• Member Voting Now through June 6. Check Your Email for a Link to the Online Ballot. The Ballot Contains Links to Each Proposed Amendment to Bylaws and Articles of Incorporation.

Sam Hammond and A. P.Walsh

Tom McIntyre

Technical Admin
Staff member
NAWCC Star Fellow
NAWCC Ruby Member
Sponsor
Golden Circle
Aug 24, 2000
84,737
2,385
113
85
Boston
awco.org
Country
Region
I have been asked to do a presentation for the Mass Watchmakers Chapter of the AWCI later this month and decided to spend some time studying this collection of watches.

Samuel Hammond was called the Watchmaker to Wall Street and seems to have specialized in the high end precision watches from Walsh and occasionally other makers.

A. P. Walsh was a famous maker who was called the "Prince of Chronometer Makers" for his skills in adjustment and his skill with escapements in general and especially the Duo-in-Uno hairspring.

I am also playing with our media facility here on the Message Board. I have loaded many pictures of the watches that I will be talking about into an album. When you click on the pictures displayed in the post it will show the image as a link to the album. Double clicking on the picture will open the album for browsing.

If anyone has some special insights into these watches, please speak up and I will certainly give you credit in the upcoming talk.

Sold by Samuel Hammond, New York.

Click picture for Tear down images of Walsh Duo-in-Uno No. 212. Images courtesy of John Wilson.

Watch Collection A. P. Walsh and Sam Hammond
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Keith R...

Tom McIntyre

Technical Admin
Staff member
NAWCC Star Fellow
NAWCC Ruby Member
Sponsor
Golden Circle
Aug 24, 2000
84,737
2,385
113
85
Boston
awco.org
Country
Region
Much of the beauty of Walsh's work can only really be seen by taking the watch apart. This album contains the pictures from the tear down of Walsh No. 281 a Duo-in-Uno pocket chronometer. Tear down and photographs are courtesy of John Wilson.
 
Last edited:

Dr. Jon

Moderator
NAWCC Member
Dec 14, 2001
7,050
1,373
113
New Hampshire
Country
Region
Nice group. I prefer the Walsh keyless fusee levers to the detent chronometers:

1) While individual results may vary, Parkinson and Frodsham submitted one of each to the open 1876 Geneva trials. The lever got a first prize the detent a second prize. BOth had duo in uno balance springs.

2) The Walsh levers are very unusual, at least my example has a radial impulse pin, while his detents are lovely but not that unusual. (If you don't have a shot of the Walsh lever and roller, I can provide one for you.

By 1876 Swiss trials had shown that the detent escapement had no real benefit over a well set up lever, certainly not enough to justify its cost and delicate nature. I suspect Walsh and Hammond knew this.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Keith R...

gmorse

NAWCC Member
Jan 7, 2011
13,712
2,882
113
Breamore, Hampshire, UK
Country
Region
Hi Tom,

Very fine work; do you happen to know who made the frame? It's very similar to Joseph Preston's work from what I can see.

Regards,

Graham
 
  • Like
Reactions: Keith R...

John Matthews

NAWCC Member
Sep 22, 2015
3,703
1,829
113
France
Country
Region
Tom - thank you for posting the album, excellent photographs of the movement

I notice you posted another example here with serial number 311 in a 18K Chester case which appears to be hallmarked for 1858/59 and has Walsh's address as 5 George Street. I cannot definitely identify the case maker, which appears to be WR in an oval cameo, but it may be William Randles of Hill Street Coventry. Priestley lists a registration of this mark for him a little later in 1877. According to Mercer, Walsh was at that address from1865 to 1893 so I am not sure how that ties in and whether it throws into question my interpretation of the hallmark, or whether the hallmark date corresponding to the date of the movement.

Do you think the serial numbers are those of Walsh? - which seems likely to me, as it is his name on both movements.

