S T 48R Disassembly

James Lucas

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Aug 25, 2020
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ST 48R Disassembly

Need to replace mainsprings. Looks like in order to split the plates I need to remove the gathering pallet which looks like it's pressed on and separate the center shaft hour gear. How is this done?
Thanks, James

IMG_1100.jpg IMG_1109.jpg
 

Dick Feldman

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Yes, most gathering pallets are press fit on the arbor. Normally those can be pried off with two thick screw drivers or small pry bars. Be careful not to bend the arbor.
Why are you replacing the main springs?
Unless they are broken or cracked, there is seldom a reason to change main springs. The replacement springs will be of lesser quality than the ones you are taking out. Main springs are often thought to be a problem but most times are not. If the clock is not running full term, the real problem is likely low power due to friction due to wear. If you are dead set on replacing the springs, make sure you release and contain the energy before taking the pillar nuts off of the movement. If you do not, the movement parts will fly out like shrapnel. A danger to you and the clock parts.
Reassembly of a movement is much more difficult than taking one apart. If you have never done that before, it would be a good idea to study up. A good book is This Old Clock by David S Goodman which should be in your local library or for sale on eBay or Amazon.
Best of luck,
Dick
 

John P

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Get yourself some paint can openers. I have 2 with a slight curve and 2 with more curve. They work great for removing stubborn chime disks and gathering pallets.
 
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James Lucas

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Aug 25, 2020
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Thanks all. I failed to mention that the going train main spring is broken or dislodged.. The springs are in barrels. Do they need to be let down first?
Thanks again
James
 

James Lucas

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Aug 25, 2020
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A spring winder is best but they can be wound by hand.
I have a Webster winder, just do not know how to contain the spring on the shaft and slide it into this type of barrel in order to get it hooked on the pin inside..
 

wow

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I have a Webster winder, just do not know how to contain the spring on the shaft and slide it into this type of barrel in order to get it hooked on the pin inside..
I have an Ollie Baker which has sleeves to contain the spring. Do you have sleeves?
 

Dick Feldman

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The sleeve you use should be smaller outside diameter than the inside diameter of the barrel. If you are unsure, find the directions to your spring winder and study those. Because of all the energy stored in that wound spring, a mishap can cause injury. You are wearing leather gloves and eye protection when messing with springs, aren't you?
You may have additional problems beyond the broken/unhooked spring.
When springs release quickly, the shock force can and will bend the arbor on the second wheel and maybe the third. That shock can also bend or rip teeth off of the barrel, the second pinion, etc. Before reassembly of the movement, those all should be checked and proper repairs made.
Then comes the big news. At times, the spring failure is secondary damage. Secondary because of a click assembly failing. If you fix all of the other damage and not the click assembly, the click may release again causing the same problem that you just repaired.
Carefully inspect the click for a loose pivot rivet, a weak spring, or a damaged ratchet wheel and any distortion to the click itself. If you find one needs repair, it is well to remedy problems on both click assemblies. If failure was from use, it makes good sense that both springs have been wound the same number of times. Click assemblies must work every time over the lifespan of the clock movement.
For many reasons, a mentor would be a great help to you. Is there a possibility? Your profile does not say where you live. Maybe someone from this board or the NAWCC could help out.
My feeling is that you are into this project well beyond your capabilities.
Best Regards,
Dick
 

R. Croswell

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Thought I had it figured however the barrel slides on the same as the sleeve..:???:
As you have discovered, these springs that are in "spring boxes" (stationary brass cans and not true spring barrels) present a problem. The main gear is attached to the arbor and is in the way of the retainer sleeves. The usual solution is to make a temporary assembly arbor (with no gear) that is also long enough to accommodate the sleeve and fit your spring winder. Begin by removing the original arbor and gear assembly by turning it backward and pulling - it should release and come out. Then install the temporary arbor in the spring winder and slip the sleeve over it. "hook" the spring with the temporary arbor and wind it, then capture it in the sleeve. Reassembly is the reverse - wind the new spring on the temporary arbor and capture it, then put it in the spring box making sure to catch the anchor. Hold the spring box and wind the spring and remove the sleeve. Unwind and remove the temporary arbor and install the original arbor and gear. I find it easier to hold the spring box if both are left screwed to the bracket. Yes, these are a PITA

