RSM Rose Logo (Schnekenburger, Mühlheim)

Discussion in 'General Clock Discussions' started by Chick Curry, May 12, 2005.

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  1. Chick Curry

    Chick Curry Registered User
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    A customer brought a classic Becker into my shop, at least that's what I thought. Weights, face, pendulum, case, but, no anchor with G B anywhere. Slipped the movement out, on the back is a little flower with a leaf on each side of it's stem. Just under the leaves is a 'R' on the left and an 'S' on the right side. The number 81670 space 20 is along the bottom.
    Any ideas what it is, it looks as if you could just about swap movement parts with a GB.

    still learning

    Chick Curry 146736
     
  2. MUN CHOR-WENG

    MUN CHOR-WENG Registered User

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    Sure looks like a G Becker

    Chick Curry,

    Your description of the logo is very similar to that found on the back plate of clocks made by R M Schnekenburger except that it has a letter M under the stalk of the leaf.
    Schnekenburger was not a well known maker of Vienna Regulator like Becker etc and his name is not found in most of the standard reference books on Vienna Regulator. However he did produce some remarkable spring driven year-going and striking torsion pendulum clocks housed in standard-size Vienna Regulator case. All these long running clocks made by him were fitted with
    one of the three rare escapements, namely detent, duplex or verge.

    Mun C.W.
     
  3. zepernick

    zepernick Deceased

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    Sure looks like a G Becker

    Greetings Chick, hi Mun! This is one of those delightfully messy matters that led to the famous saying that "a rose is a rose is awry." Basically, it went like this.

    The firm Rup. [for Rupert] Amann Fabrik für Federzug- & Gewicht-Regulateure, of Mülhheim [on the] Donau, in Württemberg, founded in 1867, was sold in 1882 to Reinhold Schnekenburger. It continued as R. Schnekenburger GmbH a.d. Donau -- with the rose with the RSM as a trademark. Then amid financial problems, what by 1900 had become the Uhrenfabrik Mühlheim vorm. [vormals -- earlier known as] R. Schnekenburger was taken over by a creditor, Albert Müller. And on 10 September 1900 (no doubt a semi-sunny day with a touch of rain) became the "Uhrenfabrik Mühlheim, Müller & Co." Indeed.

    Now while the name with the rose changed, so-called regulators were made with it from
    after 1882 dowm at least to the Great War. But more specifically, the Uhrenfabrik Mühlheim, Müller & Co. continued to use the earlier Schnekenburger rose as a mark -- yet without the M under the stem. There's a full-page ad for example from 1913 (reproduced on page 77 of Kahlert's _Uhren 1913_, available through the NAWCC's Library & Research Center) for the Uhrenfabrik Mühlheim, Müller & Co. which shows two marks, one on either side of the bold "Uhrenfabrik Mühlheim." The first is of their lion with the U.M. underneath. The other is of the rose with an R on one side of the stem, and an S on the other. And they made just about everything -- grandfather clocks and wall clocks and alarms and "loose" good quality movements (which others could stick in cases) and so on. Whew. Regards, Duck.
     
  4. Richard T.

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    Sure looks like a G Becker

    Duck,

    It's always a pleasure to read your replies. They are always thoroughly researched, comprehensive and complete. Very educational and worthy of retention for future reference.

    Thanks and I look forward to reading your future posts.

    Regards,

    Richard T.
     
  5. Chick Curry

    Chick Curry Registered User
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    Sure looks like a G Becker

    Thank you very much, all of you. After rreading you messages I took a better look at the little rose and sure enough the small squarish thing at the bottom is an 'M'.

    Cleaned the 'pseudo GB' up and it's running just fine. I did shoot a pix of the back plate.

    Chick
     
  6. popeye

    popeye Registered User

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    Grandfather Clock Project-Need Infor/History/Reference?

    Picked up this Grandfather clock. It is German clock. On the back of movement there is a lion D.M.Trademark. There is work to be done. Pendulum that is with it broken and on metal bar. Seems like it should be wood. Wobdering if someone can direct me to the name, mmaker, year or anything. I would love to try to get pictures of original clock. I am attaching somes pics. Advice very much appreciated, thank you.
    209.jpg 210.jpg 211.jpg 212.jpg
     
  7. Richard T.

    Richard T. Deceased
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    Hi popeye,

    Is this the lion trademark that is on your clock movement?

    213.gif

    It is from Muller & Co. Mulheim Germany.

    If this is not the trademark give us a picture of it.

    Regards,

    Richard T.
     
  8. popeye

    popeye Registered User

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    #8 popeye, Mar 5, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 7, 2017
    Grandfather Clock Project-Need Infor/History/Reference?

     
  9. zepernick

    zepernick Deceased

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    #9 zepernick, Mar 5, 2006
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    Grandfather Clock Project-Need Infor/History/Reference?