If that is the case and the numbers are chronological and we can date 311 as 1858/59, both assumptions, this would mean #281 would be earlier than 1858 - does this agree with your assessment.

John
 

SKennedy

Registered User
Jan 5, 2017
300
201
43
Country
I prefer the Walsh keyless fusee levers to the detent chronometers:

2) The Walsh levers are very unusual, at least my example has a radial impulse pin, ...
One of those crossed my bench last year. The escape wheel teeth were also more in line with the Swiss lever escapement, not traditional English lever pointed teeth. The frame was marked JP.

Seth.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Keith R...

Dr. Jon

Moderator
NAWCC Member
Dec 14, 2001
7,050
1,373
113
New Hampshire
Country
Region
Mine is Sn 370 and the case marks are for 1871 and in my experience Hammond used the makers serial numbers rather than his own set. Min has a typical English ratchet tooth escape wheel, furthering my argument that Walsh's levers vary a lot.
 

Omexa

NAWCC Member
Feb 28, 2010
4,991
647
113
Darwin, Australia
Country
Region
Hi, while we have the experts here, can you tell me anything about this escapement? Other than weight missing. Regards Ray

P1020911.JPG
 

Tom McIntyre

Technical Admin
Staff member
NAWCC Star Fellow
NAWCC Ruby Member
Sponsor
Golden Circle
Aug 24, 2000
84,737
2,385
113
85
Boston
awco.org
Country
Region
I notice you posted another example here with serial number 311 in a 18K Chester case which appears to be hallmarked for 1858/59 and has Walsh's address as 5 George Street.
I have a hard time understanding that watch and it really needs to be torn down and examined. I am sure it was originally a keywind and was converted to stem wind with an unusual setting arrangement. It functions a bit like Kullberg's case operated button setting where closing the case cover moves the setting mechanism to the disengaged position. To wind it the bezel is opened which allows the winding to engage. To set the hands the lever is pushed in to engage the setting.

I was very surprised to see a Chester mark on a Walsh watch and suspected it had been recased, but it shows a great deal of work and I have no firm conclusions.

Here are a few more pictures of the mysterious No. 311.
WindSet.jpg Dial.jpg Front.jpg Movement.jpg CaseMark.jpg
 

John Matthews

NAWCC Member
Sep 22, 2015
3,703
1,829
113
France
Country
Region
Hi Tom,

I have just spent an hour searching the net for other examples of A P Walsh's movements - to be honest the first time I have looked at his work. For what it is worth, I think you are right #311 has been re-cased. Given the address and a comparison with the other examples I have found, I am fairly confident that the movement was later than 1858 (the date of the Chester mark - if it is genuine) Taken with Dr Jon's example I think the movement was made ~1868. In my limited search, have not been able to find a movement in a unambiguous hallmarked case with a lower serial number. There are a number of examples that can be confidently dated with serial numbers starting with #1986 (1873) the latest i found #2079 (1881) The English Watch by T C Cuss has a description of #2017 (1875).

John
 

gmorse

NAWCC Member
Jan 7, 2011
13,712
2,882
113
Breamore, Hampshire, UK
Country
Region
Hi Ray,

...can you tell me anything about this escapement?
If the slot in the roller had parallel sides and was quite narrow, I'd say it was a Savage with the very rare trapezoidal jewel, but since the edges are chamfered it couldn't work as that, so I think it's a slightly less rare variant on the 'two-pin' English lever. If you come across the lever that goes with it, that may tell us more.

Regards,

Graham
 

Dr. Jon

Moderator
NAWCC Member
Dec 14, 2001
7,050
1,373
113
New Hampshire
Country
Region
I suspect Tom's 311 had a new movement placed in an older case. It was not so much recased but the case was "re-movemented". The case is unusual in two ways:

1) The case is secured in the dial side. My #370 is more typical with the case secured on the cuvette side
2) The serial number is not on engraved on the case, again my #370 has the number engraved on the case.

