Schatz Mariner 1975

GJP@4

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Oct 2, 2012
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Hi,

I am very much a beginner but am eager to learn more.
So far my major achievement is managing to dismantle and timepiece movement (Empire) and replaced the mainspring - having invested in an Ollie Baker mainspring winder and let down set.
Once it was re-assembled it worked first time and is keeping good time

To move on to this Schatz clock.

Was fully serviced by a local horologist in Jan 2018 and we are a non-smoking household.
This clock can run for up to 6 or 7 hours at a time but then will stop - it seems it is encountering resistance as it sets up the rack or post strike (most stoppages have been when minute hand is either at 25 mins - 27 minutes past the hour or 3-4 minutes past the half hour.
I have known it run for 12 hours then stop.

Both hands are free moving and not binding and clock is fully wound.

Also the strike does not always complete the correct number (i.e. stops short) but if I move the hand slowly to the next trigger point it usually corrects. For 6 hours today it ran perfectly and struck the correct bells then at 17:27 it stopped. Moved minute hand to the half hour, it struck 3 bells and is still going but I know it will stop!!

Could anyone point me in the direction of possible causes please - I cannot afford to pay £280 again after only 3 years!

Best regards
 

JimmyOz

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Hi GPL@4,
If it is stopping we would be guessing without photos? It is a simple enough to get these movements out, open the bezel take the hands off, you will see 4 screws, take them out and the bezel will come off, take the dial off, you will see a plate holding the movement to the case, take the screws at 3 and 9 out and the whole thing should come out of the case, take the 4 screws out holding the plate and movement together.

Take some photos and post them here.
 

GJP@4

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Oct 2, 2012
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Hi GPL@4,
If it is stopping we would be guessing without photos? It is a simple enough to get these movements out, open the bezel take the hands off, you will see 4 screws, take them out and the bezel will come off, take the dial off, you will see a plate holding the movement to the case, take the screws at 3 and 9 out and the whole thing should come out of the case, take the 4 screws out holding the plate and movement together.

Take some photos and post them here.
Jimmy Oz
Are these sufficient?

I did not mention before that when it has stopped the slightest of pressure on the minute hand sets it going again.

It ran from 22 :50 until 05:25 this morning
IMG_3912.jpeg IMG_3914.jpeg IMG_3915.jpeg IMG_3916.jpeg IMG_3917.jpeg
 

shutterbug

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It looks like it might have what's called a passing strike. That means the rack is not used for the half hour strike. If you can verify that, it might be something like a sticky hammer. That might also explain the partial strikes at the hour. Manipulate the strike hammer by hand, and see if there's too much resistance there. Basically just a first step in the troubleshooting process ;)
 

svenedin

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Looks in good condition and clean which bodes well for your troubleshooting.......
 
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wow

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It looks like it might have what's called a passing strike. That means the rack is not used for the half hour strike. If you can verify that, it might be something like a sticky hammer. That might also explain the partial strikes at the hour. Manipulate the strike hammer by hand, and see if there's too much resistance there. Basically just a first step in the troubleshooting process ;)
Shutt, would a ships bell clock have a passing strike? I’m thinking it’s stopping due to some bind in the warn or in the bell strike set-up. 25 after the hour usually is about when the warn begins. In post #1, he said it stopped at 3 after the hour? That wouldn’t be warn.:???:?
 

GJP@4

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Oct 2, 2012
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It looks like it might have what's called a passing strike. That means the rack is not used for the half hour strike. If you can verify that, it might be something like a sticky hammer. That might also explain the partial strikes at the hour. Manipulate the strike hammer by hand, and see if there's too much resistance there. Basically just a first step in the troubleshooting process ;)
Shutt, Not a passing strike (which I believe is once on the hour). This strikes the "eight bells of the watch" e.g.
1 @ 08:30, 2 at 9:00, 3 @ 9:30, 4 @ 10:00, 5 @ 10:30, 6 @ 11:00, 7 @ 11:30 then 8 @ 12:00 and so on each 4 hour cycle.

