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RSM Rose Logo (Schnekenburger, Mühlheim)

John Hubby

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Hi John
I have a "Jahresuhr Sylvester. Patentirt in allen Culturstaaten. Ser.III 81"
Can you help me with informations:
Arla, welcome to the NAWCC Message Board! Thanks very much for posting your inquiry and the photos of your Jahresuhr Sylvester torsion clock. To make this easy to understand, I'll answer each of your questions individually.
1. Have this model / type of watch also been made under the RSM Schnekenburger name ?
No, it had no association at all with Schnekenburger. The escapement design was patented in 1897 by J. Christian Bauer, and manufactured at his cousin Carl Bauer's factory in Fürth. The movement is actually based on the earlier detent escapement design year clocks patented by Wilhelm Köhler and J.C. Bauer that "were" made for a short time by R. M. Schnekenburger, however there are differences certainly in the escapement and also in some details of the gears.

The clocks made by Schnekenburger were produced in 1894 and 1895, of which about 600 were completed by September or October of 1895. However, Schnekenburger was having financial difficulties and sales were slow, so Köhler and Bauer (who had invested money into the manufacture) decided to move the manufacturing from Mühlhiem to Carl Bauer's factory in Fürth, which was done before the end of 1895 and production resumed there by January 1896. Advertisements by Carl Bauer were placed in trade magazines in February 1896 extolling the virtues of these clocks and also promoting his use of the word "Sylvester" which was used to denote the new year, thus indicating a year-clock. That logo was NOT used for the continuing production of the Köhler-Bauer patent clocks, of which about another 600 were made from early 1896 to perhaps late 1897 or into 1898. Those clocks are all stamped with the "RSM with Rose" Schnekenburger logo, which must have been used by agreement.

There is confusion about the Köhler-Bauer detent escapement clocks and the Jahresuhr Sylvester duplex escapement clocks, largely due to the similar appearance of the movements and the nearly identical pendulums used, but also that essentially identical cases of several designs were used for both types of clock. Although you did not ask about the case for your clock, it is not original but a very well made German box clock design from the 1920s to which the movement has been adapted. Here is a photo of a typical original case for both the Schnekenburger and the Bauer clocks:

630 Front.jpg
There were larger, smaller and more elaborate cases than this one but all were of the Altdeutsche design style.

2. How old is the watch ?
Your clock was made in 1898 based on the serial number.

3. What is the English technical name on the clockwork ?
The words "Jahresuhr Sylvester" are "Year-Clock Sylvester", the second word being trademarked by Carl Bauer. The words "Patentiert in Alles Culturstaten" translates to "Patented in all Developed Countries".

4. How many have been manufactured ?
5. How rarely is it ?
Thank you for a very interesting forum which also is understandable for an amateur.
My data show that only about 350 were made, of which I have now documented 12, so it could be considered rare. I should mention that many of the cases originally used were subject to damage from woodworm and have been lost over the years. Of the 12 Bauer duplex clocks I have documented, only 7 are in their original cases.

These are wonderful and interesting clocks especially for those interested in torsion pendulum designs, being that the Schnekenburger and the Bauer clocks were the only full striking torsion pendulum wall clocks ever made.

I will leave your post and my response here with the Schnekenburger clocks so that it can be seen and understood by anyone interested in one of the most insteresting stories of Schnekenburger's clockmaking career. I also am copying them to the 400-Day forum for information there.
 

Tom Macfie

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upload_2018-2-15_20-19-41.png

I'm new to all of this and excited I figured out the way to post this photo. UM Muller clock. This photo is from the back plate. Lion. Tail down. Below that UM and then below that 198528. There is another number on right side of back plate. P 438. I think the six digit code can help us date the clock. More photos to come. I want to know how to oil the right parts. What oil? How much? Where to apply. Thanks. Tom
 

Tom Macfie

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Now I'll try a second photo: the back of the plate. Where to I oil? I will follow another link sent a few days ago.

In this photo, lion, UM and number lower left hand side.

Thanks. Tom

upload_2018-2-15_20-27-2.png
 

gintarasb64

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I proudly present my first very beautiful and gorgeous RSM clock. When I started to look for information about RSM with rose logo I found this thread and already read every post from the first one. Very interesting story developed during more than 10 years... Sharing pictures of my 2 weight regulator, maybe would be useful for your records :)
Best regards
Gintaras

20180614_190422.jpg 20180614_190431.jpg 20180614_211546.jpg 20180613_213111.jpg 20180613_210555.jpg 20180613_132309.jpg 20180613_132315.jpg 20180613_210510.jpg 20180613_210537.jpg
 

John Hubby

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I'm new to all of this and excited I figured out the way to post this photo. UM Muller clock. This photo is from the back plate. Lion. Tail down. Below that UM and then below that 198528. There is another number on right side of back plate. P 438. I think the six digit code can help us date the clock. More photos to come. I want to know how to oil the right parts. What oil? How much? Where to apply. Thanks. Tom
Now I'll try a second photo: the back of the plate. Where to I oil? I will follow another link sent a few days ago.
In this photo, lion, UM and number lower left hand side.
Thanks. Tom]
Tom, welcome to the NAWCC Message Board!! First of all, I would like to apologize for this very tardy response, I notice your posts were at a time I wasn't available so I obviously missed them then and just now came across them..

