RSM Rose Logo (Schnekenburger, Mühlheim)

Discussion in 'General Clock Discussions' started by Chick Curry, May 12, 2005.

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  1. John Hubby

    John Hubby Senior Administrator Emeritus
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    Arla, welcome to the NAWCC Message Board! Thanks very much for posting your inquiry and the photos of your Jahresuhr Sylvester torsion clock. To make this easy to understand, I'll answer each of your questions individually.
    No, it had no association at all with Schnekenburger. The escapement design was patented in 1897 by J. Christian Bauer, and manufactured at his cousin Carl Bauer's factory in Fürth. The movement is actually based on the earlier detent escapement design year clocks patented by Wilhelm Köhler and J.C. Bauer that "were" made for a short time by R. M. Schnekenburger, however there are differences certainly in the escapement and also in some details of the gears.

    The clocks made by Schnekenburger were produced in 1894 and 1895, of which about 600 were completed by September or October of 1895. However, Schnekenburger was having financial difficulties and sales were slow, so Köhler and Bauer (who had invested money into the manufacture) decided to move the manufacturing from Mühlhiem to Carl Bauer's factory in Fürth, which was done before the end of 1895 and production resumed there by January 1896. Advertisements by Carl Bauer were placed in trade magazines in February 1896 extolling the virtues of these clocks and also promoting his use of the word "Sylvester" which was used to denote the new year, thus indicating a year-clock. That logo was NOT used for the continuing production of the Köhler-Bauer patent clocks, of which about another 600 were made from early 1896 to perhaps late 1897 or into 1898. Those clocks are all stamped with the "RSM with Rose" Schnekenburger logo, which must have been used by agreement.

    There is confusion about the Köhler-Bauer detent escapement clocks and the Jahresuhr Sylvester duplex escapement clocks, largely due to the similar appearance of the movements and the nearly identical pendulums used, but also that essentially identical cases of several designs were used for both types of clock. Although you did not ask about the case for your clock, it is not original but a very well made German box clock design from the 1920s to which the movement has been adapted. Here is a photo of a typical original case for both the Schnekenburger and the Bauer clocks:

    630 Front.jpg
    There were larger, smaller and more elaborate cases than this one but all were of the Altdeutsche design style.

    Your clock was made in 1898 based on the serial number.

    The words "Jahresuhr Sylvester" are "Year-Clock Sylvester", the second word being trademarked by Carl Bauer. The words "Patentiert in Alles Culturstaten" translates to "Patented in all Developed Countries".

    My data show that only about 350 were made, of which I have now documented 12, so it could be considered rare. I should mention that many of the cases originally used were subject to damage from woodworm and have been lost over the years. Of the 12 Bauer duplex clocks I have documented, only 7 are in their original cases.

    These are wonderful and interesting clocks especially for those interested in torsion pendulum designs, being that the Schnekenburger and the Bauer clocks were the only full striking torsion pendulum wall clocks ever made.

    I will leave your post and my response here with the Schnekenburger clocks so that it can be seen and understood by anyone interested in one of the most insteresting stories of Schnekenburger's clockmaking career. I also am copying them to the 400-Day forum for information there.
     
  2. Tom Macfie

    Tom Macfie Registered User

    Feb 12, 2018
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    upload_2018-2-15_20-19-41.png

    I'm new to all of this and excited I figured out the way to post this photo. UM Muller clock. This photo is from the back plate. Lion. Tail down. Below that UM and then below that 198528. There is another number on right side of back plate. P 438. I think the six digit code can help us date the clock. More photos to come. I want to know how to oil the right parts. What oil? How much? Where to apply. Thanks. Tom
     
  3. Tom Macfie

    Tom Macfie Registered User

    Feb 12, 2018
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    Now I'll try a second photo: the back of the plate. Where to I oil? I will follow another link sent a few days ago.

    In this photo, lion, UM and number lower left hand side.

    Thanks. Tom

    upload_2018-2-15_20-27-2.png
     
  4. gintarasb64

    gintarasb64 Registered User

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    I proudly present my first very beautiful and gorgeous RSM clock. When I started to look for information about RSM with rose logo I found this thread and already read every post from the first one. Very interesting story developed during more than 10 years... Sharing pictures of my 2 weight regulator, maybe would be useful for your records :)
    Best regards
    Gintaras

    20180614_190422.jpg 20180614_190431.jpg 20180614_211546.jpg 20180613_213111.jpg 20180613_210555.jpg 20180613_132309.jpg 20180613_132315.jpg 20180613_210510.jpg 20180613_210537.jpg
     
  5. John Hubby

    John Hubby Senior Administrator Emeritus
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    Tom, welcome to the NAWCC Message Board!! First of all, I would like to apologize for this very tardy response, I notice your posts were at a time I wasn't available so I obviously missed them then and just now came across them..

    Thanks for your inquiry and for posting the photos of your Uhrenfabrik Mühlheim Müller & Co. (UMMC) movement. Based on the serial number, which is actually 198528_08, it was made in early 1927, about eight to ten months after UMMC started using this particular "tail down" lion logo. The reason I say the entire serial number has the "08" added is that UMMC continued using Reinhold Schnekenburger's batch numbering system when they took over the company in 1900. Even after the "RSM with Rose" Schnekenburger logo was replaced by the "UM Lion" logo after their factory suffered a cataclysmic boiler explosion in October 1913, the serial numbering system was continued. You mention that on the right lower part of the back plate you found the numbers "P438", in fact what is there is the pendulum length in centimeters "P43", and the batch series number "8". Each batch contained 30 clocks, thus you will find numbers from 1 to 30, that match the last digit or two of the serial number.