Just got home and it is still running since 10 am this morning.
The strike issue I mentioned is that when it has stopped running and I move minute hand to the next strike position it some times doesn't strike the number i should. If I trigger it to strike by moving the lever at the bottom (about 10:30 on the 2nd photo) it sometimes corrects but some times doesn't until I move the minute hand to the next or some time 2 or 3 strike positions - if that makes sense.

Hammer seems very free but I have a newer version of this clock "39" according to another website and it strikes quicker as in X X ( a double strike) - whereas the older one mostly seems more like two single strikes. Hope that makes sense.
 
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GJP@4

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Oct 2, 2012
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Shutt, would a ships bell clock have a passing strike? I’m thinking it’s stopping due to some bind in the warn or in the bell strike set-up. 25 after the hour usually is about when the warn begins. In post #1, he said it stopped at 3 after the hour? That wouldn’t be warn.:???:?
Wow, it mostly stops 3-4 mins before the half hour or occasionally the hour .
However, it has stopped, albeit less often, after the half hour or hour.

At 15:27 just heard a clunk and turned round to see the rack dropping - about 5 secs after the clunk I heard. It kept going and at 15:30 struck 7 bells.
 
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wow

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Wow, it mostly stops 3-4 mins before the half hour or occasionally the hour .
However, it has stopped, albeit less often, after the half hour or hour.

At 15:27 just heard a clunk and turned round to see the rack dropping - about 5 secs after the clunk I heard. It kept going and at 15:30 struck 7 bells.
Sounds good. Maybe you’ve got it.
 

shutterbug

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There is definitely something going on with it. You shouldn't hear any clunks other than the rack actually falling onto the snail. If you move the hands around manually, do you feel any binding? You might have a warning pin stopping in the bottom position and bumping the raising lever. It will be something strange like that when you locate it.
 

GJP@4

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Oct 2, 2012
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There is definitely something going on with it. You shouldn't hear any clunks other than the rack actually falling onto the snail. If you move the hands around manually, do you feel any binding? You might have a warning pin stopping in the bottom position and bumping the raising lever. It will be something strange like that when you locate it.
The clock was standing in a bookcase so I suppose the clunk was amplified by the shelf it was on. It hasn't made a clunk since I took it out of the case and propped it up (see picture five. The hands move freely and as I said it can run for for 6-9+ hours before it stops. I started it again this morning at 11:00 (it has stopped before 00:00) and it is still gong at 14:55 without clunks!

The hammer did seem locked up this morning but it cleared when I rotated the minute hand - althoughit missed s ticking on 4 occasions i.e. 00:00, 0030, 01:30 and 02:00.
 

Uhralt

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In your first two pictures it seems that the rack may not always be able to fall freely at warning. The pin on the gathering pallet, that moves the rack, should be as far away as possible from the rack teeth at warning. In the pictures it looks like it barely clears the teeth. Maybe it is just the pictures, but it is possible that the pallet has moved on its arbor a bit over time. Maybe it wasn't pressed on securely.

If what I believe to see is true, try to move the pallet counter clockwise for more clearance. to do so, hold the abrbor with needle nose pliers and try to move the pallet.

Uhralt
 

D.th.munroe

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Just looking at the pictures I can see the mainspring barrels look loose and are worn on the teeth in a way that suggests the barrels are floppy on their arbors which can cause a clunk or two. I would check that as well.
Dan
 

JimmyOz

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Can you take the black plate off and get a few close up photos of the front and back plates.

