Schatz 53 - Removal of captive center arbor

Discussion in '400-Day & Atmos' started by KurtinSA, Jul 25, 2018.

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  1. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    I'm back working on this London Coach Schatz Model 53 because it has stopped running after my overhaul. I have better tools and procedures, so maybe I can do a better job this time.

    In this movement, the center arbor is captive in that the cannon pinion is secured to the shaft and won't easily slide off to permit complete disassembly. Actually it's not a full cannon pinion, but just the leaves that are secured to the shaft.

    What's the advice for separating the center arbor from the front plate so I can address the bushing and pivot surface? How do I get it off? What are the things I need to be aware of in order to return the cannon pinion leaves to the shaft...will they come off with no damage so that they can be restored to the shaft?

    The first time around, I chose to clean in place which neglected any issues with the bushing/pivot through the front plate.

    Thanks...Kurt
     
  2. Harry Hopkins

    Harry Hopkins Registered User
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    #2 Harry Hopkins, Jul 25, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2018
    Kurt, I always remove them. With the right tools and procedure it is safe and easy. I have never had a problem or damaged any of the pieces. First you will need to find a way to support the plate as close to the center arbor as possible. The first picture is the anvil I would use for this job but any way to support the plate near the arbor would work. 2nd picture shows how it looks with the plate setting on anvil. Then I find a hollow punch out of my staking set that will just fit over the threads and rest on the shoulder. One or two light taps with a small hammer will release it easily. To put it back you will need an anvil with small holes as in the picture.. Find the smallest hole that the pivot will fit in then slide the plate over the arbor then slide the pinion on. The pinion will slide most of the way down the arbor then just find a larger hollow punch to fit over the arbor and drive the pinion the rest of the way. On the Schatz 53 the pinion will rest on a shoulder so no need to worry about putting it on to far.

    image000000 (43).jpg image000000 (44).jpg image000000 (45).jpg image000000 (46).jpg image000000 (50).jpg View attachment 486910
     
  3. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Thanks. Hmmm...all things that I don't have. And there's no issue with tearing up the inside diameter of the pinion which is brass on steel? Seems like doing that too many times will just create the situation where the pinion is too big.

    What about using heat and cold...heat for removal and cold for installation?

    Looks like I'll be going through this one again without getting to the center arbor. :banghead:

    Kurt
     
  4. Harry Hopkins

    Harry Hopkins Registered User
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    This pinion is not tight enough to need heat and cold to remove or install it. A couple of light taps is all it takes. It would not be the most desired way to remove it but you could put the nut on the threads and tap it out with a nylon or leather hammer. If you don't have an anvil maybe you have a crow's foot which would work pretty well also. Any way you can figure out to support the plate will work. The punches you need can be made from brass round stock. I suppose as you suggest that after a dozen or so removals and installations the pinion might not fit as tightly but there are ways to fix that also.
     
  5. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Thanks. I'm going to set this aside and take the front plate to someone that can provide me help and so I can see what goes on. These are things that I just don't have experience with.

    I hate having to step away from this...I had made up my mind that I needed to get the clock running. Now I'll have to shift focus and look somewhere else. :(

    Kurt
     
  6. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    I cut bits of scrap pipe to act as anvils. It isn't rocket science.
     
  7. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Maybe to some. But at times, it feels like heart surgery to me.

    Kurt
     
  8. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    PVC pipe and small brass slug with an arbor-sized hole always worked fine for me.
    I press them back on in the vise with two pieces of brass tubing.
     
  9. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Martin -

    How do you push off the pinion with a brass slug? Does this brass slug fit over the arbor or just the threaded end of the arbor? Doesn't the brass deform over time with it being driven into the steel arbor?

    As for pressing on, I'm guessing you have a larger ID to fit over the center arbor wheel and then a smaller ID tube to fit over the exposed arbor but small enough to run up against the pinion. Then put all that into a vise and drive things together.

    Kurt
     
  10. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    #10 MartinM, Jul 26, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2018
    Take a short length (say, 1/2 inch) of say, i/4 inch brass bar and drill a hole partway into the end of it the size of the front (threaded) end of the arbor.
    Get a 2-3 inch piece of PVC pipe just large enough for the wheel on the arbor to fit into and put the plate over the end of the pipe with the wheel hanging down inside the pipe. Using the brass protector you made tap the arbor end lightly with the pinion against the plate. If you're worried about scarfing the plate with the pinion. you can cut a slot in a piece of sheet metal and slide it between the pinion and the plate.
    There will be damage to the brass slug, but that's what it's for. To absorb the damage.

    Putting it back on will need to small diameter pipes, each just large enough to go over the end of the arbor they are on. the rear pipe will be pushing against the wheel hub. Remember to leave the same amount of end shake you had when you started.
     
