Schatz 8 Day Cuckoo Clock Questions

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by Schatz70, Oct 5, 2019.

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  1. Schatz70

    Schatz70 Registered User

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    This is my first attempt at clock repair. I bought this clock used. I took the movement out of the case for testing - the strike side seemed to be working but on the run side the pendulum would go back and forth a few times and stop. The whole movement was very dirty. So I took the whole thing apart, cleaned the plates and wheels, and put back just the run side train. With no oil on it it ran for maybe twelve hours and then stopped. So I put some oil on it and it has been running maybe ten hours. I have three pictures from the back.

    Here are my questions: There is a loop at the bottom of the wire coming down from the anchor and the pendulum wire flops back and forth within the loop. Does that look right to you, or do I need to adjust the anchor wire so there is less play between the pendulum wire and the anchor wire? I want to make sure the run side is OK before I put the rest of it back together. Any suggestions on what I should do?

    There are a couple of unusual things about this movement - the bird design built into the plates and the fact that the run side is on the left looking from the back.

    Cuckoo clock 9 12 2019 001.JPG Cuckoo clock 9 12 2019 002.JPG Cuckoo clock 9 12 2019 003.JPG
     
  2. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    Welcome to the Message Board!
    The "loop" or crutch should be carefully closed a bit so that there is very minimal slop but the pendulum rod can still move freely within the crutch without friction. This will improve the pendulum amplitude.

    Uhralt
     
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  3. Schatz70

    Schatz70 Registered User

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    The pendulum wire is a little over 1 mm in diameter, let's call it 1.1 mm just eyeballing it with a ruler. The amount of play inside the crutch at the moment is about 2.2 mm. What should it be? 2 mm? 1.5 mm? Even less than that? I can see that if I squish the crutch a little tighter the pendulum will swing in a slightly larger arc. What is the advantage of getting more swing in the pendulum?
     
  4. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    You should have as little slop in the crutch foot as possible as long as it is not zero. The difficulty here is that as you squeeze it together you may get it too tight at the end where it is folded before you get it right at the open end. It helps if you keep the pendulum rod in the crotch of the bend while forming it. The advantage of more amplitude is that you have more "over swing" and much greater stability. Over swing is how far the pendulum moves in the same direction after the escapement "ticks" and releases an escape wheel tooth. When the over swing drops to zero the clock likely will stop. When the over swing is small the clock becomes more sensitive to being level or out of beat so that even a small amount of out of beat will cause the clock to stop. Just as important, the maker designed your clock to have a pretty substantial over swing so if you only have a small over swing it is often a sign that you have some mechanical problems causing a loss of power - a poorly fitted crutch foot is just one possibility.

    RC
     
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  5. Schatz70

    Schatz70 Registered User

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    Thanks RC - that's very helpful.
     
  6. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    The crutch eye is always big on cuckoo clocks ... Only thing that I might change, would be to make the rear bend in the eye more round and make the two sides closer to parallel. This should decrease the clearance slightly. Also, the leader is usually captive within the loop/eye. I don't have a Schatz cuckoo to compair it with though. Willie X
     
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  7. Schatz70

    Schatz70 Registered User

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    Thanks, guys. I squeezed the loop at the foot of the crutch closed a little bit. The pendulum wire can still be moved back and forth within the loop but now there is less slop between the pendulum wire and the crutch. I think the pendulum is swinging in a slightly larger arc now.

    Cuckoo clock 9 12 2019 004.JPG
     
  8. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    One way to evaluate whether you have enough pendulum swing is to observe the escape wheel as the clock is running. near the end of the swing in each direction the escape wheel should stop and back up (recoil) a bit before resuming its forward direction. If the recoil is very obvious then you are probably OK.

    RC
     
  9. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    Crutch eye looks good. Clean-up looks good too.

    It's always tempting to just put that sucka on th wall and see what happens. But, IMOE, it's always best to set it up where it can run from one day to another for a few days. It takes a little extra time but not nearly as much time as doing an 'all up' test and having to take it back apart ...

    Often, you will have to make some little blocks to keep the bellow lift wires from dropping down too far and jaming. And always put the minute hand and nut back on.

    WIllie X
     
  10. Schatz70

    Schatz70 Registered User

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    I don't see the escape wheel backing up but it definitely pauses when the pallets on the anchor interact with the teeth on the escape wheel.
     