I have just finished fixing one of these clocks (it has 2 hammers) and when I got it it did the same as your clock, that is it would work most of the time and then just stop. Yours was repaired about 3 years ago and I think that not all the pivots were rebushed and the missed pivots may have worn to a stage where one or two are not reliable. I don't know your skill level when repairing clocks and if you have a letdown tool and having a platform escapement letting down the springs with a key is a no-no. Try rocking the wheels back and forth with your finger and look at the next pivot hole to see if you can see any movement in the pivot hole as I think there maybe movement in the pivot hole somewhere in the time train (hense, stopping at odd time before and after strike), just a small amount at the top end is enough to rob power from a platform escapement and stop the clock.

Uhralt, the gathering pallet has to be close for it to work as I found out setting the movement up so I would not get the OP to start moving it just yet.
 

JimmyOz

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Just looking at the pictures I can see the mainspring barrels look loose and are worn on the teeth in a way that suggests the barrels are floppy on their arbors which can cause a clunk or two. I would check that as well.
The attached photo is of the one I just repaired, every one of the pivots needed done, however this movement had not seen work done to it for a long time.

Shipbell1.jpg Shipbell2.jpg
 

GJP@4

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Oct 2, 2012
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In your first two pictures it seems that the rack may not always be able to fall freely at warning. The pin on the gathering pallet, that moves the rack, should be as far away as possible from the rack teeth at warning. In the pictures it looks like it barely clears the teeth. Maybe it is just the pictures, but it is possible that the pallet has moved on its arbor a bit over time. Maybe it wasn't pressed on securely.

If what I believe to see is true, try to move the pallet counter clockwise for more clearance. to do so, hold the abrbor with needle nose pliers and try to move the pallet.

Uhralt
I would say the that the pin is 3 x it's diam from the peaks of the rack teeth normally and slightly more when in warn (27 mins past the hour). Thanks for the comment but I assume this means I do not need to turn the pallet CC?
 

GJP@4

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Oct 2, 2012
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Can you take the black plate off and get a few close up photos of the front and back plates.

I have just finished fixing one of these clocks (it has 2 hammers) and when I got it it did the same as your clock, that is it would work most of the time and then just stop. Yours was repaired about 3 years ago and I think that not all the pivots were rebushed and the missed pivots may have worn to a stage where one or two are not reliable. I don't know your skill level when repairing clocks and if you have a letdown tool and having a platform escapement letting down the springs with a key is a no-no. Try rocking the wheels back and forth with your finger and look at the next pivot hole to see if you can see any movement in the pivot hole as I think there maybe movement in the pivot hole somewhere in the time train (hense, stopping at odd time before and after strike), just a small amount at the top end is enough to rob power from a platform escapement and stop the clock.

Uhralt, the gathering pallet has to be close for it to work as I found out setting the movement up so I would not get the OP to start moving it just yet.
Not skilled at all really! Not sure I am confident yet to take off the back plate! No movement in wheels that I can feel.

The clock has now been running since 17:00 on the 27/3 so 18½ plus without stopping so I haven't yet changed the time (for DST). Will leave to see what happens before attempting anything else. I appreciate I have to attempt those more difficult task if I want to progress but it is not a cheap clock and would hate to screw it up. I don't know how to re-bush so probably a step too far at this time.
Maybe a stupid question but does the amount of torsion left in the spring make a difference? Just remember a carriage clock I have is a bit temperamental if you fully wind it i.e. half a turn less than max and it is fine.
 

shutterbug

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When springs get dirty and the lubrication dries out, the leaves can stick together when fully wound. In the old days they called this "over wound". The reality though is "overdue for service". I think that's the real issue with both of your clocks.
 

GJP@4

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Oct 2, 2012
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When springs get dirty and the lubrication dries out, the leaves can stick together when fully wound. In the old days they called this "over wound". The reality though is "overdue for service". I think that's the real issue with both of your clocks.
How often do you think they should be serviced then - it was last done in Jan 2018 by a BHI qualified horologist.
 

Uhralt

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I would say the that the pin is 3 x it's diam from the peaks of the rack teeth normally and slightly more when in warn (27 mins past the hour). Thanks for the comment but I assume this means I do not need to turn the pallet CC?
If that is the case you do not need to move the pallet. Sometimes it is hard to see from the pictures.