Thanks for your inquiry and for posting the photos of your Uhrenfabrik Mühlheim Müller & Co. (UMMC) movement. Based on the serial number, which is actually 198528_08, it was made in early 1927, about eight to ten months after UMMC started using this particular "tail down" lion logo. The reason I say the entire serial number has the "08" added is that UMMC continued using Reinhold Schnekenburger's batch numbering system when they took over the company in 1900. Even after the "RSM with Rose" Schnekenburger logo was replaced by the "UM Lion" logo after their factory suffered a cataclysmic boiler explosion in October 1913, the serial numbering system was continued. You mention that on the right lower part of the back plate you found the numbers "P438", in fact what is there is the pendulum length in centimeters "P43", and the batch series number "8". Each batch contained 30 clocks, thus you will find numbers from 1 to 30, that match the last digit or two of the serial number.

It will be very much appreciated if you could show us photos of the front of the clock, the dial, and the rod gong assembly to help with documentation. Please post larger photos, we have no problem with your using large photos as our software will re-size them to display properly. What I can tell from the photos already provided, serial number and pendulum info is that you have a wall mounted Westminster chiming clock that uses a rod gong for the sound. With the photos mentioned we should be able to provide more info about your clock.
 

John Hubby

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I proudly present my first very beautiful and gorgeous RSM clock. When I started to look for information about RSM with rose logo I found this thread and already read every post from the first one. Very interesting story developed during more than 10 years... Sharing pictures of my 2 weight regulator, maybe would be useful for your records :)
Best regards
Gintaras
Gintaras, thanks very much for posting the photos of your clock. Based on the serial number this one was made by Uhrenfabrik Mühlheim Müller & Co. (UMMC) in 1909. It is one of the last Vienna Regulator style clocks made by them with a weight driven movement, I have only one other made after yours in my data, also made in 1909. It appears your clock is complete and original, the only point I noted about all the parts is that the minute hand appears to have had its "tail" broken off. Normally there would have been an extension about 2 cm long, you can see the broken stub and also that the hand appears to still be bent somewhat. It isn't difficult to find replacement hands should you wish to do that, or you could make an extension by looking at the same designs on other clocks in this thread.

It's quite an impressive clock and appears to be in excellent condition.
 

MuensterMann

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I am working on a Mueller-Schneckenberger RMS with Rose symbol. It is from a wall clock. No name gong. I am trying to date the clock. Here is a photo of the plate. 103017 is the serial number. Batch 7. And, for pendulum 33. Where would those numbers place this clock on the time line? Thanks!

place logo.jpg Looking at a previous post in this thread, my guess would be 1902, perhaps by Muller.
 
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MuensterMann

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Here are photos of other parts of the clock. The crown is missing. I am still not sure if this clock serial number points to 1902 or 1904 as I saw two posts that produce different dates. However, it is one of them!!! Maybe the photos below shed more light and information.

dial.jpg front.jpg gong.jpg side.jpg inside.jpg
 

Isaac

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Here are photos of other parts of the clock. The crown is missing. I am still not sure if this clock serial number points to 1902 or 1904 as I saw two posts that produce different dates. However, it is one of them!!! Maybe the photos below shed more light and information.

View attachment 545852 View attachment 545853 View attachment 545854 View attachment 545857 View attachment 545858
Interestingly, the gong looks very similar to Junghan's Kaisergong. Nice looking clock!
 

MuensterMann

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Are you saying that the gong may not be original to the clock? Something is going on as the fit is not good as I am putting the movement back in the case.
 

EricH

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Hello, I stumbled across this thread while attempting repair of a clock my mother had originally from the Czech Republic. Unfortunately it had been knocked off the wall during a storm, the case needed some repair but the mechanism looks to be in good working order (and kept fairly close time earlier). The case is quite different, not as ornate as the others in the thread but would be thankful for whatever information you might have on this clock (Serial number 3474 - 24). Would you know what the R = A is on the pendulum?

IMG_4239.JPG IMG_4240.JPG IMG_4241.JPG IMG_4242.JPG IMG_4243.JPG

One additional related question; are there any recommendations for the hanging of the clock? Given it had let go earlier, I'm not trusting the older holes and somewhat reluctant to make new ones.
Thank you in advance!