  11. Schatz70

    Schatz70 Registered User

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    Your comments have been very helpful. This is the first clock I've ever taken apart, so I am in no hurry to move to the next step. My plan is to let it run with just the run train for a couple of days to make sure it doesn't stop.
     
  12. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Perhaps you can post a video to You-Tube and link here showing the escapement operating and the over all pendulum swing. Most of these have recoil escapements but perhaps yours does not. Easy to tell if we see the escapement operating.

    RC
     
  13. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    The cuckoo-strike mechanism is strange enough to warrant some explanation. Here it is.
    SCHATZ CUCKOO(1)_1.jpg SCHATZ CUCKOO(1)_2.jpg SCHATZ CUCKOO(1)_3.jpg
     
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  14. Schatz70

    Schatz70 Registered User

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    I've posted a YouTube video of the escape wheel moving and the pendulum here:
     
  15. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    The amplitude is a bit small but the clock is not in beat. Try setting the beat so that you get an even tick-tock. Then the amplitude should be better and you may see the recoil. Another video with the clock in beat would be helpful.

    Uhralt
     
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  16. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    What Uhralt said.

    RC
     
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  17. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    Yep, the beat is off.

    Schatz 8-day cickoo clocks don't have much of a pendulum swing. I haven't worked on one for a while but I'm thinking the weights were not as large/heavy as other 8-day cuckoos.

    WIllie X
     
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  18. Schatz70

    Schatz70 Registered User

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    OK I've made some adjustments to the crutch and shot a longer video of the escapement and pendulum. Comments? How does it look to the experts?

    With the clock stopped, I put the ruler under the center of the pendulum centered on the 6 of the ruler. It looks like the pendulum travels about an inch either side of center.

     
  19. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    Sounds good now! I can see a small recoil as well. The width of the crutch also looks good. Good job!

    Uhralt
     
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  20. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    I agree. It should run now.
     
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  21. Schatz70

    Schatz70 Registered User

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    I think you are right that the Schatz weights are smaller than other 8 day weights - see first photo with the Schatz weight in my hand. Also the Schatz pendulum is longer (9.5 inches) than my other 8 day clock (6 inches).

    Cuckoo clock 9 12 2019 002.JPG Cuckoo clock 9 12 2019 001.JPG
     
  22. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    Regula 8-days used to come with 1260 gm weights but switched to 1500 gm weights about 20 years (?) ago.

    Can you weigh the weights you have for the Schatz? It might help someone looking for lost weights for a Schatz 8-day.

    WIllie X
     
  23. Schatz70

    Schatz70 Registered User

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    I think the Schatz 8 day weights are 1260 g. On my scale, it weighs 2.75 lbs.
    1 oz = 28.55g
    2.75 X 16 X 28.55 = 1256.2 which is close to the 1260 you cite.

    The other weight in the picture is stamped 1500. It weighs 3.25 lbs.
    3.25 X 16 X 28.55 = 1484.6 which is pretty close to 1500.
     
  24. Schatz70

    Schatz70 Registered User

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    The run side has been working for a couple of days so now I'm about ready to put the whole thing back together but there are a couple of things I am worried about especially with the third and fourth wheels of the strike side (S3 and S4). In the first picture, S3 is in the center of the photo with S4 to the right and the fan (S5) further to the right and the lifting lever for the bird lever and the door lever off to the left. The second picture is a sketch of where everything is on the back plate. So here are my questions:

    1. S3 has a partial cylinder with the gap between 9 o'clock and 12 o'clock as viewed from the back. When it strikes hour n, S3 rotates one full rotation clockwise (from the back) n times, pushing up the lifting lever as it does this. Before I took it apart, I noticed that after the strike it finishes with the lifting lever sitting on the open part of the cam at 9 o'clock as shown in the first picture. So my plan is to make sure to have S3 in this position before I put on the gathering pallet which goes on the front of the S3 arbor. Does this make sense?

    2. At the end of the strike, there is a tab on the rack hook which ends up resting on the indent of the gathering pallet, which is what stops the strike. My plan is to put on the gathering pallet last and make sure the tab of the rack hook is in the indent. Does this make sense?

    3. S4 has a pin on the outer edge of the gear facing the front plate, visible in the first photo. Is it important to orient this pin in a particular spot when I put in S4? My guess is yes. I think this pin pushes up a tab on the rack hook that comes over and hangs on the back side of the front plate (see top of the front plate in the third photo).

    As you can tell, I am a newbie and don't know much about rack and snail strike mechanisms. Thanks for any help.

