Schatz JUM/7 clock

[Paul Tummers]

Hi to all of you!
I am fairly new to getting old clocks running angain and got caught by the efficiency of the 400 day clock movement, have a Kern and a nice Schatz put back into running, more luck than knowledge I guess.
I got a nice box, containing a small Schatz clock with a JUM/7 movement wich looked like it was soaked in oil several years before, took it apart as far as I trust myself to go, which means, the main spring has stayed in the drum, and not as far as I would like to because I cannot take the central axe of the minute gear wheel out of the front platine because the small gear wheel that connexts to the hour wheel gearing is in the way.
Whom of you can tell me how to get this wheel off the shaft, I really need to clean the hole and the surrounding of it of the platine.
Another question is about the tension of the hands; is there no spring washer mounted in this clock, the hands move very lightly and the small nut at the minute shaft looked only to keep the minute hand fixated on the axe.
Regards,
Paul Tummers.

 

[shutterbug]

Hi to all of you!
I am fairly new to getting old clocks running angain and got caught by the efficiency of the 400 day clock movement, have a Kern and a nice Schatz put back into running, more luck than knowledge I guess.
I got a nice box, containing a small Schatz clock with a JUM/7 movement wich looked like it was soaked in oil several years before, took it apart as far as I trust myself to go, which means, the main spring has stayed in the drum, and not as far as I would like to because I cannot take the central axe of the minute gear wheel out of the front platine because the small gear wheel that connexts to the hour wheel gearing is in the way.
Whom of you can tell me how to get this wheel off the shaft, I really need to clean the hole and the surrounding of it of the platine.
Another question is about the tension of the hands; is there no spring washer mounted in this clock, the hands move very lightly and the small nut at the minute shaft looked only to keep the minute hand fixated on the axe.
Regards,
Paul Tummers.

Welcome to the board, Paul. I think it will be safer to leave the center shaft where it is, at least at your experience level. You can clean around it with an oil cutter of your choice on a small brush, then move the shaft around, and in and out of the hole as much as you can until the dirt is completely removed. Follow with your standard bath and drying process.
You've lost the tension washer - it's really small. You can get them from the usual suppliers. I think it goes over the minute hand pivot on yours. The mainspring really should be removed and cleaned but you'd need a winder for that. If you are determined to leave it in, I'd leave it alone completely since trying to clean and oil it in place will not produce good results. It can be removed by hand, but you have to have the "knack" to prevent coning which is a real enemy to the slow moving 400 day clocks.
Keep us posted on your progress

 

[Paul Tummers]

Welcome to the board, Paul. I think it will be safer to leave the center shaft where it is, at least at your experience level. You can clean around it with an oil cutter of your choice on a small brush, then move the shaft around, and in and out of the hole as much as you can until the dirt is completely removed. Follow with your standard bath and drying process.
You've lost the tension washer - it's really small. You can get them from the usual suppliers. I think it goes over the minute hand pivot on yours. The mainspring really should be removed and cleaned but you'd need a winder for that. If you are determined to leave it in, I'd leave it alone completely since trying to clean and oil it in place will not produce good results. It can be removed by hand, but you have to have the "knack" to prevent coning which is a real enemy to the slow moving 400 day clocks.
Keep us posted on your progress

Thank you for your helpful information!
I do have an ultrasonic cleaner which I use to clean rifle cases, and I put the mainspring drum without the lid on for one hour in it- amazing how much rubbish was gathered in that drum.After totally drying it I oiled the spring coils with light clock oil and had gave the oil time to spread for one night
After cleaning all the bearing holes in the front and back plates with a pointed wooden stick and gasoline and having all the gearing wheels etc. totally cleaned, I put the movement together and mounted it on its bracket and mounted a .020 spring for a test run;
Without a suspension spring the anchor leg jumps nicely over and I tried the running of the movement before I built the anchor in by winding it 1/4 th turn, and it started nice and smooth, no strange noises or hesitations.
The spring is too thin because the clock stops after a couple of minutes and now it is waiting for the .022 Horolovar springs I ordered, I hope they will arrive next week or so.
The washer was not in the clock when I got it,definitely did not let it come away, so I will make one from a piece of alarm-clock spring I have luckily not thrown into the waist-bin.
I do not really know, which pivots do need to be oiled, because there is so very little moving in this kind of clocks,I only did oil the Drum pivots, clicker/spring, the anchor shaft pivots and the anchor-wheel pivots, for which I used pocket watch oil- the thinnest oil I have.
Every tip still is welcome!
Regards,
Paul Tummers.