Eric IMG_4244.JPG
 

MuensterMann

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The R and A are for Retard and Avance, French for Slow and Fast. The arrow points downward to the rating nut - which controls the length of the effective pendulum by making the bob go up or down.
 

macaw

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P6280001.JPG P6280024.JPG P6280025.JPG P6290034.JPG P6290033.JPG
This is a very French RSM clock. Could they have bought the clock from a French supplier and then stamped their own logo on it? The movement also looks very French but it's missing everything that makes a French clock easy to set up including the markings on the gears. Last question- does anyone have an idea of what the 2 guys would have been holding?
 

Walt Wallgren

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That is a strange one. That is the small RSM logo which wasn't used until after 1900 when RSM was taken over by Meuller. The S/N with the batch number of 30 off to the side fits with the RSM numbering system. I don't know what the 2 4's are below the S/N. Also, it looks as if the holes for the winding arbors were plugged and then re-punched.

Hopefully, John Hubby will be along and maybe shed some light on this one.

Walt
 

macaw

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In a normal French movement the 2 - 4s would tell me the correct pendulum length (center of the bob to the suspension spring bending point) witch in this case should be 117mm (4 pounce + 4 ligne) but this pendulum is about 30mm longer.
 

new2clocks

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In a normal French movement the 2 - 4s would tell me the correct pendulum length (center of the bob to the suspension spring bending point) witch in this case should be 117mm (4 pounce + 4 ligne) but this pendulum is about 30mm longer.
FWIW, this is the first round, French style movement with the RSM rose trademark shown on this thread.

Regards
 

macaw

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Winding arbors and the first wheels were plugged and re-punched. One of the first wheel plugs shifted so I had to use a large bushing with a plug to take up the space and re-drill it.
 

TEW

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I am brand new at posting, Hope I am doing it right. My family has a RSM wall clock. My great-grandfather worked to the Uhrednfabrik in Mühlheim / Donau sometime after 1873. He immigrated to the US in 1901 bringing a clock movement with him. The story says he brought it over in pieces which he later re-assembled here in the US. My great-uncle made a case for it here in the US. I recently got the serial number of the movement: 62437 27 The movement has the Rose Logo with RMS for R. Schnekenburger - Mühlheim / Donau, I am hoping to find when the clock make. I am sending a picture of front of clock and back plate (Note the picture of back plate does not show the '6' , but it is there. Thanks.

20200701_153328.jpg P1090777.JPG
 

TEW

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Thank you ! May I ask how you determined that it is from 1897? The year does make sense, my great-grandfather was 52 at the time.
 

Tatyana

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Thank you ! May I ask how you determined that it is from 1897? The year does make sense, my great-grandfather was 52 at the time.
Later RSM have a signature with this patent 113027.
The patent was registered March 3 1899.
I believe that this firm produced no more than 10,000 movements a year, so 1897.

79_310_Patent_113027.jpg
 

jacobsthlm

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Hi. I written a thread under my latest purchase and called it “I thought it was a Becker”. Now I heard that this is the RSM thread, and I took more pictures of the clock and can add it all here. As I wrote, and as others has done the same mistake, as in believing they have a Becker in front of them when getting it.

I could not read all the threads but I got most of the historic parts so no need to write it all again. As I understand it, this is made somewhere between 1882-1900 and with this number over 120.000+ maybe in the 1890th. I also seen that the 43 is the pendulum. 5 I don’t know. Hope to get an exact year of making.

For some reason I can’t add any photos and this thread becomes a bad one. I let this stand and see if I can add the pictures in a while...
 

Tatyana

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I could not read all the threads but I got most of the historic parts so no need to write it all again. As I understand it, this is made somewhere between 1882-1900 and with this number over 120.000+ maybe in the 1890th. I also seen that the 43 is the pendulum. 5 I don’t know. Hope to get an exact year of making.

...
Hi, I believe this movement was made circa 1907.
5 - No. of the assembly kit.
The RSM usually had a party of 30 movements.
Here is a close serial number 123207.


DSC03223 (2).JPG

BR, Tatyana
 
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jacobsthlm

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Hi, I believe this movement was made circa 1907.
5 - No. of the assembly kit.
The RSM usually had a party of 30 movements.
Here is a close serial number 123207.


View attachment 615256

BR, Tatyana
Well it was not you who said the pendulum number is 43, but I believe you can answer my next question. As the box is a GB clock, and it’s running so fast I took a look on it and..... Does that mean that the pendulum should be 43 cm long, or what?

I have just taken this for granted and never asked about it, and when I today measured it, it not 43 cm at all. Far from it, only 32.