The Swiss usually placed of the case screw on the dial side so it is possible the the work was done there.

To Omexa's question, my guess is table roller. For it to be a Savage with a wide impulse jewel the notch would have right angle corners to teh pin on the lever can impulse there. Also it appears that the stud is not on the balance cock which suggests pre 1840 which is before wide impulse jeweled Savage escapements were being tried. HUtton patented his version in 1846. A picture of the lever would help ID the escapement,
 

Tom McIntyre

Technical Admin
Staff member
NAWCC Star Fellow
NAWCC Ruby Member
Sponsor
Golden Circle
Aug 24, 2000
84,737
2,385
113
85
Boston
awco.org
Country
Region
On 311, the more significant question I had is the conversion to stem wind and the setting arrangement. This watch is currently being serviced and I will get a good set of under dial images during that work.

One of the real giveaways for the recase is that the case had a movement mounted with a joint under the pendant at one time. It now has the case screw in the pillar plate near the balance locking on the front of the case body.
 

Tom McIntyre

Technical Admin
Staff member
NAWCC Star Fellow
NAWCC Ruby Member
Sponsor
Golden Circle
Aug 24, 2000
84,737
2,385
113
85
Boston
awco.org
Country
Region
On the watches in this collection with original hallmarks, I decided to look up the dates and sponsor information. That worked pretty well for a few and then I got to the keywind chronometer No. 200. I thought this watch was surely in its original case from the look of it, but the marks are at best weird and may just simply be faked. On the other hand I am pretty sure the quality is correctly 18K just from handling it. I noticed I did not have very good pictures of the marks, so I took a few more. Can anyone help with insights into the marking.

 

John Matthews

NAWCC Member
Sep 22, 2015
3,703
1,829
113
France
Country
Region
Tom - I believe these marks to be an attempt to imitate English hallmarks. They are incomplete and the date letters appear to be attempting to poorly imitate the London cycle from 1836/37 to 1855/56 or given those on #311, the Chester cycle of 1839/40 to 1863/64.

Any further photographs of the watch?

John
 

Keith R...

NAWCC Member
Nov 27, 2012
5,766
2,529
113
South
Country
Region
Tom, I'm glad John chimed in. But it sure reminds me of my American case makers
trying to make it look English, in some small way.

Keith R...
 

gmorse

NAWCC Member
Jan 7, 2011
13,712
2,882
113
Breamore, Hampshire, UK
Country
Region
Hi Tom,

If I turn the image the right way up, the mark is a 'D' in an Old English font, an approximation to the London date letter for 1839/40, but it certainly isn't the real thing.

Regards,

Graham
 

John Matthews

NAWCC Member
Sep 22, 2015
3,703
1,829
113
France
Country
Region
Can anyone post photographs of a A P Walsh spring detent made for S Hammond & Co. in an English gold case with hallmarks that are unambiguous and show a date consistent with the serial number and address (if signed by Walsh)?

I am struggling to find one.

Serial number #2017 signed A P Walsh, London, as sold at auction by Sotherby's and featured in The English Watch p.411, is dated 1875. This watch, with good provenance having been sold to a notable Derbyshire family, appears to be one of the very few examples I can find that is entirely consistent.

PS - Dr Jon - I think #2017 has the same safety winding system as your #370

John
 

Tom McIntyre

Technical Admin
Staff member
NAWCC Star Fellow
NAWCC Ruby Member
Sponsor
Golden Circle
Aug 24, 2000
84,737
2,385
113
85
Boston
awco.org
Country
Region
full.jpg I believe Walsh and Hammond did business for quite a while. Possibly for nearly 50 years. B would be 1877/1878

This watch must be from near the end of the relationship given the number and the marks. It is a lever rather than a chronometer, but the marks seem complete.

full.jpg This chronometer is in a a silver case but the marks are complete. The S is most likely 1913/14 but it could be 1893/94. The shield is more appropriate for the later date. I don't think it is possible to distinguish a lower case s and an upper case S in that font.