 

[harold bain]

Paul, its pretty hard to clean the mainspring while it is still in the barrel. Lots of old grease/oil/dirt still trapped between the leaves. Your clock should run with the suspension spring you have, it just won't keep good time.
You have to oil every pivot on the clock.

 

[Paul Tummers]

Paul, its pretty hard to clean the mainspring while it is still in the barrel. Lots of old grease/oil/dirt still trapped between the leaves. Your clock should run with the suspension spring you have, it just won't keep good time.
You have to oil every pivot on the clock.

Thank you!

In this case I think, I'll have to take it apart again, look over everything once more and re-assemble the the movement, because I cannot get it running.
The anchor plate at the back now in in its highest position, perhaps I have to play with it a little more, I don not know what could be wrong otherwise.
Regards,
Paul Tummers.

 

[shutterbug]

Use your search function and read up on getting the clock in beat. A resent post by bangster has lots of information on how this is accomplished. Then let us know how it's going

 

[Kevin W.]

Hi Paul and good to hear you are working on anniversary clocks.They can be very challenging to work on.But when you get one running you will be very pleased with your efforts.
Getting them in beat is time consuming and after you do a few it gets easier.
Good luck and read up on the clocks, if you don,t have the Horolovar book, it is well worth having.

 

[Paul Tummers]

I do have the Horolovar book, the first thing I invested in before even attempting to take one of these clocks apart.
I checked and double-checked everything before I did put the movement together, the only thing I can think of is that there might be a small burr either at the engaging pin at the anchor or inside the fork on the suspension spring.
If I put the fork too low, the anchor slips over several teeth of than anchor wheel and if I set it higher I canot get it to a nice even movement from left to right vv., but is somewhat jumpy.
Regards,
Paul.

 

[Ingulphus]

Paul -

I agree with Harold's comments about the mainspring. If you haven't got a mainspring winder, you might want to consider replacing the spring with a new one - the Guide list the correct dimensions for your movement. They come confined with a twist of wire, and are compressed enough that they can slip into the barrel as you gently work the wire off - just use a worm-gear hose clamp around the barrel, to prevent any damage to the barrel hook when the spring is released. Once it's in the barrel, you can use the arbor to turn it until the outer end catches on the barrel hook (and, of course, make sure you inserted the spring in the right direction!). "Paint" the edges with a good quality oil, pop the lid back on, and as it's wound and unwound, the oil will slowly distribute itself.

Getting the old spring out merely requires needle-nosed pliers, a heavy towel, and stout gloves (I use leather gardening gloves) and eye protection. Bend the innermost coil until you can get a good grip on it. Throw a heavy towel over the barrel so that as you pull the spring out, it will be safely contained. Once it's out, you can give the barrel a good cleaning - I do the inside with fine steel wool wet with mineral spirits, then a wash in hot soapy water to remove any steel fibers. I only work on pre-1935 clocks, where the original lacquer is usually gone, so I also polish the outside surfaces to a high shine (which also makes it easier to spot any damage to a tooth).

Hope this helps!

Mark

 

[Paul Tummers]

Paul -

I agree with Harold's comments about the mainspring. If you haven't got a mainspring winder, you might want to consider replacing the spring with a new one - the Guide list the correct dimensions for your movement. They come confined with a twist of wire, and are compressed enough that they can slip into the barrel as you gently work the wire off - just use a worm-gear hose clamp around the barrel, to prevent any damage to the barrel hook when the spring is released. Once it's in the barrel, you can use the arbor to turn it until the outer end catches on the barrel hook (and, of course, make sure you inserted the spring in the right direction!). "Paint" the edges with a good quality oil, pop the lid back on, and as it's wound and unwound, the oil will slowly distribute itself.

