Schatz 400 day won't run

Discussion in '400-Day & Atmos' started by stushug, Nov 19, 2018.

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  1. stushug

    stushug Registered User

    Apr 19, 2009
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    Now that I've got the movement back together (thanks to Harry Hopkins), I can't get it to run. The train runs freely without the spring barrel installed, and I checked every pinion individually and they all spin freely. The tension spring was broken so I installed a new one using the diagram in Terwilliger's book. It's a brand new spring from Horolovar and it is the recommended size. The only way the anchor moves enough to let the escape wheel move is if the pendulum moves in an exaggerated rotation, and even at that it will eventually run on of momentum. Before I got the book, I did make the rookie mistake of adjusting the eccentric so I'm sure that is part of the problem (maybe all of it.) I posted a video of the escape wheel through the peep holes. Any help is appreciated.

    .
     
  2. Harry Hopkins

    Harry Hopkins Registered User
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    Nice video. To my eye the drops look good and that is what adjusting the eccentric would have affected. You say the train runs freely without the barrel installed and that each wheel spins freely individually.. that is a good start but the best test is to install the spring barrel and all the wheels without the anchor. With the movement sitting upright then use the key and wind the barrel one click at a time counting the clicks until the train spins freely. It is important to only start counting clicks when there is some actual pressure on the spring barrel. The train should spin after 2 to 4 clicks.. if it takes more clicks that 4 then there is unnecessary friction in the train. The most common problem is slightly bent pivots especially higher in the train.. look closely at all of them if the wheels don't want to spin easily. If all that is good a video showing the anchor pin position and the peep holes might be of some help also. One more thing for you to consider is the placement of the fork... The Repair Guide should only be used as a good starting point. I like to move it lower if the clock does not want to run. The higher the fork the more rotation that is required to unlock the escapement. Also be sure the anchor pin is not binding in the fork at the most extreme angle.. use a piece of paper as a feeler gauge to make sure the fork to anchor pin clearance is correct. Too much slop in the fork is a problem also.
     
  3. stushug

    stushug Registered User

    Apr 19, 2009
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    I'm glad the drops look good to someone else, I thought I had gotten them pretty close, but I'm no expert by any means. I'll start by checking the movement as you suggested. If that goes well, I'll try lowering the fork. What would be good increments to use for the lowering? 1mm or so at a time? Thanks, Harry!
     
  4. Harry Hopkins

    Harry Hopkins Registered User
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    Moving the fork 1 or 2 mm at a time would be sufficient. Keep in mind that after moving the fork you may need to adjust the beat again. The generally accepted best method of finding the sweet spot for the fork is to move it down until the escapement flutters then move it back up until it does not. If you continue to have problems a video from the back of the movement showing the anchor pin movement and also the pendulum rotation would be helpful.
     
  5. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    I think some of the teeth are bent and need to be pulled straight again. I don't see evidence of overswing after the first couple of turns. You might have to lower the fork a mm or so.
     
  6. stushug

    stushug Registered User

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    Shutterbug, you were right, I went through and checked all of the teeth and made sure they were straight.
    Harry, I checked the movement without the anchor like you said and got no movement until about 10 clicks. I found the hour wheel was slightly bent and was binding on the minute wheel. Straightened it and the movement spun on 1 click!
    You mentioned about using a piece of paper to check fork-anchor clearance. How tight should it be? I just re-read your post and noticed the part about the fluttering. I thought I had too much slop in the fork so I squeezed it closed a bit and the clock ran for about 10 minutes. Now I realize that it wasn't slop, it was fluttering. I will open the fork slightly until it flutters again then raise it. Would that be correct?
     
  7. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    The test with the paper is a one time thing. If a piece does not fit between the fork tine and the anchor pin, the tines need to be spread apart...but only enough to allow the paper to fit through.

    The fork movement is part of the testing that needs to be done. Ideally, the fork should be lowered until the escapement flutters, then move it up 1-2mm until the fluttering stops.

    Kurt
     
  8. Harry Hopkins

    Harry Hopkins Registered User
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    To adjust the fork clearance use a piece of paper... I tear a small strip of paper from my printer paper... and adjust the fork width so the paper will just slide between the anchor pin and one of the fork tines when the fork is at one of it's left or right positions.