Uhralt
 

Uhralt

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How often do you think they should be serviced then - it was last done in Jan 2018 by a BHI qualified horologist.
The springs should still be good after three years. How do the springs wind? Is it smooth or is there some slapping or a grinding noise? If smooth and no noises, they are probably ok. On the other hand, it is easy to check because you can remove the spring barrels without taking the movement plates apart.

Uhralt
 

shutterbug

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I think I'd ask the repairman if he would take another look at it. It should run for 20 years after a complete service.
 

JimmyOz

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In #16 I said the BLACK plate not the back plate?
You will not feel the movement in the wheels, the movement is in the 'pivot holes' and you see it when moving the wheels, it does not take much to stop a clock and since yours is going for hours and stopping it most likely will not be much, if you put a small drop of oil in the hole it will be easer to see any movement by the pins (pivots).
 
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GJP@4

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Oct 2, 2012
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In #16 I said the BLACK plate not the back plate?
You will not feel the movement in the wheels, the movement is in the 'pivot holes' and you see it when moving the wheels, it does not take much to stop a clock and since yours is going for hours and stopping it most likely will not be much, if you put a small drop of oil in the hole it will be easer to see any movement by the pins (pivots).
Apologies for misreading your comment!
Is this any good ? Tried adding oil but could not see movement.
Do you need closer shots and of the back plate?
Just watched the movement at 22:26 through 22:30 and we could see the balance wheel noticeably slowing down until the strike then it speeded up again.

Does that indicate what / where the resistance is coming from?
The clock had run for almost 48 hours and only stopped when I took the black plate off and it was leaning forward until I levelled it up on the staple box. Have a movement holder arriving Wednesday. Has run out of case since 18:20 29/3 until 23:00.
image.jpeg
 
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JimmyOz

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If you can't see any movement in the pivots then they may be okay, however I have on other suggestions as intermitting stopping at odd times still makes me think there is an issue there.
Maybe you just have to chat to the guy who fixed it and see what he says, at least you have it out of the case and he can give it a quick look over, he may do it for free?
 

shutterbug

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If it is slowing noticeably when approaching the strike, you have power transmission issues in the strike train. Likely some bushings that were not replaced or some polishing that was not done.
 

JimmyOz

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Is it just my bad eye sight or is there a bit of spring wire just below the hour hand wraped around the front plate in the #25 photo? I don't know what that does if it is, does not look original to the movement.
 

shutterbug

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Maybe just a scratch on the plate?
Check your lifting levers too. They should be able to move up and down without friction.
 

GJP@4

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If you can't see any movement in the pivots then they may be okay, however I have on other suggestions as intermitting stopping at odd times still makes me think there is an issue there.
Maybe you just have to chat to the guy who fixed it and see what he says, at least you have it out of the case and he can give it a quick look over, he may do it for free?
Unfortunately, he is not working at the moment and is overseas.
 

GJP@4

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Is it just my bad eye sight or is there a bit of spring wire just below the hour hand wraped around the front plate in the #25 photo? I don't know what that does if it is, does not look original to the movement.
Think it is a reflection
 

GJP@4

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Oct 2, 2012
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If it is slowing noticeably when approaching the strike, you have power transmission issues in the strike train. Likely some bushings that were not replaced or some polishing that was not done.
I have now turned off the strike using the small lever next to the dial at 3 (not the hammer lifter on the rear of case).

Clock seems to be going ok - will see how long it runs this time.
Would moving this lever effectively remove the "drag" that the strike train causes?
 

shutterbug

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Yes, it would probably suspend the strike in the warning position, basically freeing it from from interacting with the time side. That would seem to isolate your problem to the strike side, unless the time side is barely functioning. How much pendulum movement are you getting?
 