    Popeye -- If you use the 'Find' above, and type in <RSM duck> (without the <>) you'll find some information about the Uhrenfabrik Mühlheim, Müller & Co. For more complete information there's an entry in the now standard (2005) reference, Schmid's _Lexikon der Deutschen Uhrenindustrie 1850-1980_ on pages 518ff. The NAWCC's Library & Research Center has the _Lexikon_ and could make copies of these three pages for you. I'm not aware of any catalogue material for them. Regards, Duck P.S. Richard, whenever I see that lion above the UM I think of football in Michigan. Yes, well...<g>.
     
  10. popeye

    popeye Registered User

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    Thanks,Duck. That is a start. Real detective work.
     
  11. Bob Baxter

    Bob Baxter Registered User

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    RSM Rose Logo (Schnekenburger, Mühlheim)

    I have just serviced two Vienna Regulators and would like some information on the makers, and also a recommended book for finding this info on my own. The ID's are as follows:
    1- A rose with the initials RMS
    2- A. W. and Co. Frieburg, Schl.
    I'm assuming they were made in the late 1800's?
    Any assistance would be appreciated.
    Thanks
     
  12. Scottie-TX

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    Re: Vienna Regulator ID

    "Clock & Watch Trademark Index of European Origin" by Karl Kochmann, by "Clock Works Press
     
  13. lofty

    lofty Registered User

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    Re: Vienna Regulator ID

    Hi Bob, I think the rose and RMS stands for R M Schneckenberger (not sure if my spelling is quite right) circa 1890. I cant help you with the other.

    Lofty
     
  14. Richard T.

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    Re: Vienna Regulator ID

    Greetings all,

    Kochmann lists RMS + rose as Mueller & Co. Muelheim/Donau Germany
    (page 443, 2001 edition)

    Regards,

    Richard T.
     
  15. John Hubby

    John Hubby Senior Administrator Emeritus
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    Re: Vienna Regulator ID

    In this instance Kochmann is wrong. Doug Stevenson has posted somewhere about the relationship between Mueller, Schnekenberger, and Christian Bauer but I can't find it. Perhaps he will join the discussion here and provide more authoritative info. Schnekenberger were successors to Mueller as I recall, but also Christian Bauer was involved. As best is known at this instant, the rose with RMS logo belongs exclusively to Schnekenberger. It is found on all of the full striking 400-Day wall clocks made by Schnekenberger under the Köhler-Bauer patents, and many gravity pendulum vienna style wall clocks, mostly spring driven.

    The "A. W. & Co" of Freiburg is A. Willmann & Co. They started in 1872 to make gravity pendulum vienna style wall clocks as well as other models. They worked for Anton Harder from late 1878 to early 1880 attempting to commercialize Harder's torsion pendulum clocks (not successful), and in 1899 merged with Gustav Becker and four other companies to form "Vereinigte Freiburger Uhrenfabriken Vormals Gustav Becker". That company operated under the Becker name until early 1926 when it was taken over by Gebrüder Junghans.

    John Hubby
     
  16. jmclaugh

    jmclaugh Registered User

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    Re: Vienna Regulator ID

    John,
    I too would have said it was Mueller, it is also listed as such on the antique horology site who although don't list Kochmann as a source one can't be sure they don't. Your comments about Schnekenberger in agreement with Lofty are therefore of much interest and hopefully Doug can expand on.
     
  17. Richard T.

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    Thanks John for the correction and up-date. I too thought that there was additional information from Doug on this trademark. I did more than one search and could not find the information. I knew that Kochmann had errors, just didn't know that this was one of them.

    Thanks and Best Regards,

    Richard T.
     
  18. MUN CHOR-WENG

    MUN CHOR-WENG Registered User

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    Re: Vienna Regulator ID

    Doug did comment on this topic of RMS in a post on May 12 2005.
    I reproduce that post of his below:

    " Greetings Chick, hi Mun! This is one of those delightfully messy matters that led to the famous saying that "a rose is a rose is awry." Basically, it went like this.

    The firm Rup. [for Rupert] Amann Fabrik für Federzug- & Gewicht-Regulateure, of Mülhheim [on the] Donau, in Württemberg, founded in 1867, was sold in 1882 to Reinhold Schnekenburger. It continued as R. Schnekenburger GmbH a.d. Donau -- with the rose with the RSM as a trademark. Then amid financial problems, what by 1900 had become the Uhrenfabrik Mühlheim vorm. [vormals -- earlier known as] R. Schnekenburger was taken over by a creditor, Albert Müller. And on 10 September 1900 (no doubt a semi-sunny day with a touch of rain) became the "Uhrenfabrik Mühlheim, Müller & Co." Indeed.

