Schatz Midget pin pallet

Discussion in '400-Day & Atmos' started by Wayne A, Oct 20, 2019.

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  1. Wayne A

    Wayne A Registered User

    Sep 24, 2019
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    I like miniature 400day clocks primarly but found this Schatz midget I really liked. Looks like its plate 1013B, a pin pallet unit, only its missing the pins as in there not there at all, not broken but gone! Looking at the sockets it appears they may be tapered because the rear of the socket is much smaller. Maybe the result of a past repair attempt? Or perhaps that rear hole was an access just to press them out? Really want to get this clock running but have no idea how to source the pins.

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  2. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    The pins will be pivot wire, not tapered. They should be a tight press in fit to the holes you have, and long enough to engage the wheel. That will give you a starting point, and see how it runs.
    Alternately, you could try sourcing a donor movement.
     
  3. Wayne A

    Wayne A Registered User

    Sep 24, 2019
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    Was hoping someone knew the proper size wire for it in case the holes were reamed. I'll get an a wire assortment and see what fits. I'd estimate the sockets are .02**. Would prefer to repair it because that's just one of the attractions to this hobby, repairing machines. Failing a repair looking for a replacement would be the next choice.
     
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  4. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    I used music wire for the pins.as my clock had flattened grooves into the pins.
    my memory is that I used .020 from k&s.

    they didn't really press in? more like pressing a sewing needle into a 4 layer seam.
    think hand pressed, the hole was tapered and I didn't trust it,
    so I used red loc-tite ( it says high strength) to be sure the pins stayed.

    last time I saw the clock, it was swinging...
     
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  5. Wayne A

    Wayne A Registered User

    Sep 24, 2019
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    Victor, it looks like someone had attempted a repair on mine at one time since both pin's are missing and under magnification I noticed traces of red loctite on the pivot shaft by the anchor. Loctite threadlocker in open air never hardens but turns very thick. Going to setup the ultrasonic cleaner tomorrow for another clock and I'll clean this part then check the sockets size with number drill shaft.
     
  6. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    #6 etmb61, Oct 21, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2019
    The pallet pins on my JUM/7 measure 0.25mm or 0.010". Hobby Lobby sells music wire that small in an assortment for about $8. I can't say how good it would work.

    Eric
     
  7. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    What about a pack of needles?

    Kurt
     
  8. Wayne A

    Wayne A Registered User

    Sep 24, 2019
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    Humm, the wife has allot of needles.
     
  9. Wayne A

    Wayne A Registered User

    Sep 24, 2019
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    Thanks, thats a place to start fit testing and hobby lobby is very close. Just tried a .022 drill and its to big.
     
  10. Wayne A

    Wayne A Registered User

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  11. Harry Hopkins

    Harry Hopkins Registered User
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    Wayne, I don't have a miniature Schatz to measure the pins but I have a miniature Kundo that is a pin pallet escapement. The pins on it measure .012". For more info and reading see this thread.
     
  12. Wayne A

    Wayne A Registered User

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    Smallest needle or piano wire I could find in town was .15 which is still too large. Ran the part though the ultrasonic today and its always impressive how well it can clean. Can clearly see the sockets are rather odd looking, the entrance is much wider than the rear. Looks reamed out but there identical so probably not reamed. Ordered a smaller assortment of beading needles that go down to .010.

    20191022_173544.jpg
     
  13. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    #13 KurtinSA, Oct 22, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
    I have an old beat up pin pallet anchor. The pins seem to vary in size. One is 0.0012" while the other is 0.0015". Plus, the pins protrude out the back side...seems to be soldered, maybe glued, in place. I can't say if this is stock from the factory...don't know what clock it might have come from. But the anchor part is similar to your picture. This thing is pretty rough.

    Kurt
     
  14. whatgoesaround

    whatgoesaround Registered User

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    I have used polished guitar stings for small sizes. ​
     
  15. Wayne A

    Wayne A Registered User

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    There is so little material at the right pin size I'm thinking I may have to solder the pins in as well.
     
  16. Wayne A

    Wayne A Registered User

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    Harry, that might be close to the Schatz's. That smaller throat section must be .01 -.012.
     
  17. tracerjack

    tracerjack Registered User
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    John Hubby goes over pin pallets replacement in post #4 of this discussion -Bent pallet pin JUM/7. Tried to link it, but it didn’t work. I have a midget Schatz. Will try to measure pallets and post.
     
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  18. Wayne A

    Wayne A Registered User

    Sep 24, 2019
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    Thanks Tracerjack, Now that looks helpful!
    Kinda makes sense why the holes are tapered, your supposed to shove the needle into there point first. Now which size needle, try a few I guess.

    Bent pallet pin JUM/7
     
  19. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    The pallet size is pretty critical to good function. Needles aren't a bad idea. They are already polished, and hardened. Hopefully you'll get the size you need from tracerjack.
     