Regards
 

MuensterMann

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I am pretty sure the 43cm is the pendulum length. It would explain why it runs fast, being only 32 cm. However, the length is probably not the length of the pendulum itself (bob and stick, with distance from top to bottom of the stick), but rather from the post the hanger hangs on to the center of the bob.
 

Tatyana

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Well it was not you who said the pendulum number is 43, but I believe you can answer my next question. As the box is a GB clock, and it’s running so fast I took a look on it and..... Does that mean that the pendulum should be 43 cm long, or what?

I have just taken this for granted and never asked about it, and when I today measured it, it not 43 cm at all. Far from it, only 32.

Regards
Here's a pic:

Pendellänge1.jpg
 

jcb29

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Re: Drgm 113027/95601

JCB, hello again. On July 30, you made the post #4 that I have copied above, including photos of your clock and questions about the DRGM number and serial number. I replied to your post but apparently you didn't see that so I've copied that and repeated it below. To answer your questions and those posted by other users who have replied to this thread, there is no question regarding who made the clock, when it was made, what DRGM 113027 was all about, and the history of the RSM Rose logo. All that has been thoroughly documented and reported in other threads here on the Message Board, in particular the company and logo history is related in this post: Click Here

I need to comment that unfortunately the information in Kochmann's European Trade Mark Index has some considerable errors not only regarding the logo history but also with dates and names. That has been corrected with the help of Doug Stevenson, Albra, Soaring Joy and several other research contributors.

In summary, based on the serial number 95601_21 your clock was made by Uhrenfabrik Mühlheim Müller & Co (UMMC), in the April-June quarter of 1902. The "21" stamped to the right of the serial number is the manufacturing batch number, that I have explained in the above post.

Your clock was made while the DRGM 113207 was still valid and in effect. That design protection DRGM was granted March 8, 1899 to Reinhold Schnekenburger and was for the design of a special rack strike control for 3/4 bim-bam striking.

Also, your clock is not a torsion pendulum clock although Schnekenburger did make about 600 full striking 400-Day clocks in 1894 and 1895 based on the Köhler-Bauer patents. About the same number were finished by Carl Bauer of Fürth in 1896 and 1897 after Schnekenburger became insolvent in 1896.

Earlier reply by me to your July 30 post;



For further discussion I am merging this thread with the appropriate discussion of RSM logo clocks in the General Clocks Forum.
 

jcb29

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Mr. Hubby - again, many thanks for the information your have imparted. My problem remains - I am without a suitable pendulum and at a loss about where to turn for a source. Any leads you might share will be gratefully accepted.
 

jacobsthlm

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Mr. Hubby - again, many thanks for the information your have imparted. My problem remains - I am without a suitable pendulum and at a loss about where to turn for a source. Any leads you might share will be gratefully accepted.
Maybe I don’t understand how your clock look like and your pendulum are very rare, but my clock made a few years later looks like any other Becker or Junghans pendulums so can’t you do the same, use any pendulum made the same time (more or less)?
 

Yahagi

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Hello
I am very impressed with the information on RSM in this thread. Many of them are new to me and I am glad that I was able to complete my knowledge.

I am from another thread:

in which I was surprised by John Hubby's opinion (great respect for your knowledge) about the clock shown there. I have a completely different estimate for its dating.

For starters - I am interested in RSM clocks, the early ones - for only a few months. Their topic appeared when distinguishing unsigned FMS and RSM. I took some time to do this, but it's not my most fascinating producer.

Thought I would share my thoughts and insights with you.
For starters - it seems to me that the NAWCC underestimated the number of mechanisms similar to the one shown in the thread mentioned earlier. In my opinion - there were not so few of them and it is unlikely that they were created only in 1882 (and 1883). In my opinion, their production took several years, up to +/- 1890 (?). I estimate the number of such mechanisms at around ... 70,000 (!). If anyone wants to know why - I will be happy to share my analyzes.
At the moment I have 105 mechanisms in my archives with numbers 1-30, which naturally _repeat_.

Apart from the numbers on the mechanisms, it is also worth taking into account technological changes. Based on the available photos, I distinguished various changes that took place in them. I showed the changes of the anchor, pendulum and pointers in the previous thread. In addition, there were changes to the method of mounting in the box. There were at least 3 different hangers for mechanisms 1-30 with 2 springs. I noticed at least 12 such significant changes. Is it possible that they took place within 1 year? I do not think so. It is also worth comparing the patterns of clock cases that were in fashion then.

It is worth noting that RSM also produced mechanisms for other sellers. This proves the high production capacity. Could he have obtained it in 1882 by taking over the plant and 20 of its employees from Amann? I do not think so.