    Now while the name with the rose changed, so-called regulators were made with it from
    after 1882 dowm at least to the Great War. But more specifically, the Uhrenfabrik Mühlheim, Müller & Co. continued to use the earlier Schnekenburger rose as a mark -- yet without the M under the stem. There's a full-page ad for example from 1913 (reproduced on page 77 of Kahlert's _Uhren 1913_, available through the NAWCC's Library & Research Center) for the Uhrenfabrik Mühlheim, Müller & Co. which shows two marks, one on either side of the bold "Uhrenfabrik Mühlheim." The first is of their lion with the U.M. underneath. The other is of the rose with an R on one side of the stem, and an S on the other. And they made just about everything -- grandfather clocks and wall clocks and alarms and "loose" good quality movements (which others could stick in cases) and so on. Whew. Regards, Duck. "



    Mun C.W.
     
  19. Bob Baxter

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    Re: Vienna Regulator ID

    WOW!
    Many thanks for the information folks, looks like the RMS regulator was then made between 1882 and 1900.
    Several of your replies showed you did some homework to find the information and this is much appreciated and impressive. As usual, a great message board.
     
  20. Bob Baxter

    Bob Baxter Registered User

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    Re: Vienna Regulator ID

    Mr. Hubby, can we determine (in the case of the Willmann clock) if, after the merger with Becker, the respective makers continued to use their own logo, or switched to the Becker anchor?
     
  21. John Hubby

    John Hubby Senior Administrator Emeritus
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    Re: Vienna Regulator ID

    Bob, the trade press at the time indicates that two logos came out of the 1899 merger, being Gustav Becker and VFU (and several variations on these two). We have not found any evidence that any of the five companies that were "absorbed" in the merger other than Becker continued making clocks under their previous logos.

    Mun, thanks for finding Doug's text. One thing that has been found since 2005 is some claim by Christian Bauer regarding their participation with Schnekenberger in the late 1800's. This includes an engraving showing the Bauer factory and articles in the AGU (German Clockmaker's Journal). The AGU only became available in searchable form within the past six months, and there is a HUGE amount of info there that is still being sorted out. It was from this source we found that Harder evidently was unaware that Jehlin had filed his torsion pendulum patent until after the fact, also records to show that Harder's Austria-Hungary patent was sold to F. A. L. DeGruyter in January 1883 along with the Jehlin patent and Harder's British and American patents.

    John Hubby
     
  22. Paul Arsenault

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    Identification help & escape wheel repairs

    Can anyone help with identifying the maker and age of this movement? If possible where can I find an escape wheel for the same. I have searched Time Savers and Merritt's with no luck. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks..Paul
     

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  23. tymfxr

    tymfxr Registered User
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    Re: Identification help

    Paul, a full picture of the front and back of the movement would help much more plus one looking down between the plates. Why do you need the escape wheel? Damaged? Gone? Explain please, if it is damaged-might be able to be repaired or made.
    Mike C.
     
  24. harold bain

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    Re: Identification help

    Paul, I can't see that trademark well enough to help (if it is one). The movement looks quite German. Is the wheel missing or broken? Having another made is one option if you have the original for dimensions.
     
  25. Paul Arsenault

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    Re: Identification help

    Mike & Harold: Here are the pictures. The wheel is damaged. One of the teeth tips is broken ever so slightly but enough to make it stop. I do have all the parts although they are not in the movement in these pictures. I hope this helps. Thanks..Paul
     

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  26. tymfxr

    tymfxr Registered User
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    Re: Identification help

    I think Harold is right about it being German I don't have my books handy but someone else will be on here soon to identify it. You can have the wheel repaired. Check your NAWCC mart for those who do that kind of work.
    Mike C.
     
  27. ogee_guy

    ogee_guy Registered User

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    Re: Identification help

    I just got a french picture clock brevete movement and that looks french to me about 1885
     
  28. Richard T.

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    Greetings All,

    If my eyes don't deceive me that is a rose and R M S which is Mueller & Co. Germany. It has been discussed on the MB many times before.

    Regards,

    Richard T.
     
  29. John Hubby

    John Hubby Senior Administrator Emeritus
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    #29 John Hubby, Apr 19, 2007
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2011
    Re: Identification help

    Richard and all, this logo is incorrectly reported in Kochmann as belonging to Mueller & Co. It actually belongs to R. M. Schnekenburger from 1882 to 1900, then to Uhrenfabrik Mülheim, Müller & Co (but sometimes without the "M" under the stem) from then unti about WW1. Here's the full story:
    For those interested this was posted in this thread

    John Hubby
     
  30. John Hubby

    John Hubby Senior Administrator Emeritus
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    Re: Identification help

    Paul, I forgot to mention that from records I've documented to date it appears this movement was made in the 1890's. Don't have enough info yet to get it closer than that.

    Also, is there a case and dial? If so photos would be appreciated.