    Once the fork to pin clearance is good then lower the fork on the suspension spring 1 or 2 mm at a time until the escapement flutters when releasing a tooth. Then raise the fork on the wire 1 or 2 mm at a time until the escapement no longer flutters.

    If you are unsure of what fluttering is... It is when the anchor moves back and forth on the escape wheel very rapidly... several times a second when the pendulum is near the end of it's rotation. Raising the fork will stop the escapement from the flutter.
     
  9. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    And just as a note, fluttering is normal when manually adjusting the time when the pendulum is in mid swing.
     
  10. stushug

    stushug Registered User

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    Hey guys,
    Thanks for all the help. Following your suggestions, I think I may have this baby running again. So far it's been running about 2 hours, which is much better than the 20 minutes I was getting yesterday. I think it is still slightly out of beat, but that shouldn't pose much problem. Here's a video of how she's running right now. I'll update as I go along. Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

     
  11. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    The anchor pin really moves quite far to the right as opposed to the left. Ideally, it should move evenly left and right relative to the straight up and down position. Could be the beat but could also be something associated with uneven pallets.

    With the beat set, you get the most power out of the escapement. Pay attention to the amount of over swing past each tick and tock. You want at least 25-30 degree of rotation past the tick-tock.

    Kurt
     
  12. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    To me, it looks like the anchor is a bit too deep.
     
  13. stushug

    stushug Registered User

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    It seems that while I've been working on this clock, the tension washer that goes behind the cannon pinion has grown legs and walked away. Where can I get a replacement?
     
  14. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    There are some posts around where people describe making them...outside my skill set. Chris at The Horolovar Company will probably have some...shipping will kill you for a single washer. You might check the website and order up some suspension springs or main springs for the future.

    The Horolovar Company Online Store. We are the 400 day clock people!

    Kurt
     
  15. Harry Hopkins

    Harry Hopkins Registered User
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    I can make you one... check your messages.
     
  16. Keith Conklin

    Keith Conklin Registered User
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    It seems that while I've been working on this clock, the tension washer that goes behind the cannon pinion has grown legs and walked away. Where can I get a replacement?
    I can highly recommend Harry Hopkins.
     
  17. stushug

    stushug Registered User

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    When I posted the video of the fork movement, someone on here noticed that the fork was moving more to one side than the other. I took out the anchor and noticed that the pin that interacts with the fork was bent. I guess I don't have to tell you what happened when I tried to straighten it. Anyway, I had someone close repair it, and now I can't get the clock to run at all. I have already adjusted the eccentric from one extreme to the other, with no good result. I have also worked on the fork, starting as low as I could go without touching the plate, and moving it up 1mm at a time. I'm probably trying to do too much at once, right. Where would be the first item to start? Also, I've been running it without the motion works installed just to be sure there was no added friction to take away any extra energy. What gets me is that before I broke the anchor pin, the clock was running, not perfectly but it was running.
     
  18. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    You've changed so much now that's it's hard to figure out where to start. As for moving the eccentric, it's been stated on this forum a number of times, that usually the eccentric is the last thing you want to change. Most of the time, the problem is somewhere else.

    As for the anchor and pin, if you put the anchor down so it's resting on the pallets, does the pin point exactly (or nearly) vertical? If not, bending the pin is not the thing to do but rather to adjust the pallets. In a perfect world, they should both be exposed the same amount...that gets the pin vertical if it is mounted square to the anchor.

    Others will have the steps to work towards getting the escapement back in shape. The basic requirements are that the drops need to be the same and the locks should not be too deep. The pallets and eccentric control these in specific situations.

    Good luck...Kurt
     
  19. Harry Hopkins

    Harry Hopkins Registered User
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    You probably should start over and check all the basic adjustments first (again). Since you have a new anchor pin check the fork to anchor pin clearance again, it is critical that it be about a papers width when fork is at either left or right position. The video on your post # 10 looks like you had the drops and locks pretty good at the time.. Try to adjust so drops are similar to that again. If you have not adjusted the pallet lengths, don't. Check to see if beat needs adjusted again.. Leave motion works off until you have it running. Posting another video would help us see what is causing your problem.
     
  20. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    The one critical item is the eccentric. If you have one of the many clocks where the guy on the power buffer really put his weight into it, you may see a place at the top of the eccentric where the buff was running in the adjustment slot and then encountered the plate, making a noticable groove in the brass. Start by putting the slot and that ablated area back in line.
    Moving the pallets in the anchor is the 2nd worst thing you ever want to do on these clocks. Play around with everything else before going there.
     