    Cuckoo clock 9 12 2019 005.JPG Cuckoo clock 9 12 2019 010.JPG Cuckoo clock 9 12 2019 008.JPG
     
  25. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Sure. Follow your instincts and see how it works.
     
  26. Schatz70

    Schatz70 Registered User

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    That's good advice. To answer my own question from above, I think that the position of the third wheel when you put the gathering pallet on is important (both the position of the cam between the plates and the position of the gathering pallet relative to the rack hook) but you don't have to worry about the pin on the fourth wheel.. I put it all back together today and have it running on a test stand.
     
  27. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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  28. Schatz70

    Schatz70 Registered User

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    Oops. There is a brass emblem above the dial which says Schatz 8 DAY which was badly tarnished. The dial was already missing the VI and I got a little too enthusiastic with the steel wool in cleaning up the brass and managed to knock off and lose the XII. At this point I'm going to replace the dial. I found a suitable 3 1/8" / 80 mm dial on Amazon.

    The decorative piece on the left had previously been broken and glued but the glue had failed so I had to glue it again. After I get the old dial off I'm going to have to do some refinishing of the case and carving.

    Cuckoo clock 9 12 2019 001.JPG
     
  29. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    You can also just replace the numerals. They are available at the supply houses.

    Uhralt
     
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  30. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    That broken trim will usually break again if you nail it back on using the old nail holes. I usually use two nails on the best side and a couple of dabs of E-6000 craft adhesive on the other side. Weight the ole E-6000 down overnight and there will be no strain on the broken trim.

    WIllie X
     
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  31. Schatz70

    Schatz70 Registered User

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    This is like herding cats. I found the missing VI and XII on the floor, after of course having ordered a replacement dial and after having pried the original dial off of the case. So I glued the VI and the XII back down, let the glue dry, and tapped the four nails back in to attach the dial to the case, and off pop the III and the IIII. Sigh.

    Cuckoo clock 9 12 2019 001.JPG
     
  32. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    It's good they came off now and not later. Glue them back on and test if the remaining ones are still glued on solid.

    Uhralt
     
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  33. Schatz70

    Schatz70 Registered User

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    So far I've glued back on the III, IIII, VI, VIII and XII. I'm beginning to understand why some guys are religious about working on top of a towel that will catch anything that comes loose.
     
  34. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    I've found on those old dials that if one number comes off, the others are not far behind. You might as well just do them all ;)
     
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  35. Schatz70

    Schatz70 Registered User

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    I finally put the movement back in the case and I see I still have some work to do. There are some issues with the door - on the warning the door gets kicked half open and during the strike it doesn't open quite far enough. The explanation that bangster posted above is quite detailed and helpful but I'm going to have to read it about another six times.
     
  36. Schatz70

    Schatz70 Registered User

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    #36 Schatz70, Oct 13, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2019
    Another thing not working right is the gong. I left the bellows out and shined a light up through the pendulum opening and looked in through the bellows opening to see what is going on - the hammer instead of striking the horizontal part of the gong like it should is wedging itself on the inside edge of the gong. So I'm going to have to bend the hammer out towards the back and maybe bring the gong down (or bend the hammer up) a little as well. I think the bellows are going to be OK but I've got to fix these other issues before I will really know.
     
  37. Schatz70

    Schatz70 Registered User

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    #37 Schatz70, Oct 13, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2019
    One thing I've found out the hard way is that when putting a dial on you want to have the movement in the case to get the dial centered properly around the minute tube and hour tube. Well, duh. Live and learn.
     
  38. Schatz70

    Schatz70 Registered User

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    I have a one minute video showing some of the problems I'm having. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

    It's striking out of sequence, so some sort of rack and snail problem. I wrote down the number of strikes I'm getting: 1,9,1,11,1,8,1,1,1,2,1,3,1,4,1,5,1,3,1,4,1,8

    Also there are issues with the door - on the warning it's kicking the door half open. On the strike the door doesn't open fully, and at the end of the strike it doesn't audibly close the way it should.

    I have the gong adjusted to where it sounds OK. I don't have the bellows installed at the moment.

     
  39. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    I think we need to see the front of the movement during a similar video. Pull the dial off again and lets see it working.
     
  40. Schatz70

    Schatz70 Registered User

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    I think what I'm going to do is take the movement back out of the case so I can better see what is going on with the door lever in addition to the rack and snail issue.
     

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