Additionally, I believe that after this period, when mechanisms with numbers 1-30 appeared many times - there was also a period when 1-30 ROSE appeared. And it has also happened many times. I currently have 12 such mechanisms, which I interpret as a shorter period. I also do not see such significant changes as in the previous time (without the ROSE). Nevertheless, I estimate that about 8000 such mechanisms could have been produced (in my opinion it is about the annual production of RSM).
I estimate the total production of 'RSM' in stages 1-30, 1-30 ROSE, and numbered until the change from large ROSE to small ROSE (73325/75752) at about 150,000.

John Hubby mentioned RSM No. 381 with the 1885 plate. I'd love to see this case if it doesn't naturally cause a problem.

I'm not boring any more ... :)
I am curious about your comments.
greetings
Yahagi




tab.jpg $_57 (3).jpg Bez-nazwy-2.jpg s-l1600 (8).jpg $_57 (2).jpg 8440628671.jpg IMG_0217.jpg s-l1600.jpg s-l16001.jpg 000022 Mvmt Back.jpg DSCN5207.jpg
 
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new2clocks

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Hello
I am very impressed with the information on RSM in this thread. Many of them are new to me and I am glad that I was able to complete my knowledge.

I am from another thread:

in which I was surprised by John Hubby's opinion (great respect for your knowledge) about the clock shown there. I have a completely different estimate for its dating.

For starters - I am interested in RSM clocks, the early ones - for only a few months. Their topic appeared when distinguishing unsigned FMS and RSM. I took some time to do this, but it's not my most fascinating producer.

Thought I would share my thoughts and insights with you.
For starters - it seems to me that the NAWCC underestimated the number of mechanisms similar to the one shown in the thread mentioned earlier. In my opinion - there were not so few of them and it is unlikely that they were created only in 1882 (and 1883). In my opinion, their production took several years, up to +/- 1890 (?). I estimate the number of such mechanisms at around ... 70,000 (!). If anyone wants to know why - I will be happy to share my analyzes.
At the moment I have 105 mechanisms in my archives with numbers 1-30, which naturally _repeat_.

Apart from the numbers on the mechanisms, it is also worth taking into account technological changes. Based on the available photos, I distinguished various changes that took place in them. I showed the changes of the anchor, pendulum and pointers in the previous thread. In addition, there were changes to the method of mounting in the box. There were at least 3 different hangers for mechanisms 1-30 with 2 springs. I noticed at least 12 such significant changes. Is it possible that they took place within 1 year? I do not think so. It is also worth comparing the patterns of clock cases that were in fashion then.

It is worth noting that RSM also produced mechanisms for other sellers. This proves the high production capacity. Could he have obtained it in 1882 by taking over the plant and 20 of its employees from Amann?

Additionally, I believe that after this period, when mechanisms with numbers 1-30 appeared many times - there was also a period when 1-30 ROSE appeared. And it has also happened many times. I currently have 12 such mechanisms, which I interpret as a shorter period. I also do not see such significant changes as in the previous time (without the ROSE). Nevertheless, I estimate that about 8000 such mechanisms could have been produced (in my opinion it is about the annual production of RSM).
I estimate the total production of 'RSM' in stages 1-30, 1-30 ROSE, and numbered until the change from large ROSE to small ROSE (73325/75752) at about 150,000.

John Hubby mentioned RSM No. 381 with the 1885 plate. I'd love to see this case if it doesn't naturally cause a problem.

I'm not boring any more ... :)
I am curious about your comments.
greetings
Yahagi




View attachment 661986 View attachment 661987 View attachment 661988 View attachment 661989 View attachment 661990 View attachment 661991 View attachment 661992 View attachment 661993 View attachment 661994 View attachment 661995 View attachment 661996
Very interesting post, Yahagi!

Please provide some clarification for me.

For starters - it seems to me that the NAWCC underestimated the number of mechanisms similar to the one shown in the thread
Are you referring to specifically to Paddypup's clock (shown below)?

1625698913563.png


It is worth noting that RSM also produced mechanisms for other sellers. This proves the high production capacity. Could he have obtained it in 1882 by taking over the plant and 20 of its employees from Amann?
It is also my understanding that RSM designed movements, after RSM's acquisition by UMM, produced loose movements to the trade. I am not sure if, prior to the UMM acquisition, RSM sold loose movements to the trade.

My questions:

- Do we know when these loose movements were sold to the trade?

- Do we know how many loose movements were sold to the trade?

- Do we know how many loose movements were sold to the trade on a year-by-year basis?

Regards.
 
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Yahagi

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Yes, I mean this clock shown by Paddypup. I believe that it was created closer to 1888-90.

I don't think UMM sold their mechanisms outside (after 1897). There is no evidence for this, and I myself do not have such a belief. I believe that was not the case.

I believe that RSM was producing for others in the best years. This could be the period 1887-1892. This market was already taken over by Mauthe, Werner, Bauerle. It was probably not easy to exist there.