Both watches are in the album I posted A. P. Walsh and Sam Hammond | NAWCC Message Board.
 
Last edited:

Tom McIntyre

Technical Admin
Staff member
NAWCC Star Fellow
NAWCC Ruby Member
Sponsor
Golden Circle
Aug 24, 2000
84,737
2,385
113
85
Boston
awco.org
Country
Region
If a case were made of 18K gold by a London maker and he did not mark it or have it or take it to the assay office, would he be punished? There was clearly an expense of both labor and fees to do this, so if the customer did not want it, then it probably happened.

I can imagine a staunch Republican Wall Street broker not wanting any "royals" on his watch.

full.jpg full.jpg Of course it is my watch and I am biased, but the date letter looks most like the appropriate 1855/56 U to me. The leftward curve of the left side line seems distinctive. I don't see anything very American about the case although the double jointed back would be unusual for the date on an English watch.
 
Last edited:

gmorse

NAWCC Member
Jan 7, 2011
13,712
2,882
113
Breamore, Hampshire, UK
Country
Region
Hi Tom,

...If a case were made of 18K gold by a London maker and he did not mark it or have it or take it to the assay office, would he be punished? There was clearly an expense of both labor and fees to do this, so if the customer did not want it, then it probably happened...
Any reputable case maker, (and this is clearly a fine case), would be very reluctant to risk his reputation in the trade and his standing in the Goldsmiths and/or Clockmakers Companies to do anything like this. Since English hallmarks are enshrined in statute, I think he could also be prosecuted if it was discovered.

I still think it's a 'D' in Old English . . .

Regards,

Graham
 

Tom McIntyre

Technical Admin
Staff member
NAWCC Star Fellow
NAWCC Ruby Member
Sponsor
Golden Circle
Aug 24, 2000
84,737
2,385
113
85
Boston
awco.org
Country
Region
4006ACC2-BB96-4A69-9AE9-BEB7F6234726.jpeg I own a watch with a case made by Martin Matthews for Cedric Jagger with no hallmarks at all. The explanation I was given was that neither of them wanted to pay the fee. I do not think the practice was as rare as you might think when the item was purchased for export. With no sponsor mark, there is no way to tell who did the deed. I also have a silver case by Martin that he punched with his mark, but did not have assayed.

The statute prohibitions were against false marking.

I agree it would be really odd behavior for as early as the 1850's. Please take another look at the curve on the left and compare it with the D and the U in your new copy of 1670 to 1970. I think it could be either T or U, but the D has a clear vertical line with no curve.

Were case makers allowed to have duplicate date punches? Or, were all date stamps done at the registrar.
 
Last edited:

John Matthews

NAWCC Member
Sep 22, 2015
3,703
1,829
113
France
Country
Region
Tom - thank you for your photographs and the very comprehensive album that you have produced - very helpful

The S is most likely 1913/14
I agree with the 1913/14 date for this case. I believe the pendant has a hallmark for Birmingham 1922/23, but I cannot identify the maker. Only the Birmingham & Chester offices used 'x' at that time, the font does not look like Chester, but if this is because the detail has been lost, 'x' was used for 1823/24, so it makes little difference.

The previous example has a clear Edward Matthews maker's mark which was used from 15 May 1876 through to the early part of the C20th. and that would appear to fit with the date letter 'B for 1877/78 - my only concern is that the shape of the date punch is not as shown in Bradbury or Priestley - I don't have an example in gold but this is what it looks like in silver for that cycle [my example is for1880/81].

upload_2018-9-19_18-37-49.png

John
 

John Matthews

NAWCC Member
Sep 22, 2015
3,703
1,829
113
France
Country
Region
I agree it would be really odd behavior for as early as the 1850's. Please take another look at the curve on the left and compare it with the D and the U in your new copy of 1670 to 1970. I think it could be either T or U, but the D has a clear vertical line with no curve.
Tom I honestly do not believe that this date letter, taken with the shape of the punch, is genuine, sorry ...