  11. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    Harry,
    did you make that tool for center arbor work?

    and is that a madmoiselle case i see the the background?
    victor
     
  12. Harry Hopkins

    Harry Hopkins Registered User
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    Hello again Victor, Nice to see you on the message board again.

    I did not make the anvil in the picture... I have a buddy that has a machine shop make it for me many years ago. Until then I had been using a modified crows foot for similar work. The anvil pictured is a very handy tool to have and I have found other uses for it as well. If you have any interest I will take some measurements and make a drawing for you.

    Yes you noticed a mademoiselle case in the background. It is an unfinished project from early spring of this year. Between the warmer weather and actual paying clock work it will probably remain unfinished until the snow blows.
     
  13. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    :-D
    I didn't realize I was missed.
    For the most part I had not much to say and my world tends to overrun my days
    in the spring and summer.

    I was thinking the tool might be a good project for me.
    I also thought it might be a for you to make some money from the design
    as I did think you probably designed it. (not a tool I had seen for sale, etc.)
    it seems a good solution.

    I have a memory of using a pair of 3/16 sq brass rails and a pair of steel plates
    resting on a machining vise. I can't remember what I used to drive the arbor.

    two crow's feet is a very good idea.

    remember I said I like mademoiselle clocks...

    I can't help you with the painted parts as those are where the value of the type seems to be.
    If you need other parts, I have some spare. you are good a adding sparkle if my memory serves.
    I hope we get to see your result.
     
  14. Harry Hopkins

    Harry Hopkins Registered User
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    Yes Victor the tool will be a good project for you. .. Here you go.. You will find it very useful on many clocks other than these too. I do not remember what material it is. I had a machinist friend make it as it is pretty big for my mill. I am guessing he used 1018 and then surface hardened but it's been a while and I just don't remember. Also there is a .250" hole drilled in the center of the bottom for long arbors.

    Yes I do remember that you like mademoiselle's. This is my first and only one and I also have the shelf with it. The paint is nearly perfect on it and I think it is complete but thanks for the offer and I will remember that when I lose a piece. Once I have it running and all shined up I will post a picture.
    image000000 (52).jpg
     
  15. manuelf

    manuelf Registered User

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    Es herramienta ya existe y se utilizaba mucho cuando se reparaban los relojes despertadores de todos tipos y para ese trabajo especificamente. Había unos relojes con píñón central de latón y se gastaban los dientes. La idea de los tubos de PVC es buena y se pueden colocar dos medias láminas debajo para reforzar. Hoy otras opciones.
     
  16. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    ^^ Translation by google:

    I'm still trying to figure something out...over time I'll get something.

    I haven't put the pinion back on. The clock is not running very strong with just the going train...putting on the motion works will likely stop the clock. So, I need to investigate the basic power.

    Kurt
     
  17. manuelf

    manuelf Registered User

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    Harry gracias por la foto de ese útil, es muy difícil o imposible encontrarlo en el mercado.
     
  18. tracerjack

    tracerjack Registered User
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    I'm one who doesn't remove the center arbor for cleaning. If I see an enlarged pivot hole or find the center arbor bent, then removal would come under repair. I've always thought it unnecessary for general cleaning, but now this has got me wondering.
     
  19. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    The first one of these clocks that I encountered, I didn't remove the captive pinion but cleaned everything else. The clock wouldn't run. I then took the front plate with the arbor still in the plate to a friend who removed it. I then burnished the plate bushing and polished the arbor pivots. After reassembly, the clock ran much better. So, in the future, I plan on complete disassembly.

    Kurt
     
  20. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    I've been struggling to find something that might work for me. I don't have access to serious machine tools so I have to try to find something that I can easily work with. This is something I've thought about. The picture shows two rectangular shaped tubes...left one is aluminum, the right one is steel. They are 4 inches high and 2 inches wide and 4 inches long...wall thickness is 0.125". My thought is that I would cut them in the middle of the 2 inch side, creating two mirror-image c-channels. I would then hold them tightly together with a clamp of some sort and drill a hole right on the cut line...maybe have the hole somewhere between 0.25 and 0.50" in diameter. I would then use this by releasing the clamp, sliding one of the plates I need to work on with the plate resting on the top of the channel and the gear still attached to the arbor on the inside of the channel. Carefully bring the two channels together and reclamp them. Then I could go through the process of driving the arbor down thus releasing the pinion.

    I like the idea of aluminum as it will be less aggressive to the brass plate, but the steel might be stronger.

    Any thoughts on how this might work?

    Thanks...Kurt

    Anvils.jpg
     
  21. Wayne A

    Wayne A Registered User

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    Kurt, looks like that could work although it may be easier to just cut a notch in one, slide clock plate in, support end of the rectangle tube with wood cut to snug fit. The PVC pipe idea looks easy as well, probably use a coupler not pipe so its ends would be square. I did not take the arbor apart on my 1000 day as well, it looked good so I left it.
     
