"SAL HESS LIVERPOOL NO 506"

Halda Sweden

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I love these dials and this one is a beauty considering it´s design.

Perhaps it´s a "fake name" on the movement which is rather special. I show you later.....

First question is:

Is the hallmarks faked ones?

Best rgds
Peter

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gmorse

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Hi Peter,

I'm not sure, they do appear to be badly rubbed hallmarks for Chester with a date letter of 'U', which could be for 1816/17 or 1838/9, (it doesn't seem to be the lower case 'u' for 1795/6), with two duty marks. The leopard's head mark is too badly rubbed to see clearly whether it has a crown, which would place it before 1822. The problem here is, that duty marks were not used at all in watch cases after 1798, which leads to my doubt about their veracity.

Regards,

Graham
 

Allan C. Purcell

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Peter, I could not open your photographs, so I copied the third one and enlarged it. It is quite clear there is an Eagle on there, only found on American watches. I would date it about late 19th.C or very early 20th C. I think the eagle is on the other photograph too.

Allan.
 

Halda Sweden

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Dear Morse and Allan!

Here is the back of the paircase case and some pictures on the movement.

Was there any known watchmaker with this signature: "SAL HESS LIVERPOOL"?

Rgds
Peter

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John Matthews

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Graham

As you know I maintain a photographic database of hallmarks - I find this essential for assessing hallmarks. I believe these to be genuine Chester marks for 1795/96. I have two examples with genuine sharp hallmarks on cases by John Barton & Company, Liverpool, that match these rubbed marks. John Barton was active and listed in trade directories from 1794 until 1818. Therefore it would be possible that the date letter is for 1816/17, however the presence of the duty mark, would suggest not and in any case the leopard's head is of the 1795/96 design, rather than that of 1816/17. For this case I believe the maker was William Hull, Liverpool.



John

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gmorse

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Hi John,

I see what you mean, and the double duty mark may have some other explanation, as could the later date letter, but the movement, now that Peter has posted pictures, has a most unusual layout for any English watch. A replacement or repaired case may go some way to explaining this.

I must say though, that the 'doctor's dial' is superb, most unusual with a red seconds chapter, and the remaining hand is a quality Liverpool style.

Regards,

Graham
 

Halda Sweden

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Dear Allan, Graham, John and Alan,

Great info. regarding the case!

Is there any information regarding the watchmaker?

I agree the movement is not a traditional one from Liverpool...

I will clean dial, case and repair the movement including a new minute- and second hand.. Perhaps there is an inscription somewhere..

The external case i missing.

Best rgds
Peter:)
 

gmorse

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Hi Peter,
Is there any information regarding the watchmaker?
There are several entries for the name Hess in Loomes, mostly in Switzerland and Norway, but there are a couple in Liverpool; a Ralph Hess listed as a wholesaler 1848-51, and a Rosetta Hess 1825-34, occupation not listed. Neither of these are the appropriate date, but it does show that there were people with this name in Liverpool, and that it's possible that they had continental connections.

I will clean dial, case and repair the movement including a new minute- and second hand.
The gold minute hand should be pierced like the hour hand, and the seconds hand should have a fairly long counterbalanced tail, around half the length of the pointer end. It could be steel or gold, more likely the former.

Regards,

Graham
 

Halda Sweden

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Thanks Graham,

Perhaps it´s not a fake after all...

It won´t be easy to find hands that match perfectly. I do my best and will show the result later.

Best rgds
Peter B
 

Allan C. Purcell

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No excuse, Peter,
for the case I got it wrong, though I did not have the advantage of the clear photographs, I could not open them, though all are now working again.

Maybe now I can make up for the slip, Samuel Hess seems to have arrived in Liverpool at the end of the 19th century, and is listed at 3, Old Dock in 1797.
(Old Dock was at the bottom of Pool Lane then.) In 1824 there is listed Rossetta Hess, Silversmith, at 36, Pool Lane. (Not proven, but Samuel could have been her husband) Later in 1832, we have Hess Joseph, (yates & H) engraver, 16, Lord Street, and again Rosetta Hess, Silversmith & Clothier, 36, Pool Lane My feeling at the moment is the Hess family came over from Germany, and they could have brought the watch with them, but thats pure speculation. I will see if I can find more information on the Hess family, it seems Rosetta moved up the social ladder by 1834 if you look at the advertisement in the Church Street thread.

Allan.

PS: nn-30.JPG
 
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Allan C. Purcell

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Now having a clear picture of the hallmarks, I can see nothing wrong, the watch is a bit strange with those two duty marks for George the III. with the case maker's mark for William Howard of Lambard Street, Liverpool. 1795. William Hull, it appears only registered in Birmingham. (See Priestley)

Allan.
 

John Matthews

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I forgot last night, it was late, I was going to add the definition of a 'slop-seller'.

It was new to me when I first started going through early trade directories of English ports, such as Liverpool. I hadn't a clue and the mind wondered what was being sold. My wife to the rescue. She deduced it immediately - she is an avid fan of sea faring novels. From slop chest - a ship's store of merchandise, such as clothing, tobacco, etc., maintained aboard merchant ships for sale to the crew. Slop being an early form of men's lower body clothing (hose). These slop sellers were English merchants who sold slops: cheap ready-made clothing or rough working dress. Typically these would be butchers' aprons, or articles of clothing and bedding issued or sold to sailors (WIKI).

John
 
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John Matthews

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She started by reading through the 30 or so Bolitho novels by Alexander Kent.

John
 

Allan C. Purcell

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I forgot last night, it was late, I was going to add the definition of a 'slop-seller'.
Just jog your memory John, "The Two Richards" page 3 2017.

lists the occupations of all those with premises in Pool Lane, and though the scene is much the same, the feeling is Pool Lane did not have the charm of Castle Street. Here we find Pawnbrokers, Slop Dealers,(Slop, Then was cheap clothing for sailors). Flour Dealers, Merchants in Tobacco, Rice, Flour, Linen, and goods for export. Only two Silversmiths, and one clock and watchmaker. N0. 26 Cohan Asher Silversmith and Pawnbroker, N0. 36 Hess Rosetta, Silversmith, and of great interest to this Story No. 41 Richard Hornby watch manufacture.

Allan.
 
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