upload_2018-9-19_18-58-12.png

vs

upload_2018-9-19_18-58-49.png


John
 

gmorse

NAWCC Member
Jan 7, 2011
13,712
2,882
113
Breamore, Hampshire, UK
Country
Region
Hi Tom,

Given that we're fairly sure these are not genuine English marks, (why would an English maker punch even a date letter if he was intending to avoid the formal hallmarking processes?), the discrepancies from the recorded date letter aren't surprising. I think John's simple inversion shows it for what it is.

Regards,

Graham
 

Tom McIntyre

Technical Admin
Staff member
NAWCC Star Fellow
NAWCC Ruby Member
Sponsor
Golden Circle
Aug 24, 2000
84,737
2,385
113
85
Boston
awco.org
Country
Region
When examined with a loupe, the mark shows the appearance of a rather good engraving rather than a punch mark. It is possible that the case was originally unmarked, but a prior owner and possibly even Hammond wanted it to have an "appropriate" date letter. The 18 mark has the same questions about it. So for now, they are to me, accurate, but not authentic. :)

We will need to see what shows up on other examples in the 200 serial number range for dates.
 

gmorse

NAWCC Member
Jan 7, 2011
13,712
2,882
113
Breamore, Hampshire, UK
Country
Region
Hi Tom,

...I don't think it is possible to distinguish a lower case s and an upper case S in that font...
The 1876 upper-case series, including the 'S' for 1893, has sharp serifs, whereas the 's' in the 1896 lower-case series has more rounded, globular serifs. The 'C's are similarly differentiated. Of course, this detail is all very well provided the mark isn't too rubbed.

Regards,

Graham
 

Tom McIntyre

Technical Admin
Staff member
NAWCC Star Fellow
NAWCC Ruby Member
Sponsor
Golden Circle
Aug 24, 2000
84,737
2,385
113
85
Boston
awco.org
Country
Region
Thank you! I see it now. I do not see all that well anyway and that is an easy one for me to overlook.
 

Tom McIntyre

Technical Admin
Staff member
NAWCC Star Fellow
NAWCC Ruby Member
Sponsor
Golden Circle
Aug 24, 2000
84,737
2,385
113
85
Boston
awco.org
Country
Region
Recent auctions
1986 1873/74 Henry Webb A.P. Walsh. An 18K gold openface keyless and keywound chronometer watch with power reserve , SIGNED A.P. WALSH, LONDON, NO. 1986, CASE STAMPED HW FOR HENRY WEBB AND WITH LONDON DATE LETTER FOR 1873/74
197 1850/51 (case ATO(2) f 1961/62) A.P. Walsh London Very Rare & Fine Gold Pocket Chronometer | Lot #58147 | Heritage Auctions
2017 1874/75 Henry Webb http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions.../2016/john-harrison-enduring-discovery-l16055

The above three listings were found by a Google search for Arthur Paul Walsh. I was hopeful when 197 was described as being in its original case, but the sponsor is ATO in the cut corner rectangle (2) and the date letter is a slender lower case f for 1961/62. The mark would be for Albert Thomas Oliver, but I do not think he was alive in 1961. It is possible his punch was still in use. The later Oliver cases have the oval punch (3) for Albert Thomas Oliver, Jr.
 

John Matthews

NAWCC Member
Sep 22, 2015
3,703
1,829
113
France
Country
Region
. I was hopeful when 197 was described as being in its original case, but the sponsor is ATO in the cut corner rectangle (2) and the date letter is a slender lower case f for 1961/62
Hi Tom - I had already looked at this example and rejected the 1861/62 hallmarks as definitely fake.

I checked them against an 1861/62 hallmark in my photographic collection and they were not correct. There is a silver case from London on the forum here - if you compare the hallmarks with those of #197 you will see that they are a poor imitation.

