Rust form after service? Need advice

Discussion in 'Watch Repair' started by Spartcom5, Aug 24, 2019.

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  1. Spartcom5

    Spartcom5 Registered User

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    This is the first pocket watch I have had serviced so I am a completely new to this although I have been collecting for a few years. I had this serviced when it was barely running and cosmetically it looks great but I noticed a few things on the movement.... It looks as if rust had started to form on the one wheel on the bottom? Drying might have been an issue? I also noticed the timing regulator is turn pretty far to slow and I thought it should ideally be in the middle after servicing? And finally it looks like a couple of the letters lost their paint to the cleaning but as far as I know this happens with some watches?
    20190824_172426_resized.jpg

    Here is a BEFORE picture
    20190702_212734_resized.jpg
     
  2. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    I can't see the rust but obviously that doesn't mean it's not there. I may be looking
    in the wrong place. Is it by the click? The before picture is a little blurry and the new
    photo is very clear. It just may be picking up damage that you didn't see initially.

    How is it running time wise over a 24-48 hour period?

    I'm going to move this thread to watch repair where they can tell you
    more about how your watch should have been serviced/repaired.


    Rob
     
  3. Dave Coatsworth

    Dave Coatsworth Forums Administrator
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    I definitely see the rust. What did you use to clean the movement?

    Cleaning alone doesn't necessarily guarantee that you can bring the regulator back to center. There may be another fault that led someone to move it off center in the past. You should examine the balance carefully. Do you see timing washers added or weight cut off the balance screws? Did you remove the balance jewels to clean them? Are the balance pivots 'clean' (no scoring, dirt, etc)?
     
  4. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    Dave, I don't believe he serviced it himself.


    Rob
     
  5. Spartcom5

    Spartcom5 Registered User

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    I was not the one who serviced it. I had it done and was just concerned about the rust. The rust itself is on the crown wheel (had to look up a diagram). It definitely is not there in the before picture.

    Haven't had the watch for more than a day so I dont know how it runs yet.
     
  6. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    OK now I see it.


    Rob
     
  7. Spartcom5

    Spartcom5 Registered User

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    How bad is that? I can take it back, maybe it was just overlooked?
     
  8. Dave Coatsworth

    Dave Coatsworth Forums Administrator
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    #8 Dave Coatsworth, Aug 24, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
    Sorry, did not read carefully enough.

    Looking at the balance cap jewel, it looks like it was removed and not replaced in the same position. Or is this just lighting?

    Are you sure that's rust and not some sort of grease? (Still not acceptable to have grease seeping out, but better than rust!)
     
  9. Spartcom5

    Spartcom5 Registered User

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    Appears to be the lighting

    I did notice when I wound it up the crown turned only a few full rotations, much less than I was expecting, before giving force to not wind anymore.

    Sorry if I dont sound like I know what I am talking about, this is the first pocket watch I've gone through with servicing.
     
  10. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    I don't want to get you riled up(sorry), but this would not be acceptable to me(at all).
    If the watchmaker is reputable than they will have no problem taking it back and cleaning it..
    I would send them the before and after photos and ask them in a nice way "what's up with this?"




    Rob
     
  11. Dave Coatsworth

    Dave Coatsworth Forums Administrator
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    Nothing to be sorry about. I think you have some reason to be concerned. I would also be concerned about the paint loss. However, it is possible that someone in the past touched the paint up with a Sharpie or something and that washed off.
     
  12. Spartcom5

    Spartcom5 Registered User

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    I've seen others talk about paint loss and pocket watches. Is it something that could've been avoided? I swear I remember reading that sometimes it happens to some watches?

    I will take it back and see what went wrong.
     
  13. Peter John

    Peter John Registered User
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    Looks like grease to me. Will it wipe off? When the paint comes off I use a black crayon or monofil to refill the numbers and letters and wipe off the excess. What’s packed into the markings stays. Peter
     
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  14. Spartcom5

    Spartcom5 Registered User

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    I don't know how you could tell but you were right! It was not rust at all just grease, wiped right off on a q-tip and looks great now. Thanks a ton, makes me feel better about it.

