Schatz 1000 day clock runs for 15 minutes and stops

Discussion in '400-Day & Atmos' started by Derek Smith, Oct 12, 2017.

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  1. Derek Smith

    Derek Smith Registered User
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    Just finished repairing a schatz 1000 day clock, rectangular variety. Build date is 9/1956. New escape wheel, new 5th wheel. The rest were cleaned and picots burnished, except two pivots replaced. All bushing holes are in mint condition. My guess is someone let down the mainspring hard as some of the pivots were busted off.

    Anyway, after complete disassembly, ultrasonic cleaning, etc., burnishing pivots, broaching, pegging, etc, I reassembled. Also has new mainspring and new Horolovar 10B suspension. The jewels are also in mint condition.

    So, after hanging the torsion pendulum and turning it one full turn, I set the beat to within +\- 2% and let it run. Runs ok for about 15 minutes before the pendulum doesn't travel far enough to engage the escape wheel. The fork has a hair of a gap to avoid binding the palate pin. Nothing seems amiss but it just doesn't seem to be pushing hard enough to keep the pendulum spinning.

    I oiled only the pivots and a slight wetting of the palette. Nothing on the fork and nothing on the jewels.

    Ideas? Suggestions?

    Thanks in advance!
     
  2. JTD

    JTD Registered User
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    This might do better in the 400 day clock section. Perhaps a moderator can move it for you.

    JTD
     
  3. Harry Hopkins

    Harry Hopkins Registered User
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    Hi Derek, Welcome to the message board. My first suggestion would be to check the end shake of all of the wheels, especially the new ones and the ones that were re-pivoted. If that is all good then check that the train runs freely by assembling without the anchor and winding the mainspring one click at a time until the train runs freely. In a 400 day clock the wheels should start spinning between 2 and 4 clicks. Any more than that would indicate unnecessary friction somewhere in the train. Since this is a 1000 day clock my guess is that it might take an extra click or two to get the train moving due to the extra wheel. If your clock fails the 'click test' then look for bent pivots.... even very slightly bent pivots. If necessary you can install just 2 wheels at a time and spin them by hand to see if you can find where you are losing power. Since there was some event that caused a couple of the pivots to break off I also suggest you check each wheel with magnification for bent teeth. I wouldn't be surprised if there might also be a slightly bent arbor somewhere in the train.
     
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  4. shutterbug

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    #4 shutterbug, Oct 12, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
    I'll move this to the torsion clock forum :)

    You didn't mention how much over swing you are getting. Torsion clocks must have good over swing in order to run. I'd set it to at least 10° of over swing and see how it works. If it doesn't have enough, lower the fork slightly.
     
  5. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    I've been getting into my new-to-me lathe so I can polish/burnish pivots. One thing that you should also think about is the winding arbor and the spring barrel. Since this is where all your power is coming from, the point where the barrel touches the winding arbor should be polished, both on the arbor and the barrel and its cover.

    I'm still becoming more experienced with these clocks, but I can tell right away when there's not enough power to the escape wheel. The teeth should really "snap" on the pallet with a tooth is released. If there isn't a good movement there, then the power is not making it up to the escape wheel. That "snap" along with the proper placement of the fork should help with adding a good impulse to the suspension spring.

    Kurt
     
  6. marylander

    marylander Registered User

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    Hi. Derek, The 1000-day clock has a eccentric pivot hole as part of suspension spring bracket. So, you need to pay particular attention to the mounting of the suspension bracket. You have to adjust the pivot position while mounting the bracket so that the escapement is functioning correctly. Normally, one of the screw hole on the bracket is elongated which is for adjusting. You fasten one side and move up and down on the other side of bracket to adjust the lock and unlock of the anchor pallets on escape wheel.
    Ming.
     
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  7. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    I haven't worked on one of these clocks, but it does sound like a particularly elusive tight or bent pivot. One of the complications is that the clock plates have a tendency to flex slightly due to the torque of the wound mainspring, which means that wheels which all seem to spin merrily will be stiff after the clock is fully assembled and wound.

    The solution is to allow more side play in the pivots than you're comfortable with. This is something I'm still struggling with, for sloppy pivots always seem to represent sloth and carelessness. But, as a number of clock books point out, "if it rattles, it will run," and since we're dealing with primitive plain bearings here it's generally best to limit one's rigor in the matter of pivot clearance.

    I'm also exceptionally adept at bending pivots during assembly, so that's something else to look for. Good luck with it and tell us how it comes out.