  22. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Wayne, I had thought about just using a slot. But that leaves part of the plate unsupported. Probably in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter. I suppose I could try the slot on one end of one of my tubes. If I'm uncomfortable with that, I could go to the next step of sawing the tube in half and add the hole in the middle on the other end.

    Kurt
     
  23. Wayne A

    Wayne A Registered User

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    Kurt, as far as unsupported goes Harry's nice looking anvil leaves two areas unsupported so maybe one bit unsuported is not so bad. Only down side of cutting the tube in half is getting it lined up and perfectly flat in use. Speaking of flat I wonder if that tube's sides are perfectly flat anyway, would not be surprised if it sagged or had a crown.
     
  24. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Wayne -

    The aluminum tube looks to be pretty flat. However, the steel tube is not along the shorter side. I thought that if I cut it, I'd have to see if I could find a way to bend the flanges back to a 90 degree corner. As it stands now, the steel tube is unusable because of the "sagging".

    I don't see an issue with rejoining the halves together temporarily...I think. If the cut is good and dressed up well, they should mate easily. I could put some marks across the cut as a guide for "reassembly".

    Kurt
     
  25. marylander

    marylander Registered User

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    Kurt, I am not able to help you to take out the center arbor, but I would suggest that you not take it out. I have three 1000-day and four model 53 clocks. I did not take any one of their center arbor out for cleaning. I disassembled the movement and leaving the center arbor on the front plate and soak the plate in mineral oil while move the center arbor up and down left and right to clean. Then take the plate out of oil and dry with paper towel. Make sure the oil is sucked out of the center pivot. All my clocks are working find. This will avoid bending the center arbor accidentally.
    Ming
     
  26. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Ming -

    I appreciate that. However, on all "regular" clocks, I feel it's important to deal with the bushing and pivot for the center arbor. For one, it is typically a larger diameter pivot and any friction due to dirt, scoring is going to have a larger effect. Thus, for the Type 53/54 and a Huber Uhren clock, I would want to remove this captive pinion so as to get to that pivot and bushing. If after servicing, my clock wouldn't run, I'd have this thought that might be the problem. That said, for my experience, the center arbor is not necessarily the problem location...I seem to have limited successes sometimes and it might be for multiple reasons.

    Kurt
     
  27. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    Kurt,

    Why wouldn't you make/use a puller to remove the pinion?

    Eric
     
  28. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Eric -

    "Make a puller" is not something in my wheelhouse. I haven't seen a puller for this specific situation. The clock that I did work on recently had a spacing of 0.4mm between the pinion and the plate. So, the jaws of a puller are going to have to be thinner than that in order to get hold of the pinion to pull it off.

    Kurt
     
  29. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    Hi Kurt,

    With the type of rectangular tubing you have you're almost there. I'd go with a much smaller size, but all you would need to do is cut a slot on one side wide enough for the center arbor and thread in a screw into the opposite side. Slide the slotted end between the pinion and the plate and tighten the screw against the (protected) hand nut end of the arbor.

    Like this:
    Cheap and Simple Gear Puller

    It would be about as much work to make as the support you are planning and could be less damaging to the plate and pinion.

    Just a thought.

    Eric
     
  30. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Eric -

    The puller plate has to be on the order of 0.25-0.35mm thick. Is that going to be thick enough to not deform when pushing on the end of the arbor? Not to mention, the part of the puller that pushes on the arbor has to remain perfectly parallel with the arbor, otherwise there's the danger that the arbor will be bent.

    Kurt
     
  31. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    Perhaps I'm reading too much into this but, just for giggles, I popped this one off my spare movement using two common screwdrivers. No problem at all.

    Eric

    PA056514.JPG
     
  32. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Nice! And you were able to prevent damage to the plate? The only one I've done so far (mentioned in another thread) the pinion was tight virtually the whole way up the arbor. I was expected it to become essentially free after moving just a bit but I had to "fight it" a long way.

    Kurt
     
  33. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    I scratched the plate a little trying to measure the gap behind the pinion, not from prying it off. I checked it with a micrometer before I tried it. The center arbor on this one is tapered just a small amount, maybe 0.002" over the exposed length, so after about 1/8" it popped right off. Perhaps a light touch with some emery cloth will get the clearance you need so you don't have to drive it all the way.

    Eric
     
  34. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    I used automotive feeler gages to slid between the pinion and plate to get a reasonable estimate on the gap. It didn't seem to damage the plate.

    Kurt
     
  35. Wayne A

    Wayne A Registered User

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    When I saw that picture of the homemade puller I remembered I had this one made to remove gears from very small electric helicopter motors. It was a entry prize at a helicopter "fun-Fly" event. Never used it in years because my helicopters are larger than this tool was made for. Next Schatz I get I'll see if it works.

    20191005_211541[1].jpg
     

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