RC
 
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James Lucas

NAWCC Member
Aug 25, 2020
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The sleeve you use should be smaller outside diameter than the inside diameter of the barrel. If you are unsure, find the directions to your spring winder and study those. Because of all the energy stored in that wound spring, a mishap can cause injury. You are wearing leather gloves and eye protection when messing with springs, aren't you?
You may have additional problems beyond the broken/unhooked spring.
When springs release quickly, the shock force can and will bend the arbor on the second wheel and maybe the third. That shock can also bend or rip teeth off of the barrel, the second pinion, etc. Before reassembly of the movement, those all should be checked and proper repairs made.
Then comes the big news. At times, the spring failure is secondary damage. Secondary because of a click assembly failing. If you fix all of the other damage and not the click assembly, the click may release again causing the same problem that you just repaired.
Carefully inspect the click for a loose pivot rivet, a weak spring, or a damaged ratchet wheel and any distortion to the click itself. If you find one needs repair, it is well to remedy problems on both click assemblies. If failure was from use, it makes good sense that both springs have been wound the same number of times. Click assemblies must work every time over the lifespan of the clock movement.
For many reasons, a mentor would be a great help to you. Is there a possibility? Your profile does not say where you live. Maybe someone from this board or the NAWCC could help out.
My feeling is that you are into this project well beyond your capabilities.
Best Regards,
Dick
Dick, Thanks for all the input.. I will do a though inspection as you suggested. I live in Vista, Ca. and there is a local chapter near me. The only problem is they meet on Saturday night at 7:00pm and I have another commitment at that time. Looks like RC has the solution with a temp arbor. Once again, thank you...James
 
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James Lucas

NAWCC Member
Aug 25, 2020
156
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18
As you have discovered, these springs that are in "spring boxes" (stationary brass cans and not true spring barrels) present a problem. The main gear is attached to the arbor and is in the way of the retainer sleeves. The usual solution is to make a temporary assembly arbor (with no gear) that is also long enough to accommodate the sleeve and fit your spring winder. Begin by removing the original arbor and gear assembly by turning it backward and pulling - it should release and come out. Then install the temporary arbor in the spring winder and slip the sleeve over it. "hook" the spring with the temporary arbor and wind it, then capture it in the sleeve. Reassembly is the reverse - wind the new spring on the temporary arbor and capture it, then put it in the spring box making sure to catch the anchor. Hold the spring box and wind the spring and remove the sleeve. Unwind and remove the temporary arbor and install the original arbor and gear. I find it easier to hold the spring box if both are left screwed to the bracket. Yes, these are a PITA

RC
RC.. Thank you. That should do the trick.. The main problem I have is making a temp arbor.....James
 
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James Lucas

NAWCC Member
Aug 25, 2020
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As you have discovered, these springs that are in "spring boxes" (stationary brass cans and not true spring barrels) present a problem. The main gear is attached to the arbor and is in the way of the retainer sleeves. The usual solution is to make a temporary assembly arbor (with no gear) that is also long enough to accommodate the sleeve and fit your spring winder. Begin by removing the original arbor and gear assembly by turning it backward and pulling - it should release and come out. Then install the temporary arbor in the spring winder and slip the sleeve over it. "hook" the spring with the temporary arbor and wind it, then capture it in the sleeve. Reassembly is the reverse - wind the new spring on the temporary arbor and capture it, then put it in the spring box making sure to catch the anchor. Hold the spring box and wind the spring and remove the sleeve. Unwind and remove the temporary arbor and install the original arbor and gear. I find it easier to hold the spring box if both are left screwed to the bracket. Yes, these are a PITA

RC
RC, Friend of mine made a temporary arbor. Followed your instructions...All went well..Thank you, James
 

James Lucas

NAWCC Member
Aug 25, 2020
156
20
18
Yes, most gathering pallets are press fit on the arbor. Normally those can be pried off with two thick screw drivers or small pry bars. Be careful not to bend the arbor.
Why are you replacing the main springs?
Unless they are broken or cracked, there is seldom a reason to change main springs. The replacement springs will be of lesser quality than the ones you are taking out. Main springs are often thought to be a problem but most times are not. If the clock is not running full term, the real problem is likely low power due to friction due to wear. If you are dead set on replacing the springs, make sure you release and contain the energy before taking the pillar nuts off of the movement. If you do not, the movement parts will fly out like shrapnel. A danger to you and the clock parts.
Reassembly of a movement is much more difficult than taking one apart. If you have never done that before, it would be a good idea to study up. A good book is This Old Clock by David S Goodman which should be in your local library or for sale on eBay or Amazon.
Best of luck,
Dick
Dick, Just wanted to let you know that purchased "This Old Clock by David S Goodman" and it is great for a beginner like myself..Thank you very much for the suggestion.
James
 
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Jess19721

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I wish someone would make a temporary arbor, dummy arbor, whatever...(dummy works great for a newbie like me) and offer on eBay for ST 120 and the similar evil creations.
 

