Schatz Elexacta

Discussion in 'Electric Horology' started by clocknut, Mar 19, 2006.

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  1. I have this clock the elexacta that doesn't swing? I have had this clock for about a year and it just hangs on the wall and does nothing.Thought it might be time to find out what the heck is wrong.The clock winds and the small compond pendulum moves back and forth but the clock its self doesn't swing if you give the clock a swing it will swing for a while and sounds in beat but the swing of the small pendulum gets out of sink with the clock and then stops? I wil try to post a picture of the small pend. and if you look at the top side of it there you well see a hole with wear marks around it that looks like some type of weight or something should be there. it just seems like it is out of balance. but beat sounds good.
    does any one have one of these where they can look and see or rememeber about the small pend.
    Thanks Harold

    http://pictures.aol.com/ap/welcome.do
     
  2. I have this clock the elexacta that doesn't swing? I have had this clock for about a year and it just hangs on the wall and does nothing.Thought it might be time to find out what the heck is wrong.The clock winds and the small compond pendulum moves back and forth but the clock its self doesn't swing if you give the clock a swing it will swing for a while and sounds in beat but the swing of the small pendulum gets out of sink with the clock and then stops? I wil try to post a picture of the small pend. and if you look at the top side of it there you well see a hole with wear marks around it that looks like some type of weight or something should be there. it just seems like it is out of balance. but beat sounds good.
    does any one have one of these where they can look and see or rememeber about the small pend.
    Thanks Harold

    https://mb.nawcc.org/images/imported/2006/03/1.do
     
  3. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    Aug 24, 2000
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    To my knowledge, there's two or three versions of the compound pendulum Elexacta clocks made by Schatz.

    I believe the earliest is the "Queen Anne" version that has a simple electro-magnet that resets the spring driven escapement that wags a small pendulum suspended from a plastic encased movement.

    The other half of the clock is the case and a long pendulum suspended by two needles set in jewel-like cups on the accompanying wall bracket. The bracket should have a small "plumb-bob" dangling from a chain to indicate the center of oscillation of the long pendulum for reference.

    Inside the case at the top is is an adjustable slug on a spring detented lever. The lever is positioned by the user so that the long pendulum is exactly centered over the plumb-bob when the clock is not operating. This should create a balanced beat to the clock.

    The adjustment is necessary to offset any unbalance in the upper part of the clock caused by variation in the mass of the single dry cell in the plastic cased drive pendulum movement.

    The mass of the dry-cell is said to be critical to the accuracy of the clock; alkaline cells are more massive than the original simple zinc-carbon cells. Some owners have added a compensating weight at the top of the case to achieve a fix.

    Other versions of the Elexacta compound pendulum clock employ a single transistor electro-magnetic pendulum plastic encased movement for the small simple pendulum.

    From your description, it would seem like the beat adjusting slug device in the topmost area of the clock case is missing. This is essential to establish the rate of the clock and to create a balanced beat.
     
  4. Thanks for the info.I'll try again with the photo.
    Harold
    51.jpg
     
  5. This is the fornt of the clock.
    thanks again Harold

    52.jpg
     
  6. Les on my wall bracket there is alittle brass point at the very bottom but I don't see a blumb bob of any kind?and I don't see the adjustment on the works for the beat?.
    I'll keep looking and hope the pictures help. 53.jpg
     
  7. here is the bracket and you can see the brass pointer. also the works with out pend.

    54.jpg [IMG:right]http://static.flickr.com/44/115597103_0c9195529
     
  8. les here is a couple more pictures one showing the pointer i talked about and the other one the works with out pend.

    54.jpg 55.jpg
     
  9. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    Aug 24, 2000
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    The problem I see with clocknut's Schatz Elexacta compound pendulum clock is that it is up-side-down :rolleyes: compared to my example shown here.
    http://home.earthlink.net/~lexmd/SchatzQAs.jpg

    Probably the heavier up-to-date alkaline dry cell has changed the rate of the long pendulum so far that the rate of the motor pendulum is no longer a multiple of the long pendulum's rate. I believe both pendula must have a harmonic relationship.

    Try a size "C" flashlight cell with some spacers to change the rate of the long pendulum.
     
  10. Les here is where I think something is missing.
    Thanks again Harold

    56.jpg
     
  11. Les I did try a old style batt and it didn't seem to make any differance.
    Should I get out the hack saw and make mine look like yours and then maybe it would run? :biggrin:
    I to agree that both pend.should swing together but that is the problem they don't.as soon as it starts they get out of synch and then the clock stops.I taped a paper clip to the top of the small pend. and it seem to stay in synch for a longer peroid of time. can you see the scratches in the small pend. by the hole on the top part? it looks like something had been attached to it and may be thant is what put it in synch?
     
  12. Les I just tryed a "c" cell had to put spacers on both ends to keep it balanced put it stopped again. :confused:
     
  13. Les when you said that others had added weight to the top of the clock to compensate for the weight of the battery you was talking of the type you posted right? because on mine they would be no way of doing that,you would have to add weight to the small pend:???::???: :confused:
     
  14. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    It would appear to me that indeed the small compound pendulum should have a rate near that of the long pendulum.