    M Kinsler
     
  8. MartinM

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    #8 MartinM, Oct 12, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
    All of the suggestions, above are great, starting with Harry's. The mainspring in this one is kind of a beast and can bend pivots well up the train if the click lets go. You probably already did, but I'd make sure to check the trueness of all of the wheels.
    It sounds like you're trying to use an electronic device to set the beat.
    That doesn't always work so well on these. If you don't get the drops even, the EW acquires a bit of a halted movement that can be interpreted incorrectly by said device. You should lower the fork until there is a flutter and then raise it a fraction of a millimeter above that point, This will make that halting escape action more pronounced, but will give the clock maximum power to put into the pendulum.
    Once you're sure you have a freely moving EW, install the anchor and adjust for equal drops and locks, using the eccentric in the suspension hanger and then set the beat strictly by measuring the overswing in each direction.
     
  9. doc_fields

    doc_fields Registered User

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    One thing that no one has mentioned, and yet is very, very important, and that is to properly set the beat according to the Horolovar 400 day clock book. I have repaired a few hundred of these, and unless you carefully set this, it will run about 15 minutes and then stop.

    I have the Microset, and love it, but I don't use it to set the beat, but do it manually by sound and rotation of the pendulum like in the book. I can't explain it here, but if you have the book, check it out. FWIW.........................doc
     
  10. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    I think Chris Nimon (who, along with Heidi the dog and a couple of other guys, runs Horolovar over on West Fair Av here in Lancaster) has instructions for beat-setting on the Horolovar website. He's helped me a lot, and is always generous with his time and expertise.

    M Kinsler
     
  11. Harry Hopkins

    Harry Hopkins Registered User
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    The OP mentioned he had the beat set within 2 degrees.. that's pretty close. I don't think thats his problem.
     
  12. Derek Smith

    Derek Smith Registered User
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    Sorry, been busy with work and life other than clocks :-(

    The beat is dang close, I get a good solid and strong snap of the escape wheel teeth, and a good starting spin on the pendulum of about 340 degrees in each direction. Also, without the verge installed, if I wind the mainspring even a couple clicks on the ratchet, everything spins quite nicely. Even without spring power, I can install the minute hand and it will fall to 6 o'clock and spin everything beautifully.

    The fork did come preinstalled on the suspension and rides at the very top of the pin. I wondered about this but figured since it came directly from horolovar, it must be correct, right? I was thinking it would give more thrust to the suspension if the fork rode lower on the pin, but a shorter rotation. Is this where the balancing act comes into play?

    Another thing I've noticed is that the fork tends to be a bit jerky in its movement. I know they tend to do this a bit anyway, but it just seems like more than usual. I think I'll remove the verge and see how it spins on its own.

    Other thoughts?
     
  13. Derek Smith

    Derek Smith Registered User
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    Thanks for the suggestion. All the pivots are perfect in size and spin true on the lathe. No end shake, no binding, and all bushings are just beautiful. There's just about 5 or 6 degrees tilt when inserted into the bushings. Also, everything spins beautifully under near zero power when the palette is not engaged.
     
  14. Derek Smith

    Derek Smith Registered User
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    One more thing to note, I'm not convinced the pallet lock faces are adequately polished. If I observe the escape teeth sliding on the faces, they don't seem very smooth. Or maybe that's just because of the fork jerk? Ideas, comments?
     
  15. Derek Smith

    Derek Smith Registered User
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    I did notice the eccentric holes in the mounting. I adjusted to midpoint in level. But now that you mention it, that would make a lot of sense. I'll have to test moving it a bit to even out the locking and unlocking if necessary, and see if that helps. I can easily see how this would be directly involved in power making it to the suspension wire.
     
  16. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    I have two of these clocks currently running. The fork tines are about 2mm below the tip of the anchor pin. That said, the fork is typically lowered until the clock flutters, then the fork is raised about 1mm or a bit more above that. On my clocks, I never did any of that...I received them from an estate sale, I checked them out for the basic things, set the beat, and they have been running quite well. I'm leaving well enough alone at this point.

    I'm not sure I understand your rotation description. 340 degrees each direction? Do you mean when the rotation is completed in one direction, it then rotates 340 back the other way and stops? I hope you're not describing a total rotation of 340+340=680 degrees. My clocks have a total rotation of about 270 and the other is about 360.

    As for end shake....you want end shake. Each arbor should move back and forth between the plates when moved by a finger tip.

    I can't help with the eccentric. I leave this alone as well as the pallets unless it's obvious something is wrong...even then I'm not inclined to mess with them. If the clock doesn't run, the eccentric/pallets is the very last thing I would consider investigating.

    Kurt
     
  17. Derek Smith

    Derek Smith Registered User
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    Kurt,

    I start out with a full rotation in one direction. It will settle over a period of about 5 minutes to approximately 280 degrees total rotation from one stop to the other.

    The end shake is small, perhaps a mm total, so no binding, but not sloppy either.
     
