Schatz 8 day Cuckoo

rjdj2000

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Well have done found me one of these. Just from the looks of it, it looks like it had a rough life. The head piece doesn't look like it is original, the bellows are gone but all pieces are there. Movement is in serious need of cleaning. I did hang it just to see if it would run, runs for a little bit then stops with pendulum attached. If I take the pendulum off it ran for a good half hour and then I stopped it so it does have life left in it. I do have the one piece that is broken on the face part but the other side is MIA. So will have to try to make something by kind of duplicating the left side and them matching up the color on it. Have already ordered some parts for it to get it torn down and cleaned. I have already done my 1 day and it is still running like a champ but the Regula 25 is way simpler than this one and by looking at threads here on the forum, this is not going to be an easy one to do as everything has to be in a certain place in order to function properly.

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shutterbug

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Keep us updated ;)
 

rjdj2000

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Keep us updated ;)
Shutter,

I will do that. Probably will work on it when I can as with the holiday fast approaching, other things have to be done but I will have some time the weekend of thanksgiving as I’ll have a 4 day weekend. So may work on at least getting everything taken out of the case and look things over.
 

rjdj2000

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Did have a couple questions before I started messing around with this. What do you all use to clean the brass plates? Very fine steel wool or even a fine scotch brite type pad? I have never dull for polishing/cleaning brass as my dad used to use it for that type stuff years ago and it works quite well, just not so sure on these plates as it looks and feels a little rough.

Also, anyone have an idea as to the size of the proper head piece for this? Or is it because of the coloring of the head piece that is throwing me off? The case measures 5" wide, 7-7/8" from top of peak to bottom of case, 7-1/2" across the roof and just over 4" deep. The head piece (pictured above) measures about 8-1/2" on the 'stick' portion of it. This sure is a compact little thing to have the size weights it has.

Hopefully my parts will be here soon and I can work on this little bugger and get it (hopefully) running without any issues. Some other threads on here show some of the things that I will need to pay special attention to as mentioned by Willie X and Schatznut I believe.
 

rjdj2000

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This movements are complicated just to be complicated.
Yeah so I have read in other posts in here. I do have one question though, I hung it up today just to see if it would run with the pendulum. So far it has ran all day just fine. Except it is running about 10-15 minutes fast and I have dropped the leaf on the pendulum to the bottom of the slot in the pendulum. On the movement it has 50, so I am taking that as the movement number, but how long would the pendulum be for these? As I should be able to regulate it to at least +/- 5 minutes a day correct?
 

shutterbug

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Yes. You might have the wrong pendulum for the movement. They come in different lengths. The sticks are easy to reproduce, so I usually make my own. I'd make it 3 inches longer. You can always shorten it later if desired.
 

rjdj2000

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Yes. You might have the wrong pendulum for the movement. They come in different lengths. The sticks are easy to reproduce, so I usually make my own. I'd make it 3 inches longer. You can always shorten it later if desired.
Shutterbug,

Would the leaf on it still work or would it be best to maybe increase the size of the leaf to about what the ones are on the case? I know the head piece isn't the right one as there is two bent wires that don't line up onto the bent mounts on the roof. Will have to get a picture of it someday. What clued me to not being right was the color of it compared to the case color. I can live with it as it matches the size of the roof and when I color match to repair the face frame, I will probably just paint the head piece to match and come up with a way to mount onto the tabs on the roof. Probably a staple will work just fine for that.
 

POWERSTROKE

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Sounds like you have a Frankenstein. The bob on a cuckoo should really be right under the trim on a cuckoo clock.
 

rjdj2000

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Sounds like you have a Frankenstein. The bob on a cuckoo should really be right under the trim on a cuckoo clock.
Yes, I could quite possibly have. Here is pictures of head piece and mounting. The color is pretty close now that I look at it again, just the sheen isn't there like the face frame. Also you can see where the bob is on pendulum so I am pretty sure that is wrong as it should be up on the stick somewhat and not at the bottom. My 1 day regula one is pretty close to being tucked under the face frame and it runs fine there, not this one.