    How do you get a crayon to fill the letters? Do you get it extra sharp?

    Finally, I need to get a crystal for this watch. The diameter is 41.2mm and I can find that diameter on ebay but they also need to know the thickness. How do I measure that?
     
  15. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Spartcom5,

    Whether or not you can get any satisfaction from your repairer over this, I certainly wouldn't use him again. There are too many indications of poor practice there; one of the grease marks on the ratchet wheel looks suspiciously like a fingerprint . . .

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  16. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    I'm glad it wiped off and wasn't rust.


    Rob
     
  17. Spartcom5

    Spartcom5 Registered User

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    That fingerprint is actually visible in the before photo. I think it looks like an old print that had been there for a long time and is etched into the metal.

    Also, what causes for the letters to wash off of a movement? I've seen some pocket watches go through cleaning and it all completely comes off and some are perfectly fine?

    I appreciate all the feedback guys! I do plan on learning to do this myself one day. I have too many watches that need servicing and I can't pay for them all!
     
  18. Skutt50

    Skutt50 Registered User

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    I only know that if I put a plate with letters in my ultrasonic cleaner, the paint will be gone but the plate is clean!
    I guess it is some kind of paint used to highlight the engraved numbers/figures against the metall background.

    If I am concerned over the paint I clean the part by hand. A black permanent marker pen can be used to repaint the numbers. It spills over on the plate so some careful tidying up is required before it looks good.
     
  19. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Spartcom5,

    It does depend on how it was done in the factory, but if it's been re-blacked with a black wax or a more fugitive marker pen and you want to restore the look, you could use a modern enamel paint or black wax, and carefully scrape off the excess with a hard plastic blade, (try your Amex card . . . ).

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  20. darrahg

    darrahg Moderator
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    When using a black marker pen. let it dry then wipe with a slightly alcohol dampened paper towel or cloth. Use rodico to remove any traces of lint.
     
  21. pmwas

    pmwas Registered User

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    About the grease - it’s a quite common thing to see, even if it should not happen. Some watchmakers tend to apply too much rather than too little and that’s what happens. As for the lettering - I remember losing almost ALL paint on my Bunn Special while the same solution did no harm to a Waltham at all. Why? I will never know ;)
     
  22. viclip

    viclip Registered User
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    Do we know whether the watch manufacturers used enamel or lacquer paint when filling in the engravings?

    These paint types react differently to various cleaning chemicals.

    For example, some years ago I found out that removing adhesive tape residue from the lacquer paint on my brand new car using rubbing alcohol, also removed the brand new paint ... oh what fun
     
  23. pmwas

    pmwas Registered User

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    I've noticed that on Swiss nickel damaskeened watches from circa 1900 it's usually just paint and it vanishes from the plates even after ultra-short cleaning in ammonia based solutions. I remember cleaning my Paul Buhre movement - there is just half of the paint left after a very, very short time in the liquid. It dissolves very easily and probably that's why it's usually not there anyway nowadays...
     
  24. Spartcom5

    Spartcom5 Registered User

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    Just a quick update, I have yet to find a crystal for this piece, however after a full wind it ran for 25 hours and kept time within 10 seconds. I am satisfied with that performance.

    As for the crystal I know I need a hunter crystal with a diameter of 41.2mm I can see them on eBay but they also want to know what thickness? How do I find that out? Would 2mm be a safe bet?
     
  25. Bila

    Bila Registered User
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    Interesting to hear that it only ran for 25 hours on a full wind, normally you would get anything from 32-38 hours:(

    Erin
     
  26. Spartcom5

    Spartcom5 Registered User

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    #26 Spartcom5, Sep 7, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2019
  27. karlmansson

    karlmansson Registered User

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    A common test to determine the state of a service is to check amplitude and rates after 24 hours. An amplitude above 180 degrees after 24 hours is a minimum for wristwatches from 1940s and onwards in my book. So that would indeed require the watch to be running after that time.
     