Getting the old spring out merely requires needle-nosed pliers, a heavy towel, and stout gloves (I use leather gardening gloves) and eye protection. Bend the innermost coil until you can get a good grip on it. Throw a heavy towel over the barrel so that as you pull the spring out, it will be safely contained. Once it's out, you can give the barrel a good cleaning - I do the inside with fine steel wool wet with mineral spirits, then a wash in hot soapy water to remove any steel fibers. I only work on pre-1935 clocks, where the original lacquer is usually gone, so I also polish the outside surfaces to a high shine (which also makes it easier to spot any damage to a tooth).

Hope this helps!

Mark

I might do that when I have had the clock running for a while to make sure everything else is ok.
Cleaning it was a hell of a job, because the movement was all covered with sticky oil, and it looked, the only thing what was left alone is the main spring in its barrel.
At the moment I am polishing the shaft on which the suspension spring fork connects, the insides of the fork were a little rough just like the shaft, looks like somebody has gripped them with a pair of pliers.
I have a Lansky knife sharpening set and the white polishing stone looks perfect for the job.

 

[Kevin W.]

Just from past experience.if there is any rust preventative on the mainspring it will have to be removed before putting it in the barrel.The spring must be clean and lubricated. Shortcuts will cause head aches later.Perhaps someone near you has a main spring winder to help you.
Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[Paul Tummers]

I re-assembled the suspension unit and mounted it, set the clock more or less in beat and it is running for over two hours now- just the movement, no hands on it yet.
The pendulum swings only for about 150 degrees, just enough to let the anchor do its job on the anchor-wheel, almost no overtravel of the pendulum at either side.
I did wind the main spring 2 full turns.
What can I do to get more swing? There is almost no play in the forks of the top- and bottom block, the fork of the wire is at 90 degrees with the anchor stem to eliminate friction as much as possible and there is about 0.2 mm air between the fork and the anchor stem.
Regards,
Paul T.

 

[shutterbug]

I did wind the main spring 2 full turns.
What can I do to get more swing? There is almost no play in the forks of the top- and bottom block, the fork of the wire is at 90 degrees with the anchor stem to eliminate friction as much as possible and there is about 0.2 mm air between the fork and the anchor stem.
Regards,
Paul T.

Well, that's a good sign - running with little power applied. You'll want to adjust your fork a bit. Raise it one mm and check your rotation again. Careful not to kink the suspension spring.

 

[Paul Tummers]

Well, that's a good sign - running with little power applied. You'll want to adjust your fork a bit. Raise it one mm and check your rotation again. Careful not to kink the suspension spring.

I'll raise the fork as much as possible; there is no 1 mm left, it is already almost at the top of the stem of the anchor.It has kept running over night in exactly the same way, but I am afraid it will not run anymore with hands and washer on it.
Regards,
Paul.

 

[Paul Tummers]

I took the movement apart once more, took measurements of the main-spring as far as I could and internal/external measurements of the mainspring drum.
I also took out the stem of the anchor and gave it to my watch-maker friend who put it in his bergeon lathe and polished it for me.He polished the taps of the anchor wheel axe and the anchor itself as well.
There must have been some skipping of control in manufacture, and the clock must have been not running most of its life because the holes for the anchor wheel-taps in the front and back platines were not affected by the roughness of the tap-ends of the anchor wheel.
I also ordered a new top- and bottom block, some extra suspension springs and a new fork als well as a new main-spring, which will be cleaned and oiled by my friend who also has a winder to put it into the drum after treatment.
So I am waiting now untill those parts arrive.
Is there somebody who has a picture of the spring-washer which is missing in the hour/minute wheel train aria and its precise location?
I also would like to change the dial and hands of this clock, wher can I get those parts?
Kind Regards,
Paul

 

[shutterbug]

Please post a picture of the dial. I might have a dial and hands (or the whole clock) if you want them.

 

[Paul Tummers]

Please post a picture of the dial. I might have a dial and hands (or the whole clock) if you want them.

If you send me an E-mail, I can send you some pictures. Never was good with computers, are a member of several forums concerning shooting and reloading etc. but despite very good and detailed instructions I still cannot get a picture into a format which is ok to post in a forum.
My Email;
paultummers1951@hotmail.com

Regards,

Paul Tummers

 

[Paul Tummers]

If you send me an E-mail, I can send you some pictures. Never was good with computers, are a member of several forums concerning shooting and reloading etc. but despite very good and detailed instructions I still cannot get a picture into a format which is ok to post in a forum.
My Email;
paultummers1951@hotmail.com

Regards,

Paul Tummers

I think, I got it right for the first time in my life!!