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Schatznut

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This movements are complicated just to be complicated.
No, they're just beautifully engineered and don't take any shortcuts. The only complication they have is the mechanism that retracts and extends the bird with every call. If one takes the time to understand how it works, it's pretty easy to set up. Actually, the only sensitive adjustment is the length of the wire that actuates the door. And that wire has to be perfectly straight for it to work correctly.
 

rjdj2000

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No, they're just beautifully engineered and don't take any shortcuts. The only complication they have is the mechanism that retracts and extends the bird with every call. If one takes the time to understand how it works, it's pretty easy to set up. Actually, the only sensitive adjustment is the length of the wire that actuates the door. And that wire has to be perfectly straight for it to work correctly.
Yes it is quite the movement for a cuckoo. I managed to get the bellows repaired last night and installed to see how it would all work and I think it got hung up somewhere (I know now that I need to tear this apart to look into it) but I managed to get it back on track as it is very slow to start on the strike train then it will get into motion ok and finish. There is a thread here: Schatz 8 day cuckoo problem where everyone pointed to the lift levers for bellows and strike. I moved them this morning and it took right off. As a quick look this morning, I did not see anything binding but with such a small case, it is hard to see around the right bellow and tube. I do know when they are not in there, she takes right off and runs the gong just fine. So I know it has something to do with the addition of the bellows and tubes. I will probably take one at a time out and see which one is not letting it start normally. I've looked through quite a few threads in here on these and there is quite a bit to them but all in all it does the same thing as other movements. Just those pesky bird levers to get bird out and in.
 

Schatznut

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If the lever for the high note is riding on the star wheel when the strike train is locked, the movement may not have enough power to start the sequence reliably - this is one fiddly adjustment that seems to plague cuckoos in general and the KU50 in particular. If you can adjust it such that there is clearance between the lever and the wheel when locked, that will allow the movement to come out of lock and build a little momentum before it has to lift the lever, and it should start and run the sequence reliably.
 

rjdj2000

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If the lever for the high note is riding on the star wheel when the strike train is locked, the movement may not have enough power to start the sequence reliably - this is one fiddly adjustment that seems to plague cuckoos in general and the KU50 in particular. If you can adjust it such that there is clearance between the lever and the wheel when locked, that will allow the movement to come out of lock and build a little momentum before it has to lift the lever, and it should start and run the sequence reliably.
Thank you Schatznut for this info. I will probably be taking this apart this weekend and I will take a few pictures and post them. Now there has been mention of greasing on certain parts, is these levers part of it or was that more for the bird going in and out? The threads I've looked at really didn't explain in detail where to put any. My thoughts on it is that it shouldn't be greased as over time it would not allow things to work properly, but I could be wrong.
 

rjdj2000

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Schatznut - I managed to catch it about to go through a cycle. Short video below. I think a good clean and adjust is what it needs but it has ran all day without issue though. Will see if it makes it through the night tonight.

 

Schatznut

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Thank you Schatznut for this info. I will probably be taking this apart this weekend and I will take a few pictures and post them. Now there has been mention of greasing on certain parts, is these levers part of it or was that more for the bird going in and out? The threads I've looked at really didn't explain in detail where to put any. My thoughts on it is that it shouldn't be greased as over time it would not allow things to work properly, but I could be wrong.
I'll make it really easy for you: NO GREASE. Light clock oil on pivots; just barely touch the escapement teeth with an artist's brush dampened with oil.
 

rjdj2000

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I'll make it really easy for you: NO GREASE. Light clock oil on pivots; just barely touch the escapement teeth with an artist's brush dampened with oil.
Yeah I kind of figured that. When I did my other cuckoo movement, Regula 25, I just put a light dab on the pivots and she has been purring or should I say, cuckoo-ing right along ever since. I know grease would be a bad thing on any movement as it would just collect dust, etc and eventually destroy it.
 

