment closer to center of the impulse pallets.
If it is over locking, moving the tooth point closer to the edge
of the impulse face will make it lock more.
If you have both teeth right at center, no position of the fork
will work as it will always land on the impulse face.
When looking at the pictures of lock. Where the pictures at the instance
of drop or the ends of the swings?
Tinker Dwight
Thanks Tinker, Good information. Gives me some things to consider. I have adjusted the fork up and down but have never seen it flutter. As I remember, most of my adjustments kept me moving the teeth closer to the edge of the impulse face, because I thought there was not enough lock, (compared to my well running clock).

The pictures were intended to show the instant of drop. In the future I will label the pictures accordingly.
 

sjaffe

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

Dave,
Sometimes if you keep running into a wall, it might be better to go around it. Here is another approach to consider. It is not a solution, but it may lead you to one. You have two clocks of the same model, one works, one does not. You have two escape wheels and two anchors. You have four possible combinations of these parts. Why not try them all and see which ones work and which do not? It may lead you to where your problem is. For example you have two clocks: A and B. A runs, B does not. If you try escape wheel B in A and it does not run, you can assume there is something wrong with your escape wheel and focus on that. The anchor is a little more difficult to make the A/B comparison because you have the eccentric adjustment that does not transfer, but you still may be able to glean some useful information.

...or you could just keep making pallet adjustments until your fingers become raw. :)

Stan
 

Dave T

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

I've considered that Stan, I'm sure the escape wheel has seen better days. I'm getting pretty good at slipping out the escape and anchor now without upsetting the rest of the train. So far, that's all I'm good at!!
 

Dave T

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

I've considered that Stan, I'm sure the escape wheel has seen better days. I'm getting pretty good at slipping out the escape and anchor now without upsetting the rest of the train. So far, that's all I'm good at!!
I've been studying this clock most of the morning. (No church today, we're still recovering from hurricane Matthew). It wants to run, but still takes well more than one turn of the pendulum to continue. (Not sure I understand why that is?) The swing of the anchor lever looks about right. I've raised the fork to near the very top of the anchor lever, but that doesn't seem to help. I am fairly comfortable with my locks and drops now, (It nearly mirrors my well running Schatz 49).
But watching this clock with a loupe through each tooth on the escape wheel, I think I have at least one tooth where the exit pallet is catching on the (curved) backside of the tooth. Maybe this drag is causing the eventual slowdown?
I'll leave my adjustments as is, and remove the wheel, work on it, or try another as you suggest. I'd like to keep all the original parts with the clock to minimize where the error is however.
 

Dave T

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

Dave, actually more than half of the teeth need straightening from what I see when your photo is magnified about 6X. The front face of each tooth should be dead straight from the root to the tip, and then each tooth should be exactly equidistant from the next in both directions at the tips . Shutt's suggested method of straightening is good, after getting every tooth straight then check the tip to tip measure. Remember that closing the space between a tooth and the one in front of it will open the space to the following tooth, so it takes a gentle touch and a LOT of patience to get them all set.
Worked on the wheel. How's this look?
Schatz escape 5.jpg Schatz escape 4.jpg
 

Dave T

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

I had noticed that in an earlier picture, but it's not terrible. Just pinch the teeth softly and pull straight away from the base with a smooth jawed needle nose. Keep the flat side straight and the rest will be fine.
This is what I tried to do, but I didn't measure the distance between teeth.
 

shutterbug

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

Everything looks pretty good except the tooth at 11:00 in the pic :)
 

Dave T

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

This is what I tried to do, but I didn't measure the distance between teeth.
Yep, I see that now.. it's got a little curl on the tip. You've got a good eye!
 

John Hubby

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

The tooth at 1:00 also has a tiny curl back. if you get both the 11:00 and 1:00 teeth straight you should be good. Distances look pretty good in the photo, when you get it in the clock you will be able to see different drops if any of them are out of line.
 

Dave T

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

The tooth at 1:00 also has a tiny curl back. if you get both the 11:00 and 1:00 teeth straight you should be good. Distances look pretty good in the photo, when you get it in the clock you will be able to see different drops if any of them are out of line.
Thanks John, Got it out of the clock and here's how it looks now.
Schatz escape 6.jpg
 

Dave T

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

Finally figured out how to upload a video. It's not great, but might help you all see what I see, (skip to about the middle one third of it. The clock wants to run, but just won't continue to. I attempted to clean up the escape wheel thinking that might be enough to stop it, but the drops look consistent to me. It does appear to me that the exit pallet is mighty close to the backside of the escaping tooth, but I have never seen it catch. It takes a little more than a full revolution of the pendulum to release.
Let's try the video and see if it's at all helpful.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=QbbmvYbbrg0[/video]
 

John Hubby

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

Dave, the "final" result of your scape wheel straightening looks good. With regard to releasing each pallet for the clock to run, if it is taking a full revolution of the pendulum to lock and unlock in each direction, you have the suspension fork set much too high. It should not take more than about 1/3 to 1/2 turn to lock and unlock both pallets. Lower the fork until the escapement flutters by itself, then raise it a couple of mm to stop the fluttering and check how far you have to turn the pendulum to lock and unlock in both directions. If it's 1/2 turn or less the clock should run once it is in beat.
 