I cannot answer the 3 questions you asked. Each unambiguous answer would not be confirmed by arguments :)

I can write about my feelings. In addition to the shown Ruttmann & Kleine and Carl Hermsen, I also have a photo of Carl Engelkemper, but from the numbering period, from its very beginning.

I have never had a particular interest in Carl Engelkemper and perhaps that is why I cannot say anything specific about him. In addition to the 2 cases shown (one weak photo) I still have in the archives of Carl Engelkemper on Kienzle 1 million 48 xxx. For this mechanism, it would be +/- 1898.

Carl Hermsen, the other mechanisms I saw - were manufactured between (in my opinion) 1888-1895 on Mauthe. Maybe they are also later.

The most interesting is Ruttmann & Kleine. They used a lot of producers. Once I tried to establish the dating of one of them on which the R&K signature appeared. 1886 was so cautious. Other R&K mechanisms are later in my opinion. R&K itself considered itself an excellent seller in 1888 :)

These RSM mechanisms made for others - these are additional blocks to the puzzle that must be taken into account somewhere :)


Greetings

864730644_s-l1600(2).jpg.a678259c93d1df89cc4b22a934d4bb4c.jpg 257322911_Uhrwerke-Regulator-Ersatzteile-fur-Bastler-Sammler-_57(3).thumb.jpg.03dbb840597c00f3...jpg
 

Yahagi

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Continuation of the conversation with:

John Hubby...
Thank you very much for your answer. Now I understand how you estimate the number of mechanisms without ROSE.

I believe that perhaps it is worth re-examining these assumptions. I showed the statistics of the mechanisms that I have in the archive:


tab.jpg

This list of mechanisms 1-30 does not include signed ROSEs. It also does not take into account the weight mechanisms (loaders, strings - I do not know how the translator will handle it) with and without ROSE. They are not included here.

But without even subtracting them - please see what the image / vision is like:

Yahagi has 105 in his archives out of 210 produced movements. That is, it has a documented 50% of the earliest "RSM" production. Do you think it's possible? I would be a 'happy person' :) But i don't think so....

I think these numbers 1-30 should not be treated as numbering, but as a suffix. It was precisely this method that then appeared over the years. On the first RSM mechanisms - there was no number, but a suffix. He repeated himself many times. The table shown shows this information. The same numbers are repeated many times.

I believe that there were many such mechanisms, and with my 105 in the archive - I have little insight into what early RSM has produced. As I wrote before - there were a lot of technological changes for such mechanisms. Such changes happen over the years, not weeks.

The given number of 70,000 such mechanisms surprised me. But I believe that although it is so big - it can be ... _ underestimated _. Perhaps it should be increased even more. We know how many mechanisms GBecker produced annually. I estimate the production of FMS in the years 1882-85 at no more than 20,000 per year.

Someone had to make these mechanisms. I don't think it could be Amann. Having 20 employees and producing mechanisms of this quality (I believe they are comparable to Lenz / Werner ... and better than, for example, Mauthe) - and in such numbers - he would not have the right to go bankrupt :)

Privately - I have another 'candidate' for the production of Amann. A bit too few arguments to show it.

But I will also show hangers on which mechanisms 1-30 with 2 springs appeared. Only those that have appeared repeatedly. Paddypup hanger - has already been presented. I believe it was used at the end of story 1-30. Technological changes in the mechanism shown by Paddypup are in line with my analyzes. This mechanism was made just before 1-30 ROSE.

greetings



BlachaL_03.jpg
This one, I believe, appears the earliest.
One note here ... probably it's just a mistake in the numbers (with John Hubby), but the clock with this hanger has the date 1883.



BlachaL_02.jpg
I have the most of such hangers with mechanisms 1-30

OdlewP_01.jpg

OdlewL_01.jpg
 

Yahagi

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This is maybe a little more about why I say that there are definitely more mechanisms 1-30, and their number is estimated at around 70,000.
As I wrote - a few months ago I decided to compare unsigned RSM and FMS. I asked Tatyana to share the archive (thanks again), because we have exchanged resources several times.
RSM - is not my greatest interest. I am more fascinated by the history of producers from Freiburg, with the exception of Gustav Becker, because a lot is already discovered here.
I have been collecting their archives in this direction for about 2 years. If I see a clock or a mechanism from Freiburg somewhere and I can determine its number - I archive it.
Below is a summary of this.