POWERSTROKE

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After doing over a thousand cuckoo clocks, I have to say that the modern Regulas are the best engineered, no-nonsense movements. I have a soft spot for Herrs because they were family operated and did everything in house, but need to be just right. Everything else is really finicky if someone else doodled with it.
 
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rjdj2000

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Well after looking at this one just a minute ago as it hung up again. When moving the (I believe this is right) first wheel (where chain is) I can see movement in the pivot on the 2nd and possibly 3rd wheel on the back frame. So..... Probably going to need bushings put in to make this work properly. Right now I don't have any so I will have to look around at the parts places and maybe locate a kit of some sorts to get to do them. As I don't really want to take this apart to measure things then have it sit for however long it takes for the parts to come in and then not know where things go. If anyone can recommend a kit or the best place to get some, please do.
 

Schatznut

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Well after looking at this one just a minute ago as it hung up again. When moving the (I believe this is right) first wheel (where chain is) I can see movement in the pivot on the 2nd and possibly 3rd wheel on the back frame. So..... Probably going to need bushings put in to make this work properly. Right now I don't have any so I will have to look around at the parts places and maybe locate a kit of some sorts to get to do them. As I don't really want to take this apart to measure things then have it sit for however long it takes for the parts to come in and then not know where things go. If anyone can recommend a kit or the best place to get some, please do.
I'm attaching a worksheet I made when working on a KU50 recently. It may be useful to you as a starting point, but there's no guarantee the pivot dimensions in your clock are the same. Measurement is the only way to be completely sure. If it is truly hung up, as opposed to not making power to continue running, the most likely culprit is T3R. This particular movement needed three bushings in the time train, but none in the strike train.
 

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rjdj2000

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I'm attaching a worksheet I made when working on a KU50 recently. It may be useful to you as a starting point, but there's no guarantee the pivot dimensions in your clock are the same. Measurement is the only way to be completely sure. If it is truly hung up, as opposed to not making power to continue running, the most likely culprit is T3R. This particular movement needed three bushings in the time train, but none in the strike train.
Thank you. Yes it will be a starting point. The movement runs fine except that somehow it gained an hour overnight, still think that has to do with wrong pendulum. I borrowed the larger pendulum off of my 30 hour regula to see if it helps with that part. The strike train still got hung up last night. I removed both bellows from the clock and it will run through the strike cycle perfectly fine. When I had it down, I put finger pressure on the chain wheel on the strike side and I had movement on the pivots circled. Probably enough to slow it down or to not even cycle fine as gears could of bound up. So I imagine that putting bushings in, which I need to look up how to do them properly, will help resolve the power loss at start as the 2 bellows levers and the gong lever are not touching the lifting wheel and look to be centered in between the lifts. It will probably be a later project when I can tear it down, take lots of pictures for placement of things, then clean and do bushings in it and get it back together. As well as repair the face on the case.


View recent photos.jpg
 

Schatznut

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Thank you. Yes it will be a starting point. The movement runs fine except that somehow it gained an hour overnight, still think that has to do with wrong pendulum. I borrowed the larger pendulum off of my 30 hour regula to see if it helps with that part. The strike train still got hung up last night. I removed both bellows from the clock and it will run through the strike cycle perfectly fine. When I had it down, I put finger pressure on the chain wheel on the strike side and I had movement on the pivots circled. Probably enough to slow it down or to not even cycle fine as gears could of bound up. So I imagine that putting bushings in, which I need to look up how to do them properly, will help resolve the power loss at start as the 2 bellows levers and the gong lever are not touching the lifting wheel and look to be centered in between the lifts. It will probably be a later project when I can tear it down, take lots of pictures for placement of things, then clean and do bushings in it and get it back together. As well as repair the face on the case.


View attachment 737789
It might be a good idea to build your confidence by bushing and rebuilding a cuckoo with a Regula 25 movement first - they are plentiful, inexpensive, and almost guaranteed, due to their thin plates, to have a worn bushing or two... or three, or four. The KU50 is more complex, and strikingly dissimilar (pardon the pun) from Regulas, Badufs, and other movements. That, coupled with its inherent beefiness, is why it's my favorite cuckoo movement.