  28. GeneJockey

    GeneJockey Registered User
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    If you think about it, a watch that's completely run down or barely running after 24 hours would be a problem for the owner - even if it didn't stop before he wound it again, it would have spent hours in the least accurate state - barely ticking over. Even my 1870s keywinds all make at least 30 hours.
     
  29. Bila

    Bila Registered User
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    I would definitely be sending the watch back, because it should be running longer then 25 Hours, good chance it has the wrong mainspring fitted and that is probably only one of your problems. I dug out one of Dad's old Elgin's to check its run time on a single wind It has been stored for the last 6 years, wound it up and away it went, it has been on the timing machine now for 32 hours, on the one wind. Still running well, amplitude is at 200 degrees and showing 11 secs fast a day, this was serviced and had a new mainspring before being stored. It is only an 11 Jewel Grade 105 from 1891, I would expect yours to run at least as good as it:)
     
  30. Bila

    Bila Registered User
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    Just hit the 35 Hour mark with the Grade 105, still running but amplitude has dropped a shade under the 180 Degrees and the watch is running around the 18 seconds fast a day now, this is nothing unusual when wound down this far, I would say getting close to the end of the run. So, the OP's watch is why of the mark as I first thought and as others have alluded to, also looks like the watch site quoted by the OP also needs to have a rethink on the data they provide:(
     
  31. Spartcom5

    Spartcom5 Registered User

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    #31 Spartcom5, Sep 12, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019
    My mistake, I was not winding the watch up as much as I should have been. I was stopping much to early because I was afraid of over winding. I need to wind it until it stops.... which I was not doing! Will run another few tests.
     
  32. karlmansson

    karlmansson Registered User

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    ”Over winding” is one of those myths that many people selling used watches online will use. There is no such thing as over winding. If you wind past full wind you will break the mainspring. You will notice a significant increase in resistance on the crown as you reach the last few clicks on the ratchet, usually enough to cause the crown to slip between your fingers unless you are really pinching it.
    Watches sold as “overwound” because they are fully wound but won’t most likely don’t have issues with the mainspring but with friction issues from dirty bearings, poor state of lubrication and/or broken parts in the going train or escapement.

    A bit of debunking for anyone happening to read this.

    Regards
    Karl
     
  33. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Karl,

    Or probably before the mainspring gives way, this will happen:

    DSCF3798.JPG

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  34. GeneJockey

    GeneJockey Registered User
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    I've noticed more listings on Ebay recently where the seller described the watch as 'wound tight' rather than 'over wound'. Maybe word's getting out!

    In fact, I just last month bought one described as 'wound tight' - worth what I paid for it, even nonrunning - but by the time it reached me it was completely wound down, and when subsequently wound up to test it ran. Not well, but definitely running! Probably just needs a good cleaning, which I'll get to...sometime....
     
  35. Spartcom5

    Spartcom5 Registered User

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    #35 Spartcom5, Sep 13, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2019
    On a proper full wind it was just short of 34 hours! Still need to find a crystal... I have the diameter of 41.2mm but the ebay listing wants to know a thickness as well?

    One watchmaker I went to in order to find a crystal offered to grind one down that was slightly bigger in diameter than what I needed. Is this something to consider or just keep looking for the proper size? He also wanted $45-$50 to do it as well...
     
  36. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Spartcom5,

    The thickness and inside height is mainly a concern with hunter crystals, because they have to be high enough to clear the cannon pinion and hands without being too high for the lid to close properly. This usually means they're quite thin. For an open face case they obviously still have to clear the cannon pinion and hands, but the profile and thickness are more a matter of aesthetics once that aspect is settled.

    Have a look at Dave's Watch Parts, (he's a member here: Dave Coatsworth). Most crystals are available in increments of 0.1mm.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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