    It will be very much appreciated if you could show us photos of the front of the clock, the dial, and the rod gong assembly to help with documentation. Please post larger photos, we have no problem with your using large photos as our software will re-size them to display properly. What I can tell from the photos already provided, serial number and pendulum info is that you have a wall mounted Westminster chiming clock that uses a rod gong for the sound. With the photos mentioned we should be able to provide more info about your clock.
     
  6. John Hubby

    John Hubby Senior Administrator Emeritus
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    Gintaras, thanks very much for posting the photos of your clock. Based on the serial number this one was made by Uhrenfabrik Mühlheim Müller & Co. (UMMC) in 1909. It is one of the last Vienna Regulator style clocks made by them with a weight driven movement, I have only one other made after yours in my data, also made in 1909. It appears your clock is complete and original, the only point I noted about all the parts is that the minute hand appears to have had its "tail" broken off. Normally there would have been an extension about 2 cm long, you can see the broken stub and also that the hand appears to still be bent somewhat. It isn't difficult to find replacement hands should you wish to do that, or you could make an extension by looking at the same designs on other clocks in this thread.

    It's quite an impressive clock and appears to be in excellent condition.
     
  7. MuensterMann

    MuensterMann Registered User

    Mar 23, 2008
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    #457 MuensterMann, Aug 16, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2019
    I am working on a Mueller-Schneckenberger RMS with Rose symbol. It is from a wall clock. No name gong. I am trying to date the clock. Here is a photo of the plate. 103017 is the serial number. Batch 7. And, for pendulum 33. Where would those numbers place this clock on the time line? Thanks!

    place logo.jpg Looking at a previous post in this thread, my guess would be 1902, perhaps by Muller.
     
  8. Tatyana

    Tatyana Registered User

    Jan 2, 2016
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    Hi!
    I will assume 1904.
    Cases with serial numbers 96_419 and 103_513:

    96_419.jpg 103_513.jpg

    BR, Tatyana
     
  9. MuensterMann

    MuensterMann Registered User

    Mar 23, 2008
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    Here are photos of other parts of the clock. The crown is missing. I am still not sure if this clock serial number points to 1902 or 1904 as I saw two posts that produce different dates. However, it is one of them!!! Maybe the photos below shed more light and information.

    dial.jpg front.jpg gong.jpg side.jpg inside.jpg
     
  10. Isaac

    Isaac Registered User

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    Interestingly, the gong looks very similar to Junghan's Kaisergong. Nice looking clock!
     
  11. Tatyana

    Tatyana Registered User

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    If you look closely, you can see that there was a bracket movement:

    92_113.jpg 108_823.jpg

    The Kaisergong was installed later

    gong.jpg

    BR, Tatyana
     
  12. MuensterMann

    MuensterMann Registered User

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    Are you saying that the gong may not be original to the clock? Something is going on as the fit is not good as I am putting the movement back in the case.
     
  13. Marcelo Checoni

    Marcelo Checoni New Member

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    I found a picture of a german catalog at an Indian site where this "pocket watch" alarm clock is mentioned as "Fortuna Wecker" (Fortune Alarm Clock)

    catalogo1.jpg catalogo2.jpg catalogo3.jpg
     
  14. EricH

    EricH New Member

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    Hello, I stumbled across this thread while attempting repair of a clock my mother had originally from the Czech Republic. Unfortunately it had been knocked off the wall during a storm, the case needed some repair but the mechanism looks to be in good working order (and kept fairly close time earlier). The case is quite different, not as ornate as the others in the thread but would be thankful for whatever information you might have on this clock (Serial number 3474 - 24). Would you know what the R = A is on the pendulum?

    IMG_4239.JPG IMG_4240.JPG IMG_4241.JPG IMG_4242.JPG IMG_4243.JPG

    One additional related question; are there any recommendations for the hanging of the clock? Given it had let go earlier, I'm not trusting the older holes and somewhat reluctant to make new ones.
    Thank you in advance!

    Eric IMG_4244.JPG
     
  15. MuensterMann

    MuensterMann Registered User

    Mar 23, 2008
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    The R and A are for Retard and Avance, French for Slow and Fast. The arrow points downward to the rating nut - which controls the length of the effective pendulum by making the bob go up or down.
     
  16. macaw

    macaw Registered User
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    P6280001.JPG P6280024.JPG P6280025.JPG P6290034.JPG P6290033.JPG
    This is a very French RSM clock. Could they have bought the clock from a French supplier and then stamped their own logo on it? The movement also looks very French but it's missing everything that makes a French clock easy to set up including the markings on the gears. Last question- does anyone have an idea of what the 2 guys would have been holding?
     
  17. Walt Wallgren

    Walt Wallgren Registered User
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    That is a strange one. That is the small RSM logo which wasn't used until after 1900 when RSM was taken over by Meuller. The S/N with the batch number of 30 off to the side fits with the RSM numbering system. I don't know what the 2 4's are below the S/N. Also, it looks as if the holes for the winding arbors were plugged and then re-punched.

    Hopefully, John Hubby will be along and maybe shed some light on this one.

    Walt
     
  18. macaw

    macaw Registered User
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    In a normal French movement the 2 - 4s would tell me the correct pendulum length (center of the bob to the suspension spring bending point) witch in this case should be 117mm (4 pounce + 4 ligne) but this pendulum is about 30mm longer.
     
  19. new2clocks

    new2clocks Registered User
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    FWIW, this is the first round, French style movement with the RSM rose trademark shown on this thread.

    Regards
     

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