John
 

gmorse

NAWCC Member
Jan 7, 2011
13,712
2,882
113
Breamore, Hampshire, UK
Country
Region
Hi Tom,

...The mark would be for Albert Thomas Oliver, but I do not think he was alive in 1961. It is possible his punch was still in use...
Albert Thomas Oliver died in 1949, and his mark, first registered in 1903, was ATO in an oval cartouche. His son Dick, (Richard James Oliver II), used the same mark as his father, of ATO in an oval. Dick died in 1989.

Regards,

Graham
 

John Matthews

NAWCC Member
Sep 22, 2015
3,703
1,829
113
France
Country
Region
rejected the 1861/62 hallmarks
Tom - my apology, I rushed in with a comparison with 1861, rather than 1961.

Are you working on the assumption that this, being one of the lowest serial numbers with the raised barrel cover, had a bespoke gold case made in London by the son in 1916/7?

John
 

John Matthews

NAWCC Member
Sep 22, 2015
3,703
1,829
113
France
Country
Region
opps - I'm clearly having a bad day! Try 1961. Apologies.

Clearly one half of the brain was still engaged in the research of an Admiralty purchase in 1916. Not as good at multitasking in my 70's as I was in earlier life....

John
 

Tom McIntyre

Technical Admin
Staff member
NAWCC Star Fellow
NAWCC Ruby Member
Sponsor
Golden Circle
Aug 24, 2000
84,737
2,385
113
85
Boston
awco.org
Country
Region
Hi Tom,



Albert Thomas Oliver died in 1949, and his mark, first registered in 1903, was ATO in an oval cartouche. His son Dick, (Richard James Oliver II), used the same mark as his father, of ATO in an oval. Dick died in 1989.

Regards,

Graham
I was quoting from the new Priestly book. I am pretty sure I quoted correctly the listing is on page 170. Gold & Silver Worker 31 Wynyatt Street EC1. 31 May 1933 Reg-23 p-166 1 punch.

My presumption is that someone in the family used that punch in 1961/62 since the evidence in the images is pretty clear.
 

gmorse

NAWCC Member
Jan 7, 2011
13,712
2,882
113
Breamore, Hampshire, UK
Country
Region
Hi Tom,

...My presumption is that someone in the family used that punch in 1961/62 since the evidence in the images is pretty clear...
Yes indeed, Philip had revised the registry entries for the Olivers but not with the extra registration in the Oliver Family history on pages 347-348. Perhaps it's linked to Emily Maud Oliver, (relationship apparently unclear), but with an entry in the Goldsmiths registers. Whether she was actively involved with Dick in the case making or was just a partner in the 'reconstructed company' isn't mentioned. That book continues to provide insights!

Regards,

Graham
 

Tom McIntyre

Technical Admin
Staff member
NAWCC Star Fellow
NAWCC Ruby Member
Sponsor
Golden Circle
Aug 24, 2000
84,737
2,385
113
85
Boston
awco.org
Country
Region
I am reviving this thread to continue my research on Walsh.

I think the upcoming webinar on 27 January has enough material to be useful, but I am still puzzled about Gerrit Nijssen's note that A. P. Walsh received the silver Isis medal in 1838, Does anyone know what that medal is? Google comes up pretty much with a blank on it.
 

Tom McIntyre

Technical Admin
Staff member
NAWCC Star Fellow
NAWCC Ruby Member
Sponsor
Golden Circle
Aug 24, 2000
84,737
2,385
113
85
Boston
awco.org
Country
Region
I do have this Sam Hammond. Sadly the case is a recase.

View attachment 512382

View attachment 512384

View attachment 512386
I believe your Sam Hammond lever watch is also by A. P. Walsh. That is probably my favorite dial on these and yours has the serial number on the dial, which is nice..