 

[shutterbug]

Oh! Great - just ignore my email

Unfortunately, my dial is much different. But I'll check my stock tomorrow and see if I have one like yours.

 

[Paul Tummers]

Oh! Great - just ignore my email

Unfortunately, my dial is much different. But I'll check my stock tomorrow and see if I have one like yours.

If the dial is different- no problem! My wife would like a dial which looks more like the big clocks, something like the picture.
If you have something like that,please do mail a picture.
If you have the small part I am missing to regulate the tension on the hands I am interested as well.
I put the clock together with a non matching spring,put the fork as high as possible and have a pendulum swing of about 180 degrees now for days, have the feeling, with a new mainspring and the right tension spring it will run all right.

Kind Regards,
Paul Tummers.

 

[shutterbug]

The one I'm looking at is pretty small, maybe 3 to 3.5 inches. How big is yours?

 

[Paul Tummers]

The one I'm looking at is pretty small, maybe 3 to 3.5 inches. How big is yours?

Very well could be the right size, mine is 74,5 mm.

Paul.

 

[shutterbug]

The dial on mine is 78mm (including outside rim), gold, with a black border where the numbers are. Hands are gold. Want a pic?

 

[Paul Tummers]

The dial on mine is 78mm (including outside rim), gold, with a black border where the numbers are. Hands are gold. Want a pic?

Sure! The one on my clock is just a little bit smaller, size of 74,5 mm was also including the outside rim which is part of the dial on my clock.

Regards,

Paul T.

 

[Paul Tummers]

I made a small washer from a material we call "fosfor brons", a kind of bronze which is used to make springs, fitted it and mounted the old dial and hands, the new suspension spring, nice that the length of the whole spring allows for making 2 units from 1 blade with exactly the right length- 6 springs for the costs of 3,once more adjusted the top bridge which also has the jewelled bearing for the anchor in it, it works best for my clock in the highest possible position, and it works!!
I already adjusted the pendulum at its middle adjustment and the clock goes a little bit too fast, about 1 minute in 4 hours, so further adjustments will be made after having it running for a couple of days.
The pendulum swing is about 180 degrees, overtravel at both sizes is 6 mm, but it runs for now!
@ Shutterbug; I hardly can wait to see a picture of your dial!!

Regards,

Paul T.

 

[shutterbug]

Ooops! Sorry Paul. Here you go:
It has three mounts, two at the top, one at the bottom.

 

[Paul Tummers]

Ooops! Sorry Paul. Here you go:
It has three mounts, two at the top, one at the bottom.

@ Shutterbug: You have 2 PMs.

Regards,
Paul T.

 

[shutterbug]

@ Shutterbug: You have 2 PMs.

Regards,
Paul T.

Got it all boxed up, and ready to go, Paul. I hope to get to the post office today for a shipping quote. It's snowing here, so we'll see how that goes

 

[Paul Tummers]

Got it all boxed up, and ready to go, Paul. I hope to get to the post office today for a shipping quote. It's snowing here, so we'll see how that goes

That's good news, Shutterbug, I mean of the dial being ready for shipping, I am glad , the snow here has melted the last couple of days, had enough from this for this winter already, earn my living driving a surveillance car.
How are we going to settle the bill?

Regards,

Paul T.

 

[shutterbug]

That's good news, Shutterbug, I mean of the dial being ready for shipping, I am glad , the snow here has melted the last couple of days, had enough from this for this winter already, earn my living driving a surveillance car.
How are we going to settle the bill?

Regards,

Paul T.

I'll PM you with my paypal address later

 

[Paul Tummers]

I'll PM you with my paypal address later

Here are the pictures of my Schatz clock with the new dial!

 

[shutterbug]

Looks great, Paul! And my little little dial gets to be a world traveler again

 

[Paul Tummers]

@ Shutterbug;
I sent you a PM.
Kind Regards,
Paul T.