Jess19721

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I have a Webster winder, just do not know how to contain the spring on the shaft and slide it into this type of barrel in order to get it hooked on the pin inside..
I tried to wind by hand, then had super strong hubby try to wind by hand. No joy. The problem is the barrel is too small, spring too strong. The "backwards" springs are a bear!
 

shutterbug

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If you can find a local clock repairman, he would be able to deal with the spring for you. Maybe even a machine shop. You'd have to ask around.
 
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James Lucas

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Aug 25, 2020
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Thank you all again for your help... Now that reassembly has been complete, I've run into another problem.. When I manually move the minute hand the strike works fine. However, as the video shows when left on its own the rack doesn't drop all the way unless I release it by hand. Once again, looking forward to some expert advice. Also, my apologies for the long intro before the strike..
Thanks, James
youtube link
 

wow

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The lowest tooth on the rack is keeping it from dropping. You will need to carefully bend either the lifting pin on the cam or bend the pin on the lever out away from the rack teeth until the rack drops on the hour.
 

James Lucas

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Aug 25, 2020
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The lowest tooth on the rack is keeping it from dropping. You will need to carefully bend either the lifting pin on the cam or bend the pin on the lever out away from the rack teeth until the rack drops on the hour.
This is a little embarrassing, I just rechecked the half hour and it is not striking.. Does that alter your suggestion? Also, why does it lift high enough when I manually move the minute hand?
Thanks
 
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wow

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This is a little embarrassing, I just rechecked the half hour and it is not striking.. Does that alter your suggestion? Also, why does it lift high enough when I manually move the minute hand?
Thanks
In your video you made it drop with your hand, not by turning the hand on the arbor. It does drop when you turn the hand?
 

shutterbug

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To me, it looks like your snail is way out of position and the rack tail is hitting the edge of the 12:00 shelf. Turn the hands around a few times until the snail is dropping at 10:00 or 11:00. That will show more. But my initial feeling is that you should reposition the snail so the rack tail hits the center of the 11:00 shelf (not the 12:00) That should make things better. However, it doesn't explain why it's dropping manually, because that should just duplicate the problem.
 

James Lucas

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Aug 25, 2020
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In your video you made it drop with your hand, not by turning the hand on the arbor. It does drop when you turn the hand?
The video shows the minute hand past the strike point and it did not strike. Then I made it drop by hand.. I does drop when I turn the minute hand manually..
To me, it looks like your snail is way out of position and the rack tail is hitting the edge of the 12:00 shelf. Turn the hands around a few times until the snail is dropping at 10:00 or 11:00. That will show more. But my initial feeling is that you should reposition the snail so the rack tail hits the center of the 11:00 shelf (not the 12:00) That should make things better. However, it doesn't explain why it's dropping manually, because that should just duplicate the problem.
Okay, I'll give it a try and get back to you all...
Thanks
James
 

James Lucas

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Aug 25, 2020
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The video shows the minute hand past the strike point and it did not strike. Then I made it drop by hand.. I does drop when I turn the minute hand manually..

Okay, I'll give it a try and get back to you all...
Thanks
James
The strike is now okay. I re positioned the snail however the problem with the rack dropping is still a mystery. Sometimes the rack drops as it should. Also sometimes when minute hand is manually advanced the rack doesn't drop properly.:???::???:?

James
 
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James Lucas

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Aug 25, 2020
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One thing I didn't mention is that the center arbor pinion is a press fit and I was wondering if too much end shake would affect the cam position for the lifting lever? It keeps perfect time so I doubt that's it. I'm just looking for some clue...There has to be a reason the rack hook doesn't move all the way out and allow the rack to drop..
Thanks
James
 

shutterbug

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I think your gathering pallet needs to be turned about 1mm CCW. It appears to be stopping close to the rack teeth and that's probably stopping the rack from falling.
 

James Lucas

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Aug 25, 2020
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First of all, once again, I thank you all for you input. Finally found the problem with the rack not consistently dropping. The back of rack was slightly rubbing the rack hook lever.. Running fine now. It's been a real learning experience from the difference between spring boxes and barrels, temp arbor for spring removal, setting the snail etc, etc...
James

IMG_1634.jpg
 

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