I enjoyed reading this Tom, and only you know why-but who is the little boy in the photograph?
The boy came with the watch. It would be nice to know, but it was taken quite a while ago. There is a monogram on the case that could possibly lead to a name for the owner and give a clue to the child.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kevin Neathery

D.th.munroe

Registered User
Feb 15, 2018
950
325
63
40
BC Canada
Country
Region
Hi Tom,
The little I could find on the Silver isis medal A.P. Walsh was awarded in 1838 for his remontoire escapement. They were awarded by the now Royal Society of arts. And I think this could be the same kind of medal. medal
 

Tom McIntyre

Technical Admin
Staff member
NAWCC Star Fellow
NAWCC Ruby Member
Sponsor
Golden Circle
Aug 24, 2000
84,737
2,385
113
85
Boston
awco.org
Country
Region
Thank you so much! I love little bits of information like that. I suspect it will be difficult to get the history of the medal for context, i.e. the list of awardees.

Having looked up their website, I find myself a bit embarrassed that I was not more familiar with them already. I will become much more familiar with them soon.

ARCHIVE AND HISTORY
archive_page1_600px.jpg The RSA was founded during the Enlightenment by William Shipley in 1754 with the first meeting being held at Rawthmell’s Coffee House, Covent Garden, London.

Shipley’s belief that the creativity of ideas could enrich social progress was reflected in the diversity of awards offered by the Premium Award Scheme. For the first 100 years the Society encouraged innovation and excellence through this scheme in six areas - Agriculture, Manufacture, Chemistry, Mechanics, Polite Arts, Colonies and Trade.

Our long lasting commitment to education from being one of the first to promote improvement in girls' education leading to the establishment of Girls’ Public Day Schools and the first public examination system continues today with our growing family of RSA Academy schools.

We also demonstrated a strong commitment to the environment by offering awards for the reduction of smoke emissions as early as 1770, the first recorded use in an environmental context of the word ‘sustainability’ in 1980 and our continued commitment to environmental sustainability reflected in our Great Recovery Programme.

 

Tom McIntyre

Technical Admin
Staff member
NAWCC Star Fellow
NAWCC Ruby Member
Sponsor
Golden Circle
Aug 24, 2000
84,737
2,385
113
85
Boston
awco.org
Country
Region
i found a listing of the isis medal with 90 awards from 1812 to 1845 including this group from 1838. There is no mention of Walsh, so Gerrit may have gotten the reference mixed up a bit.
RSA/PR/AR/103/14/117Foliage design by J Williamson1838
RSA/PR/AR/103/14/450Incomplete drawing by Master C W Allen (trial piece)1838
RSA/PR/AR/103/14/659Drawing of a classical figure by Abraham Soloman1838
RSA/PR/AR/103/14/789Incomplete drawing of a classical head by G Mary Davies1838
Another possibility is that the RSA Archive is incomplete and only holds medals awarded in the fine arts. There may have been awards for practical mechanical drawings that have been mislaid or not yet catalogued. I will imagine for the time being that Walsh produced a fine drawing showing the action of the remontoir.
 

Allan C. Purcell

NAWCC Member
Feb 9, 2013
3,379
1,507
113
Germany
Country
Region
Page XV second list No. 4 1837-38 Thank you Mr Munro. You must remember old coggers like me have poor eye sight-looking through lists like those make me dissy. Regards, Allan.
 

Tom McIntyre

Technical Admin
Staff member
NAWCC Star Fellow
NAWCC Ruby Member
Sponsor
Golden Circle
Aug 24, 2000
84,737
2,385
113
85
Boston
awco.org
Country
Region
That is really great. Thank you.

It is interesting that the RSA does not have the practical arts in their archive. Or, at least not visible to someone like me looking for it.

You have restored my confidence in Gerrit Nijssen. I rarely if ever saw him make a mistake.
 