Compared to other clocks, cuckoos tend to have significant play in their pivots as new. There are various theories about why this is, and they'll continue to soldier on until pivot wear becomes extreme. I've seen cuckoos that were running with pivots whose holes were elongated to almost twice their diameters. Granted, they weren't running strongly, but they were running.
 

rjdj2000

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It might be a good idea to build your confidence by bushing and rebuilding a cuckoo with a Regula 25 movement first - they are plentiful, inexpensive, and almost guaranteed, due to their thin plates, to have a worn bushing or two... or three, or four. The KU50 is more complex, and strikingly dissimilar (pardon the pun) from Regulas, Badufs, and other movements. That, coupled with its inherent beefiness, is why it's my favorite cuckoo movement.

Compared to other clocks, cuckoos tend to have significant play in their pivots as new. There are various theories about why this is, and they'll continue to soldier on until pivot wear becomes extreme. I've seen cuckoos that were running with pivots whose holes were elongated to almost twice their diameters. Granted, they weren't running strongly, but they were running.
Schatznut here is a quick video showing the play in the pivots that I was talking about. If this does not seem excessive enough then I will probably take the movement out of the case to further investigate as to why it will strike fine for hours then for no apparent reason, lock at the start of the strike and just continue to run on the time side until it is taken down and helped to finish the strike it was trying to run.

 

Schatznut

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Schatznut here is a quick video showing the play in the pivots that I was talking about. If this does not seem excessive enough then I will probably take the movement out of the case to further investigate as to why it will strike fine for hours then for no apparent reason, lock at the start of the strike and just continue to run on the time side until it is taken down and helped to finish the strike it was trying to run.

There's wear, to be sure, perhaps enough to cause it to stall, but should not be enough to cause it to lock up. If you do not have the tools and expertise to bush it properly, you possibly could get away with dismantling and cleaning it, polishing the pivots, reassembling and oiling it. It might run for a long time before it is overtaken by terminal wear. Before you get too far into it, try disconnecting the door wire and leaving the door open. Run it for a day or two and see how it does. Ironically, this is a totally non-precise assembly, and any friction or binding here has the strongest effect on the ability of the movement to run and complete the cycle. And as I mentioned before, make sure the door wire is perfectly, laser-straight.
 

shutterbug

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Yeah, that pendulum is way longer than the OP's. That is likely the cause of the problem :)
 

rjdj2000

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There's wear, to be sure, perhaps enough to cause it to stall, but should not be enough to cause it to lock up. If you do not have the tools and expertise to bush it properly, you possibly could get away with dismantling and cleaning it, polishing the pivots, reassembling and oiling it. It might run for a long time before it is overtaken by terminal wear. Before you get too far into it, try disconnecting the door wire and leaving the door open. Run it for a day or two and see how it does. Ironically, this is a totally non-precise assembly, and any friction or binding here has the strongest effect on the ability of the movement to run and complete the cycle. And as I mentioned before, make sure the door wire is perfectly, laser-straight.
Ok. Will try it and see how it does. Will check straightness as well, saw that in one of your posts in another thread also. As to the pendulum, mine measures from top of hook to end, 6-3/4" so it is way short of what should be on there. The one pictured looks closer to 9-10" long. As I said in the beginning, it does need a teardown and a good cleaning so maybe that is what I'll do for the time being. But for now I'll hook the bellows back up and remove the door wire to see if that could be causing it to stall. Then check the straightness of the wire also.
 

rjdj2000

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The pendulum stick on my original Schatz is 9.5" long.
S_Owsley,

Thank you for measuring that. How big is the leaf on it? 3" or 2-1/2"? Right now I have my pendulum from my Regula 25 one on it and it seems to be doing better on time. The shorter one is on the Regula one and it is doing ok, just looks tiny compared to the house. I will look around for an 8 day one that is at least that long.

Jeff
 

Schatznut

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Schatz made it very easy to time these clocks - their beat rate is 120BPM, or 1/2 sec per beat.
 

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