Dave T

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

Dave, the "final" result of your scape wheel straightening looks good. With regard to releasing each pallet for the clock to run, if it is taking a full revolution of the pendulum to lock and unlock in each direction, you have the suspension fork set much too high. It should not take more than about 1/3 to 1/2 turn to lock and unlock both pallets. Lower the fork until the escapement flutters by itself, then raise it a couple of mm to stop the fluttering and check how far you have to turn the pendulum to lock and unlock in both directions. If it's 1/2 turn or less the clock should run once it is in beat.
Thanks John, Glad to know I finally got one thing right! (escape wheel) :)
I've moved the fork up, down and in-between. I've had the fork clear down to where it almost drags on the frame. And I never get any flutter either. Keep trying to figure out why that is? But with this info, I'll take a second look at it with this specificly in mind.
 

Dave T

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

Think I need to clarify "one revolution". It takes nearly one full revolution for one complete cycle. Almost half for the entrance pallet and almost a half for the exit pallet, (to escape the teeth). So, that's almost half for each side.
Watching it carefully, I do think I see the exit pallet scraping or almost scraping the back side of the tooth on escape. Maybe the distance between the teeth is not right yet? Or is a pallet too low?
 

KurtinSA

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

RE: the video. Sometimes the tooth on the entrance pallet (the left one) rapidly moves across the impulse face of the pallet, almost like it isn't providing any impulse at all. The exit pallet seems to slide across more normally to my eye. What could be causing that? I wonder if the teeth aren't the same height. If there isn't much of an impulse on the entrance side, you're missing some of the power.

Kurt
 

Tinker Dwight

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

Your locks look excessive. The beat is not balanced.
You did not set the 1/3 properly like I've tried to get you to
do. You still have not posted a picture of the setting 1/3 like
I have continued to ask for. PLEASE post a picture of your setting
the 1/3 so you can make some progress.
Please make it clear enough that I can see both the lever position
and the escapement tooth position for both entrance and exit.
You could not have that much lock if you'd done it, right.
Dwight
 

Dave T

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

Your locks look excessive. The beat is not balanced.
You did not set the 1/3 properly like I've tried to get you to
do. You still have not posted a picture of the setting 1/3 like
I have continued to ask for. PLEASE post a picture of your setting
the 1/3 so you can make some progress.
Please make it clear enough that I can see both the lever position
and the escapement tooth position for both entrance and exit.
You could not have that much lock if you'd done it, right.
Dwight
Here's another attempt. Hope this is what you want. I've tried this before, but maybe these are better pictures. I started at 1/3 and here's where it is as we speak. (These pictures are with the fork clear down. I was trying to get it to flutter.)

Schatz entrance 5.jpg Schatz exit 5.jpg
 

Tinker Dwight

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

Here's another attempt. Hope this is what you want. I've tried this before, but maybe these are better pictures. I started at 1/3 and here's where it is as we speak. (These pictures are with the fork clear down. I was trying to get it to flutter.)

283368.jpg 283369.jpg
The entrance is a little close to the lock but that should be able to get it to flutter.
Have you set the beat? At what amount of rotation does it drop.
To set the beat, do it by rotating until it drops and release it.
Do this from both directions. It should swing to the other side and
also release when in beat.
Do a video so we can see what is happening. Don't start it too much
beyond the drop. We can't tell much if it is way over swinging.
Tinker Dwight
 

Dave T

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

Tried to get a video posted today, but having "technical issues" (Maybe I need to join a forum on posting videos! :chuckling:)
But I did set the beat in the manner you outlined. ( I usually do this with the clock running by adjusting the overswing to be equal.)
So, now the drops occur right at 90° from dead still center, on both entrance and exit. I can't measure overswing yet because the clock won't continue to run. With the fork in the lowered position as in the last photos there is still no flutter.

I'll try to get the video posted.
 
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sjaffe

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

Dave,
If you are getting the drops at +/- 90 degrees and had 270 degrees of rotation, you would have (270 - 2 * 90) / 2 = 45 degrees of overswing in each direction, which should be fine.
Stan
 

shutterbug

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

Post your video on Youtube and link here.
 

Dave T

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

Finally got the video published. If I keep it running this is the way it looks. But, it eventually slows down to a stop. As I said, the drops occur at + and - 90°. But can't measure overswing?

[video]https://youtu.be/_I-rCQXtj94[/video]
 
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KurtinSA

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

Looks like you don't have enough of a gap between the fork tines and the anchor pin. When the clock is at a dead stop, can you slip a piece of paper between the tines and the pin? This simple thing can easily stop a clock.

Kurt
 

shutterbug

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

Also, there is no over swing. Lower the fork some.
 

KurtinSA

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

shut - I thought the same thing. Looked like there was over swing at the beginning but by the end of the clip, there was no over swing.

Kurt
 

Tinker Dwight

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Re: Schatz Model 49 with adjustable palets?

If Kurt's post doesn't help, it looks like a lack of power.
It does look like the fork is tight.
The beat is real close and there seems to be minimal lock.
I'd say the escapement is doing all it can to make it work.
Tinker Dwight
 

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