Tab-2.jpg

The results in red are particularly interesting. In the case of Concordia - this means I have a photo every 670 of the movement (or the entire clock) (1/670). In the case of Germania - this result is much smaller for some reason, 1201 (1/1201) ... although I try the same 
Looking at these archives which I have been gathering for about 2 years (with the support of others), I can assume some estimate.
If I have 105 mechanisms 1-30 in my archive, assuming that I managed to document 1/700 - the total number exceeds 70,000. It seems that it is a very conservative estimate that 1/700 is underestimated, because I deal with only a few months works.

greetings
 
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Yahagi

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For information only ....
Another one with the number 26 appeared and I am convinced that it is not the last. This is the 6th copy with this number.

s-l1600 (1).jpg s-l1600.jpg
 
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Yahagi

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On the subject of RMS dating ...

I have been analyzing RSM products for some time and thought I would share my insights.

Why do I still think the assumptions made so far are wrong?
I wanted to recall the mechanism that Tatyana has already shown.

https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/two-small-vienna-style-clocks-seek-info.169621/#post-1370193

fb872f084bfd8b29da89e558083d.jpg
Patent.jpg



And according to the assumptions made so far, it could be dated to 1883/4. But it cannot be so dated, because it is already signed with a patent from 1888. Tatyana wrote that it could be 1890. I think the same ... maybe it is a bit later (1891-2? - I think I have an idea how to specify it).

The only explanation for this would be that the mechanism 309/15 is of a different numbering (1), similar to Kohler (2).
I believe that the weight clocks (3) were also numbered differently, but also the 'two gongs' (quarter-hour - I don't know how the translator will handle it) (4). There was also the main numbering (5).

All of them, which were produced around 1897, had equal numbers. Made uniform. The numbers seem to have merged around 50,000.

1 - I saw only one copy (309/15)
2 - as far as I know, about 1,200 were produced.
3 - I have a photo of 11 clocks with the numbers 1290 ROSE to 5404 ROSE. The next one is only 57xxx ROSE. If anyone saw the mechanisms between these numbers - please let me know.
4- I received a lot of these photo documentation. 442 ROSE to 12835 ROSE. Then there is also a break and 53907 appears. Here also - if someone has a photo in between - I would be grateful for the info.
5 - the main numbering is continuous, but I believe that at the very beginning there was a lot of confusion. I can't document it yet.

On the topic of group 4 - it is worth seeing the clock from the forum in Poland:

FMS vs RSM - stare mechanizmy

1629826149241.png
1629826182289.png


The clock has the number 4884/24 and the plate shows 1896 (I agree with that).
Below 79310 with patent 113027 from 1899


Nowości 091.jpg


Additionally, I think that small / large ROSE - not of key importance in dating, because they mix. I think finding other tags can be helpful.



s-l1600 (6).jpg
0dde39664060a4c7c2090040aacd.jpg
25a2919b14d2f119b23b6564c4825083e.jpg

$_57 (1).jpg

3.jpg
oryginalny (1).jpg
s-l1600.jpg


I am curious about the opinions of others.
 
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Yahagi

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It seems to me that this information is crucial in the subject of the dating of the RSM mechanisms.
ROSE was registered even later than expected.

rsm_1894_rose.jpg
 
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new2clocks

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It seems to me that this information is crucial in the subject of the dating of the RSM mechanisms.
ROSE was registered even later than expected.

View attachment 674333
Hello, Yahagi.

Thank you for your discovery. It is very helpful.

However, a word of caution is needed before we can proclaim that the 1894 registration was the first registration of the RSM rose logo.

The year 1894 is significant, as 1894 is the year when trademarks ("TMs") were first registered on a national, central basis in Germany. [Courtesy Doug Stevenson] Prior to that year, TMs were registered on a local basis.

There are a few reasons for multiple dates when it comes to trademark registrations.

(1) There is the Reich wide registration of trademarks in 1894. This includes trademarks that were registered locally prior to 1894.

(2) Trademarks have a limited life and must be re-registered at some point.

(3) A change in the legal, corporate name of a company requires a re-registration.

(4) A purchase of a company and a merger of that company into the purchasing company requires a re-registration.

The following re-registration was granted to Uhrenfabrik Mühlheim vorm R. Schnekenburger GmbH, the successor company to RSM. It is dated 1899. This is an example of either (3) or (4), above.


1633448391366.png

One of the limitations of the mikrolisk site, as an example, is that it sometimes refers to a later trademark based on a trademark re-registration as explained above.

John Hubby has some evidence that the RSM logo (not necessarily the registered trademark) was in use commencing with the purchase by Reinhold Schnekenburger of the Rupert Amman business in early 1882, changing the name to Uhrenfabrik R. Schnekenburger, Mühlheim.

As a result, as I mentioned earlier, we should be cautious in stating that 1894 was the first date that the RSM rose logo was registered.

Regards.
 

Yahagi

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new2clocks - glad you refer to it.

It is difficult for me to take a position on the local / national level.