D.th.munroe

Registered User
Feb 15, 2018
950
325
63
40
BC Canada
Country
Region
Oh sorry, I thought I had left "walsh" in the search in the url for that so it would go directly to the line.
Any time Tom.
All the best.
Dan.
 

gmorse

NAWCC Member
Jan 7, 2011
13,712
2,882
113
Breamore, Hampshire, UK
Country
Region
Hi Tom,

Kullberg's flat rim design is described in Gould.

By the way, I was interested to see the Walsh pocket chronometers 311, 312 and 186(4); there didn't appear to be any frame makers' marks on them but the frames look identical to one I serviced recently, made by Joseph Preston, and finished by John Hammersley, (with a duo in uno balance spring), for M.F Dent.

DSCF5442 - Redacted.JPG

It also had the steel detent stop which wrapped around the balance lower jewel with the adjustment by a screw through the extension, (slightly bent as received).

DSCF5474.JPG

Regards,

Graham
 

Tom McIntyre

Technical Admin
Staff member
NAWCC Star Fellow
NAWCC Ruby Member
Sponsor
Golden Circle
Aug 24, 2000
84,737
2,385
113
85
Boston
awco.org
Country
Region
In Gerrit's article he says that the ebauches were supplied by Preston. I would be pretty confident that the watch you show was made by Walsh. It appears to have all the signature features. Do we have Dent workbooks similar to the one from Parkinson & Frodsham that would show who actually made them? I just checked the Dent list of manufacturers and it cuts off at 1862 which might explain why Walsh would not appear in Mercer's book.
 

gmorse

NAWCC Member
Jan 7, 2011
13,712
2,882
113
Breamore, Hampshire, UK
Country
Region
Hi Tom,

The watch I referenced, case dated 1874, is identical in all the relevant movement features, apart from being earlier and keywound, to a Dent in David Penney's archive which he attributes to John Hammersley. David may be mistaken in his attribution, but I should be very surprised if he was!

Regards,

Graham
 

Tom McIntyre

Technical Admin
Staff member
NAWCC Star Fellow
NAWCC Ruby Member
Sponsor
Golden Circle
Aug 24, 2000
84,737
2,385
113
85
Boston
awco.org
Country
Region
Hi Tom,

The watch I referenced, case dated 1874, is identical in all the relevant movement features, apart from being earlier and keywound, to a Dent in David Penney's archive which he attributes to John Hammersley. David may be mistaken in his attribution, but I should be very surprised if he was!
Hammersley comes into the Walsh story as told by Gerrit around the Duo-in-Uno hairspring which was first shown at the 1862 London Exhibition where McLennan showed the form and two days later Walsh exhibited several examples. Walsh claimed the Duo-in-Uno had been invented by Mairet and it seems clear he was familiar with it before McLennan showed up with it. During that period of innovation, Hammersley claimed to have invented a new form, the Tria-in-Uno with a flat spiral on both the top and bottom. Gerrit reports that both Walsh and McLennan disputed Hammersley's claim. I am not sure what all this means except that Hammersley and Walsh may have had issues with one another and Dent was in the Hammersley camp while Parkinson & Frodsham were in the Walsh camp.

Since the ebauches had the same source in Preston there would be no real reason why an identical appearing example could not have been produced by Hammersley. I suppose that would have to have been the case since Walsh likely could not have supplied all those who wanted the design working alone.

The fact that Walsh was on the BHI Council and was a judge for both the Lever essay competition and the later Balance essay competition there was likely a fair bit of politics in the form of coalitions of makers and names of the big houses.

Crisp who won the competition for the Balance essay was also a member of the BHI Council.

I suspect that some diligent historian could find some interesting stories of the relationships between these various associations of makers and how some participated freely in many and some participated in only a few.

It may be "un English" to discuss such things since Mercer clearly had access to all the information needed to begin exploration and really does not discuss the competition and cooperation at all.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
173,673
Messages
1,516,535
Members
51,879
Latest member
Nauman
Encyclopedia Pages
1,062
Total wiki contributions
2,969
Last update
-