  20. tracerjack

    tracerjack Registered User
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    Spoke too soon. I have a Schatz midget missing one pin pallet that I haven’t got around to yet. I get it down, and discover I have already removed the verge and put it - somewhere. It’s got to be in a small box and most likely will turn up when I am looking for something else. Very sorry to have gotten your hopes up. Will keep looking, but don’t hold your breath. Bugging the heck out of me now that I know I can’t find it.
     
  21. Wayne A

    Wayne A Registered User

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    Just to try an determine the size of the pallet socket I sanded down a .015 piano wire to .10 and it seems to fit. The wire was very brittle and I'm not planning on using it. Do have a couple sizes of beading needles on the way which are .010 and .012 so hopefully they work. Would like to see a picture of a verge that's stock, still think its shape of the sockets on mine is odd.
     
  22. tracerjack

    tracerjack Registered User
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    I have apart a Kern midget right now. The pin pallets are .28mm or .011 decimal inch. Different maker, I realize, but seems to be the size you think goes in the Schatz. Still cleaning it, so if you want measurements of the EW and tooth count to see if they match up with the Schatz, let me know.
     
  23. D.th.munroe

    D.th.munroe Registered User

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    I have a few of those, I just took the pallet out of one, the pins are just under .010" the divots on the front side of the pallet are on this one as well, heres a couple pictures and the clock they're from.
    Dan

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  24. Wayne A

    Wayne A Registered User

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    Thanks Dan! That confirms my clock is not in an altered state. I had ordered some .010 (#15) beading needles off Amazilla but did not notice there coming from England, its not a popular size I guess. Anyway they should be here in another week.
    Wayne
     
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  25. Wayne A

    Wayne A Registered User

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    Finally received the .01" beading needles I had ordered and there very nice and springy much less brittle than the piano wire I had sanded down. First brand of needles claimed to be size 15 but were not, ended up with John James needles which were right at .01 as advertised. Still had so sand down the tips a bit before inserting into the anchor that just must be just under .01".

    Clock is running well and keeping time! Not allot of rotation though, 230deg but has nearly 30deg of over swing. Seems like I read these units don't have allot of rotation. Thanks everyone who helped me figure out what size pin's I needed, really happy to see this little clock running.

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  26. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Nice! And you got the pendulum painted as well! Do you have any pictures of the needles installed on the anchor?

    Kurt
     
  27. Wayne A

    Wayne A Registered User

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    Not very good pictures, was hurrying along to see it run and did not take a picture out of the clock. I heated the anchor while pushing in the needles, kinda smoked one a bit but its still springy so left it. There a bit longer than they needed to be but its not hitting anything. The pins are so tiny I have been holding the escape wheel with a finger tip when ever I adjust the time just to keep that load off them.

    Oh the pendulum was already painted when I received the clock. Just waxed it up is all.

    20191107_112413.jpg
     
  28. tracerjack

    tracerjack Registered User
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    Very nice. I also like the painted pendulum. Like you, I was impressed by the quality of the John James needles that I ordered. You have inspired me to find my misplaced verge and fix it.
     
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  29. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    You can increase the total swing by raising the fork a little. But go slow because that also decreases over swing. I'm guessing you could go 2mm with no issues.
     
  30. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    We hear this a lot that raising the fork increases rotation at the expense of over swing...and vice versa. I certainly understand why this happens. Is there any standard for how much the rotation increases versus the reduction in over swing? Is it one degree for one degree? Is there any direct relationship or are there too many variables to really say what the effect is going to be?

    Kurt
     
  31. Wayne A

    Wayne A Registered User

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    Think I'm at 3.6mm at the moment and zero flutter detected, in fact I don't think it fluttered even with me taking the pendulum on and off. With the 12 beat pendulum its busy moving around even with the reduced rotation, so its still nice to watch. I set the locks like Rabushaka's book says right below the edge but was tempted to move it down hoping for a harder push. Really I'm happy with how its running and that spring loaded pendulum design is so easy to set to proper time with beat counter due to little to no dead band.
     
  32. Wayne A

    Wayne A Registered User

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    Think some geometry may be in play here that affects the "gain". Distance between torsion spring and pin, height of fork above center of anchor pivot, rotation deg to drops, and probably some spring rate as well. Interesting it is.
     
  33. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    I imagine there is some mathematical equation involved, but I just go by what I see. I prefer a lot of rotation and just enough over swing to keep it going :)
     
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  34. Wayne A

    Wayne A Registered User

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    I like allot of movement as well. Clock has been running a few days and rotation had crept up to 240deg over time. Today I moved the fork up from 3.6mm to 3mm. Also tweaked the locks a tiny bit while I was at it. Shotgunning so may changes makes it hard to know what had the most affect but the beat rate shifted faster by a good bit from these changes. After getting it regulated fairly closely by phone beat timer app its now turning 295deg,. Thats a big change.
     

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