GJP@4

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Yes, it would probably suspend the strike in the warning position, basically freeing it from from interacting with the time side. That would seem to isolate your problem to the strike side, unless the time side is barely functioning. How much pendulum movement are you getting?
No pendulum at all!!

Now the strike is wrong so striking hours correctly but half hour out of sequence. appreciate hour hand can be moved but only 4 orientations for minute hand as square drive

Time Strikes
08:30 5 (should be 1) so 4 too many
09:00 2 correct
09:30 1 (should be 3) so 2 too many
10:00 4 correct
10:30 3 (should be 5) so 2 too few
11:00 6 correct
11:30 5 (should be 7) so two too few
12:00 8 correct

Time Strikes
12:30 5 (should be 1) so 4 too many
13:00 2 correct
13:30 1 (should be 3) so 2 too many
14:00 4 correct
14:30 3 (should be 5) so 2 too few
15:00 6 correct
15:30 5 (should be 7) so two too few
16:00 8 correct

Am I missing something obvious please?
 

JimmyOz

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Just watched the movement at 22:26 through 22:30 and we could see the balance wheel noticeably slowing down until the strike then it speeded up again.
The Platform escapement slowing down and the speeding back up and intermitting stopping is a sign it is in need of a bushing somewhere as it is losing power through the time train.

The odd 1/2 hour strikes, this clock has a complicated way of setting the 1/2 hour strike and is beyond your skill level at the moment. It has a cam on the hands arbour that allows the hook lever to catch the hammer lever just before the last rotation of the rack cam. It took me about 1.1/2 hours to work it out as this is the only one I have repaired.
However I have done a search on Goggle and found site with the same movement you have and the person that put it up also say's this is not easy and some repairers don't get it right.

The Schatz Royal Mariner Ship's Bell Clock
 

Gav

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Jimmy Oz
Following your advice (i.e. job being beyond my skill level at the moment) I took my clock to a highly recommended clock repairer locally.

I explained it had been "serviced" by another local repairer Jan '18 and he was very surprised. When I named who had done the last service the new

chap was rather disparaging, saying that he'd encountered the individual in question's work before and suggested (from the symptoms the Schatz was now exhibiting) that he found it hard to believe he had done any proper servicing at all!

When he had dismantled the clock he rang to inform me what he had found, and further suggested that, before he actually carried out the repair work, he really would like me to see the condition it was in.

I took one photo and a short video of what he found (see below) and thought you would be interested.
He also asked if it worked ok when I'd got it back in Jan '18 which I admitted it hadn't for very long but was loathe to take it back to the same chap.
He is now going to fully repair it and thinks it will cost 60% of what the other chap charged.

Really looking forward to getting it back.

IMG_3943.jpeg
 

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svenedin

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That’s disgraceful. The pivot crud there shows it was never disassembled and cleaned. Looks like the holes have been punched as well but that could have happened long ago. You could report this person to trading standards……
 

Gav

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Stephen,
That is exactly what the new chap said! Even I could see that was not exhibiting just 3 years wear from a full service.
But since it is 3 years ago I doubt the T/S people would bother that much.

For my education please - punching is to fix a bush that is not a tight enough fit in the newly bored-out hole?
If so how does it not risk displacing the centre of the new bush?

Also, how long once it has been re-bushed professionally, would it take to show that amount of wear?

Regards
 

JimmyOz

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The 1st repair guy did not do anything at all when looking at your video, say wipe the crud off the outside of the movement. When the new repairer fixes it, it should look like the 2nd photo in my post #16. He will have to do the same as I had too, that is, rebush almost all of your pivot holes.
As for the punching around the the bushings, they look like someone else that is not to great at repairing clocks has also had a go at your movement. The bush should fit tight and no need to punch anything. To get the wear in your video will take about 20 years of nothing being done to the movement, however now you know how to take it out of the case you could check it every 7 years or so and maybe give it a single small drop of oil on the pivots.
At least you have found someone that knows what he is about and will fix all the past issues.
 
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