  21. stushug

    stushug Registered User

    Apr 19, 2009
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    Kurt,
    The original pin was bent, and it looked like someone had done trying to correct a problem. The new pin points vertically and square to the anchor now. I attached a picture of the anchor as it was for reference. As you'll see in the picture, the pallets are not the adjustable type. Good thing, or I might has tried to adjust them too! View attachment 507721

    20181112_115806.jpg
     
  22. stushug

    stushug Registered User

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    #22 stushug, Dec 19, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2018
    The pallets are non-adjustable, so luckily I didn't do anything to them. I will recheck the fork to anchor pin clearance again. I will post another video first chance I get.
    Edit:
    I just checked clearance and the fork was too tight, so I adjusted it so a piece of paper slides in with a very slight amount of drag. That's what you had mentioned in your earlier post, so I guess that is good. I still have the fork mounted very low, and now I'm getting flutter so I will start moving it up 1 mm at a time.
     
  23. stushug

    stushug Registered User

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    I'll give that a good look and see if there is a mark to align with. Thanks!
     
  24. stushug

    stushug Registered User

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    #24 stushug, Dec 19, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2018
    The clock ran for about 90 minutes, then it quit.
    Here's a new video of the pallets and the fork:
     
  25. tracerjack

    tracerjack Registered User
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    Okay, I know this isn't very scientific, but I have had several successes by just starting a movement again. Ninety minutes is a long time for your to have run, so something was right for that amount of time. I restart for at least five tries. My patience usually runs out about seven or eight. If it doesn't run then, I go back to the drawing board. My hypothesis as to why restarting has been successful is that these clocks have not run in so long, they just need all the gears to turn enough times to smooth things out. My idea may be completely wrong, but it doesn't hurt to restart.
     
  26. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    It doesn't look bad. The pallet postions look good and you have good overswing. Something else must be at fault.
     
  27. stushug

    stushug Registered User

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    I'm happy to report that the clock has been running since yesterday, I think the main problem was that I had the fork too tight around the pin. As soon as I readjusted it, I was able to get it back in beat and I seems ok for now.
     
  28. Harry Hopkins

    Harry Hopkins Registered User
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    Glad to hear you have it running. I watched the video and thought drops and locks were very good. The anchor pin is not balanced (more movement in one direction than the other) but as long as the clock has good overswing and continues to run I would not try to improve on it.
     
  29. stushug

    stushug Registered User

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    I must be getting pretty good at setting that eccentric;)
    As to the anchor pin not being balanced, what is the best way to correct that? (I'm not going to fool around with it now, since the clock is running.) I'm just asking because I love to learn, and I have a basic curiosity about how things work.
     
  30. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    I look to be corrected on this, but one way to correct for the anchor pin not moving evenly side to side is to adjust the pallets. Ideally, with the pallets equally exposed from the anchor, the pin should be pointing straight up. The pallets are curved and lie along a large circle. So dropping one side or raising the other will change the position of the anchor pin. That however requires a change in the eccentric as the relationship along the circle has changed. However, it would seem that if you move one pallet up and the other pallet down by exactly the same amount, no eccentric change would be needed as the relationship between the two pallets is the same.

    Some power is lost due to the misalignment. But as suggested, if the clock is running with good over swing, probably best to just leave it.

    Kurt
     
  31. Harry Hopkins

    Harry Hopkins Registered User
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    #31 Harry Hopkins, Dec 21, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2018
    An uncentered anchor pin can be caused by unequal pallet lengths but yours does not have adjustable pallets so I think we can throw that out. A good check is to remove your anchor from the clock and place it on a level surface. The pin should be perfectly perpendicular to the surface. (If you had adjustable pallets it is important that they be extended equally from the anchor body). I suggest using a pair of smooth jawed pliers and hold the pin just above the point where it is inserted into the body of the anchor and then bend until pointing straight up... this will help prevent breaking the pin off at the base.

    Edit: I just watched your most recent video again and now I think that the anchor pin might be closer to centered than I originally thought. It is possible that the video isn't perfectly square with the back of the movement and making the pin look a bit more offset than it actually is.
     
  32. stushug

    stushug Registered User

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    Thanks guys!
     

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