The 1894 RSM mark shown comes from the same source as the one shown next to Makrt & Co



This is Deutscher Reichsanzeiger - there is only a difference of years ... 1894/1882. LFS is inscribed in 1881 and Lenzkirch in 1878.
As you rightly noticed - in 1899 there is a re-registration of the mark, but the owner changes there.
However, when browsing the sources, I do not remember that the same mark was 'extended' by the same owner. Rather, most manufacturers changed the signs, registered new ones (GB / CW / FMS ... etc). But the Lenzkirch that I found in 1878 was supposed to last until the end of production. I missed a re-registration.
But maybe I don't know something.

1894 as a ROSE registration does not fit my calculations so far. 'I would prefer' it to be 1891/2. But there is no reason to doubt that this is the first registration. Unless in 1894 Reinhold changed the company's ownership for some reason. I don't know such a fact, but maybe I don't know about something.
So although this 1894 does not suit me best - it gives it a 90% chance that it is the first registration after all.
I've written a lot before about why I think John Hubby's assumptions (with all due respect to his work) are wrong. I even made a graph that I showed on the forum in my country. I archive the RSM mechanisms and this chart contains information on how the found RSM mechanisms would be presented if the assumptions of John Hubby were applied. It would appear that the greatest production (the most mechanisms JH considers to be produced between 1882-3) was in the beginning.

I agree with my assumptions about technological changes, design of crates ... and some other arguments.

I must admit that I am still waiting and I would like to hear what John says that 1-30 was so short, and ROSE appeared basically from the beginning. The argument you mentioned that convinces.

My chart I mentioned.



Regards

wgJHuMnie.jpg
 

Hayson

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Re: R S M with Rose

John
Various information and photos which I hope will help.
On the quarter, half and 3-quarters, both hammers are struck, initiated by successive pins in the strike wheel. The second snail (behind the first) deactivates the second hammer on the hour by disengaging it from the strike wheel.

SV202724 Pendulum length top of hook to end of threaded part is 179 millimeters or 7 1/32 inches. The case is only a mantelpiece or table size. The ‘front of case’ photo I sent shows the whole case.
SV202725 is front plate view showing the second snail which implements the single gong hour strike.
SV202731 is overhead view with 2 gongs and hammers
SV202732 a further overhead view
SV202733 shows the activator arm for the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] hammer
SV202745 shows 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] hammer being de-activated
SV202739 shows arbor of 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] hammer fully deactivated and pin disengaged from the strike wheel.
SV202747 shows the normal position of the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] hammer arbor and the surface of the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] snail

Do not hesitate to ask for a better view of something; I have lived with it for some time and know what it does (but unfortunately don’t know the correct names of the pieces!!)

Des

View attachment 125966 View attachment 125967 View attachment 125968 View attachment 125969 View attachment 125970 View attachment 125971 View attachment 125972 View attachment 125973
Hi Desmond. I'm currently working on a customers clock which has the same movement as the one you posted pictures and explanations of back in 2012 ! I know it's been a long time so I realize it's a bit of a long shot that you read this note. The movement I'm working on has Geneva Stops mounted on the barrel of the strike train. I have my doubts about whether it was originally intended to be on that side of the clock or whether it had been moved from the Time side. After searching high and low your post was the only one I could find with pictures of the same movement. Unfortunately I can't tell whether yours has the Geneva stops or not. If you or anyone reading this can clarify I'd be grateful. Thanks.
 

Hayson

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Hi Desmond. I'm currently working on a customers clock which has the same movement as the one you posted pictures and explanations of back in 2012 ! I know it's been a long time so I realize it's a bit of a long shot that you read this note. The movement I'm working on has Geneva Stops mounted on the barrel of the strike train. I have my doubts about whether it was originally intended to be on that side of the clock or whether it had been moved from the Time side. After searching high and low your post was the only one I could find with pictures of the same movement. Unfortunately I can't tell whether yours has the Geneva stops or not. If you or anyone reading this can clarify I'd be grateful. Thanks.
Photo of barrel with stops attached.

IMG_2093.JPG
 

ChimeTime

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I picked one up myself last weekend.... it might need cleaning.
Once the case was cleaned, the imprint of another movement holder was visible on the rear panel, so this may not be the original movement.

RSM1.jpg rsm8.jpg rsm2.jpg rsm5.jpg rsm4.jpg rsm7.jpg
 
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Yahagi

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Welcome
This is a very interesting clock. There is very little RSM for weight. Even fewer with movement numbers greater than 50,000. And even fewer RSM clocks for just one weight. You have a really unique clock.

The chest - as you have correctly noticed - is from another clock. But the mount is RSM.
I have a request:
Could you please take more pictures of the mechanism itself? And give me the exact number, please?

Thanks a lot.
regards
 

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