    The long pendulum of your Elexacta clock is a simple pendulum. It's rate is apparently not adjustible by ordinary means. ie: Changing it's center of of oscillation. Normally, simple pendula are adjusted for rate by adjusting the length which, in reality lowers or raises the center of oscillation. The lower the center of mass, the slower the rate.

    That being said, the curious feature of your Elexacta clock is that the movement is in the bob. This places the center of mass just slightly above the middle of the bob.

    The movement located in the bob has a compound pendulum. It's rate should be I believe, quite close to the natural rate of the simple pendulum which is carrying the face and movement in it's pseudo bob.

    Add just enough weight to the upper part of the compound pendulum on the plastic movement to give it a natural rate just about the same as the long simple pendulum.

    I believe then, the two pendulums will be close to synchronism and the clock will function.

    The inter-action of the simple pendulum carrying the small compound pendulum is complex owing to the motion of the long simple pendulum which shifts the apparent center of mass slightly upward as it moves away from it's center or null point.

    The math and physics associated with the compound pendulum are complex, your example is confounding!
     
  15. Les Like I said I have tryed taping paper clips to the top of the compond pend. and it seems to get better but then when I reach a certian point the compound pend. won't change directions.Once it swings over it just hanges to that side.The problem is I don't know at what lenght or direction it should be(the missing slug).I believe that what ever was attached to the hole in the upper part of the compund pend,is the reason it won't run.If I could find some one that had the same clock and had a picture of the compound pend.I could solve the problem.or even if some one still had and old instruction sheet left over from one they use to have.
    You don't happen to no of any webb pages I might try do you?
    Thanks again Harold
     
  16. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    OK, I'm just tossing out ideas, since I know nothing of your movement. I have a couple of swingers that work on magnatism. It's a remote possibility that yours is like that, and is missing the magnet. The swing would be controlled by a osscillating coil set-up that "pushes" the magnet as it swings by. Maybe??
     
  17. I don't think the mov. is set up that way it has a escape wheel and pin pallet escapement and the crutch swings the compound pendulum.
    But thanks for the tought. I have tryed about everything I can but it just doesn't want to swing.And yes I like swingers also I have a bunch of them Two if which i made form after market parts.
    Thanks Harold
     
  18. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    I really believe that a careful analysis of the gravitational mechanics that your clock employs will lead to an effective repair.

    The objective is to keep the long pendulum in motion as a simple pendulum. The earth's gravitational attraction creates a force that works against that objective. Some source of energy is going to have to supply an impulse to the long simple pendulum to counter-act the earth's gravity in order for the long pendulum to stay in motion.

    Obviously, the designer placed the small plastic encased battery movement in the bob of the long pendulum to provide the impulse.

    The small plastic cased movement has to artificially "shift" the balance of the long pendulum bob to provide an impulse to the bob.

    The impulse MUST be delivered to accelerate the long pendulum at the OPTIMUM point in the motion of the pendulum. That point is when the pendulum reaches it's maximum accleration....exactly when it reaches it's mid-point of travel. If late, the impulse will deaccelerate the pendulum.

    This rule applies to every simple pendulum.

    Frictional elements work against the propelling force. The opposite is also true. That is to say that the propelling force must be greater than the frictional forces.

    Some significtant friction may be in the pivot of the long simple pendulum which I believe is two jewel cups in the wall mount and two inverted matching needles resting in the jewel cups. The pendulum must swing freely.

    Any friction in the small plastic cased battery movement would cause it to act slowly and fail to deliver the impulse late.

    I think if you carefully inspect the jewel cups in the mounting bracket and the shape of the needle points you may a problem. However, the condition of the escapement in the little battery movement is especially suspect. If it does not swing freely and quickly, it cannot provide the propelling impulse at the proper time.

    How is the little compound pendulum suspended? If it's like I suspect, similar to a cuckoo clock pendulum suspension, then any wear or flat spots in the suspension will certainly affect it's ability to give impulse properly.

    JMO
     
  19. Les as we talk before It gets out of syncro.Just what you are saying in your last post.The main pendulum swings on needles like you thought and it has jewel cups as you thought the needles that was in the clock was rounded off and I made a new set that are alot more pointed the jewels are in good shape then are cone shaped on one side and flat on the other side so I have tryed them both ways.the small pend is set up the same way and they seem to be in good shape but are also rounded and I intend to make a new set of them also .The jewel cups are in good shape also no cracks or gouges The main pend is quite heavy and I agree it will take some push to keep it going.And that is the problem it doesn't but why ? The small pend rocks back and forth with a good motion all the time even after the large pend stopps It just doesn't have enough kick to keep the large pend going? Thats why I believe there is something missing on the small pend which was a weight and also a balancing lever to keep the clock going. But I have no Idea what weight or fisical size it was.
    Thanks for all the info.
    Harold
     
  20. tickntock1

    tickntock1 Registered User

    Feb 27, 2002
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    Hello Harold,
    Are you still having the problem with your elexacta?