  18. Derek Smith

    Derek Smith Registered User
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    Ok, I figured it out. And I feel really stupid and immensely embarrassed!

    Since I had to repivot the anchor/pallet arbor, I removed the anchor and the pin bushing, turned the arbor on the lathe to repivot, and staked the anchor and pin bushing back the way they came off. It's obvious at this point that someone else had attempted to work on this movement long before I ever got to it. The anchor was backward. Didn't notice it until I used a loupe to observe the locking, etc. Face palming immediately followed and I corrected the problem. It's been running for nearly an hour now and seems to be healthy.

    Now to let it run for a day or so and then adjust the speed.

    Thanks to all for the suggestions. They certainly set me on the right track.

    If I remember, I'll post before/after pictures once I'm done.
     
  19. Harry Hopkins

    Harry Hopkins Registered User
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    Glad you figured out the problem. That is a new one (for me)... I have not seen an anchor installed backwards on the arbor.

    I usually build my own suspension units but I would assume the position of the fork on a complete unit from Horolovar would be very close but as Kurt mentioned if you want to find the sweet spot for your clock then lower the fork until you get some flutter then raise it just enough so there is no flutter. Some forks seem to have more jerk than others but yes that is pretty normal. If there is any binding between the anchor pin and the fork when fork is at extreme left or right position will cause it to jerk some also.
     
  20. Derek Smith

    Derek Smith Registered User
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    Still running and fully reassembled. Just working on getting it regulated which takes a long time for these clocks.

    Some pics as promised. Some are "as received" for comparison.

    So long, and thanks for all the fish...

    View attachment 358811 ezgif-4-765abdfd7a.gif IMG_2882.JPG IMG_2984.JPG IMG_2985.JPG IMG_0623.JPG IMG_0626.JPG IMG_0629.JPG IMG_0628.JPG
     
  21. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    Not so fast. How did you restore/clean/replate/polish that case?

    And I suppose you realize that when you post pictures like these (and they're very good) everyone primarily looks at your workbench and your tools (also very good).

    M Kinsler
     
  22. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Anchor on backward!! That's a strange one, all right - not a likely thing to spot. You caught something the last guy missed, and that no doubt caused him great anxiety until he finally gave up :thumb:
     
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  23. Derek Smith

    Derek Smith Registered User
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    The case is solid brass, so no replating required. I use an ultrasonic cleaner for both clock parts and gun cleaning. For brass, is use L&R clock cleaning concentrate. You can find it at Merritt's and other popular clock parts and tool suppliers. See the chart at
    http://www.lrultrasonics.com/pdf/Jwlry.WatchSolutionsGuide.pdf

    So, basically, I take everything completely to bit, and ultrasonic clean in small batches so I get minimal part to part contact while in process. L&R recommends using their rinsing solution afterward, but I just soak in RO (reverse osmosis) filtered water for a few minutes before drying. I also always use RO water in the US cleaner since having any kind of minerals in the water will cause cavitation to collapse and cleaning will be non-effective.

    After everything comes out of the US and dried, I use Weiman's brass polish, rinse it again, dry it, and avoid skin contact until after it's been re-lacquered with Mohawk lacquer for brass.

    For really shiny or mirror finish parts, I buff them with a cotton buffing wheel using various rouge grades until I'm satisfied with the finish. In this particular case, I never got it perfect because it was so damaged and way too many deep scratch marks. I got as good as I could without removing so much metal it would look even worse.

    Thanks for the compliment of the bench and tools. There's a lot you don't see, of course, and I still lack a milling head for the lathe. Gotta sell a few clocks to afford that. I mostly buy busted stuff off eBay and/or facebook marketplace. Sometimes I get a good deal elsewhere. Flea markets, yard sales, estate sales, etc can sometimes be nice.

    -Derek
     
  24. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User
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    On this particular case and most of the KundO oval bases, I find that a new scotchbrite pad used in long even strokes makes the brushed finish look like new.
     
  25. Derek Smith

    Derek Smith Registered User
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    Martin,

    The brushed surfaces are fine. It's the two mirror finish surfaces that I'm not happy with. One is the riser on the base, the other is the brass plate on the rear if the case cover. Both are supposed to be highly polished to a mirror finish. I got most of the scratches out, but not all of them, by buffing with tirpoli, then white, then jeweler's rouge, and even with a few minutes on blue in the end. I stopped because I was starting to remove too much metal and didn't want to damage the cross-hatch pattern stamped into each plate. At least it's a marked improvement over the condition as received.

    I nice resource for buffing info is PJTool. While I don't buy from them, their site does have some nice tips. How to Polish Metal with Polishing Compounds and Buffing Wheels

    -Derek
     
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