    I have a friend that has the same model and works as yours and his operate just fine. Want me to take a pic of the movement and pendulum?

    I also called him and he said that the disc that has the hole in it (the top in your pics) is at the bottom on the pendulum on his!! and that there's some type of smaller disc that allows you to rotate one of them to get the whole thing in beat.

    Let me know if you want a pic.
    Jim
    tickntock1@hotmail.com
     
  21. Up Date!!
    I finally found some time to spend on my little swinger and I'm happy to report I finial have it working and keeping good time.I took the movement a part again and chucked up the escape wheel in the lathe and found that I had two teeth that was just slightly shorter then the others,so I topped it off and re cleaned it all.I also put a little more tension on the small hair spring and it has been running and keeping time for a couple days.
    Thanks every one for your help.
    Clocknut
     
  22. Technomaniac

    Technomaniac New Member

    Dec 16, 2009
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    Hi, Guys. I've always wanted a swinger and have just bought one on ebay. It's missing the little pendulum and the wall bracket. And it's had battery leakage. Also there's one of the ball-ended finials missing, and a little brassy cone shell which keeps the dust off of one of the two swinging pivot points.
    The only ID I can see is 67-2 stamped on the rear movement plate, but that's more likely the date than the model. It's Schatz Elexacta, though I think I can recall seeing a ball-shaped dial/case on one, this is the flatter one with black and gold appearance. If it would be convenient, I would appreciate seeing at least a photo of the small pendulum and wall bracket, so I can make up something close to the original appearance. Even a pix of the homemade one would save me a lot of experimentation. I just tried to upload front and rear pix but my camera batteries died in the process, and as my charged up ready to go spares (cheap rubbish from China) also died after a couple of seconds in the camera, I may have another go after recharge. Cheers.
     
  23. Burkhard Rasch

    Burkhard Rasch Registered User
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    Use the search funktion of the MB with Schatz Elexacta and You´ll get plenty of info incl.pics.Waiting to see Your pics!
    Regards
    Burkhard
     
  24. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User

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    Here is one i bought today, no pendulum, but i do have the wall mount.
     

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  25. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    Kevin. I think it would be helpful to this thread if you can post photos of the backside of your Schatz Elexacta compound pendulum clock including the bracket.

    Reason: I have seen two variations of the Schatz Elexacta clock and one example is inverted. That is to say that your example and a couple I've had but no longer own named "Queen Anne," had the battery movement, face and motion works all above the wall bracket pivot. A different model had the works and all down below the wall bracket pivot.
     
  26. leeinv66

    leeinv66 Moderator
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    Like this Les?

    61.jpg
     
  27. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User

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    Thanks Les and Peetah.The clock you posted Peetah, is exactly like mine.Thanks i will copy and save this for reference.
     
  28. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    An excellent reference Pee-tah.

    I note especially that the first paragraph explains that the movement shown is an "electronic" type and that production prior to 1971 would have instead, a battery wound "klappmagnet" pedulum movement to actuate the time train.
     
  29. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User

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    I think mine is the older model that Les mentions.
    Just 2 pictures of mine.I really have the itch to see it going.The movement seems to run when i put a battery in it.Either i have to find a baterry holder for a c cell or make one.
     

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  30. Burkhard Rasch

    Burkhard Rasch Registered User
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    Kevin,what You realy need is the two cups the pins of Your clocks ride in!If You look at Your clock with a loupe You´ll see two brass pins the whole clock is resting on.With the loupe You see that the tips of these brass pins are tiny steel balls like in a ballpen.These pins ride in brass cups fitted with slightly excavated jewels.If You want to make Your own wall bracket You need these cups,otherwise Your clock won´t run.Try Your regular suppliers,and PM me if You don´t have succes.My watchmaker has a "scrap-box" of Schatz parts,I´m sure I can help You getting a pair.These clocks absolutely are fascinating when running!
    Burkhard
     
  31. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User

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    Hi Burkhard, i should have mentioned, yes i have the bracket with the two cups, the clock pivots on.I figure it will run but on a d cell not well, so later will get the adapter, it just intrigues me so much.The 400 day and the Hettich and this one would be fun to watch while running.
    How many of the Queen Anne clocks do you have running in your home Burkhard.
    And this one is a little different as the name Elexact on the dial.As discussed, maybe made for the European market.
     
  32. Burkhard Rasch

    Burkhard Rasch Registered User
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    There were three general types and I have an example of each.I´ll show pics asap.Some missunderstanding occurs as Schatz also called their ATO-ballance clocks "Elexata".Yours is the "Queen Anne",the others were called "Pendulo" and "Bipolar".
    Burkhard
     
  33. Burkhard Rasch

    Burkhard Rasch Registered User
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    Kevin,I should have read Your thread more concentrated :confused:
    Here are the promised pics of my Schatzes(or Schätze)
    Hope You like!
    Burkhard
     

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  34. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User

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    Very nice Burkhard, i like all of them.You have a nice variety of clocks in your collection.
    I will be very pleased to get my Queen Anne going again someday.
     

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