    John Hubby
     
  31. Richard T.

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    Re: Identification help

    Hi John and all,

    As soon as I had posted my reply I felt that it was incorrect. I tried to find duck's posting but I haven't had much luck with using the search feature on the new MB. On one search I had 4000 hits....:bang: Anyway, thanks John and I have marked that entry in Kochmann and printed the correct information and placed it there.

    Best Regards,

    Richard T.
     
  32. Paul Arsenault

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    Re: Identification help

    John: Here is a picture of the case and dial. The bottom finial needs to be glued back in place.

    Thanks for all the input. I am waiting for my registration to mart. I'll look there for help on the repair of the escape wheel. Again thanks much...Paul
     

    Attached Files:

  33. johnboy

    johnboy Registered User

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    Re: Identification help

    Paul - Now that you have the movement identified you still need a replacement escapement wheel. I have a suggestion but don't know if this person is still in business. I have bought replacement gears and parts from him in the past. He has (or had) at that time many, many old clock movements that he sells parts from. He used to advertise in the Mart but I don't see his name in the latest Mart.
    Anyway try contacting
    Royce Shepard
    11906 Q Drive No.
    Battle Creek, Mi. 49014
    He will ask you to send the movement with several of the adjacent mating gears to match for a escapement wheel.
    Good luck.
    Johnboy
     
  34. LaBounty

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    Re: Identification help

    Sadly, Royce passed away several years ago. His family closed the business and stored the inventory until someone stepped forward who was willing to purchase it in its entirety. C&R Clock Shop was sold in May of 2006 and the parts are again available. The complete original movements are still being inventoried and should be available later this summer with a web site soon to follow.

    Paul-

    You have several options regarding your escape wheel. One bad tooth doesn't warrant replacing the whole gear. It is not very likely that you will find an exact perfect replacement even in the extensive antique parts inventory that Royce had. Any replacement will need to be slightly modified to fit and that could be more trouble than replacing one tooth. An article recently appeared in the NAWCC Bulletin which discusses how to deal with a damaged escape wheel. It can be found Here under "Escape Wheel Problems".

    If you would rather not try and fix this escape wheel yourself, there are many on this board who can do this work.

    And, if all else fails, you can contact me regarding a replacement.

    Good luck with it!
     
  35. Paul Arsenault

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    David: Thanks for the information in that link. I am going to try to get a picture of the wheel's short tooth. After reading that article I believe that the wheel will need only to be tipped then debured. Once you get a look at it you might be able to advise better. Thanks..Paul
     
  36. LaBounty

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    Re: Identification help

    Hey Paul-

    I'm glad you found the information useful! There was another thread recently which dealt with the same problem... Click Here. It talks about stretching teeth as well as tipping but also mentions that the escapement will need adjusting following this procedure.

    I'll keep an eye out for your picture!
     
  37. John Hubby

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    Re: Identification help

    For all, one thing I notice from the "still limited" database I have for these clocks, is that so far all of them have spring barrel movements, none have weight drive. IF anyone has a Schnekenburger with weight drive please let me know.

    Paul, regarding the messed up escape tooth, I've replaced individual teeth before with excellent success. It is not difficult especially when most of the original tooth is still there as seems to be in your clock. Kind of hard to explain without a drawing, but basically what I do is the following:

    1) File a replacement to the same profile and thickness as one of the good teeth. You can trace one of the good ones on the piece of brass you are using with a graver or other sharp pointed tool. Leave it just slightly oversize. The length (root to tip) should be the same as from the INSIDE of the wheel rim to the tip of a good tooth.

    2) Cut the bad tooth to about half its original height, then file one side to half thickness, including filing a notch in the wheel rim.

    3) Place the replacement in the notch in correct position, mark where the top of the old tooth stub is on the new tooth. Now file the new tooth below that mark to half thickness. Match with the filed side of the original tooth, you should have a very tight lap joint from half the tooth height to the inside of the wheel rim.

    4) Tin both the filed notch and the filed section of the new tooth, put them together and heat to provide a strong soldered joint. I use Tix solder for this step. If you are careful with your filing you should wind up with a nearly invisible joint.

    5) Trim the soldered tooth and file to final profile. Check the final truth of the wheel on a lathe if you have one, you can also do this with a drill press or even a pin vise.

    This provides a fully strong tooth and will save the original escape wheel. I have rescued some really badly damaged escape wheels using this method.

    John Hubby
     
  38. shutterbug

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    Re: Identification help

    Wow - this post has some great stuff, and I'm afraid it will be invisible to anyone searching for help with escape wheels. Paul, maybe you could request a change of thread title from the administrators so this information would be easy to find.
     
  39. Paul Arsenault

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    Re: Identification help

    John: That's a boatload of information. I'm not sure if these old shaky hands can handle that. I'm going to think on that process very carefully before i attempt this type of repair. It does seem rather simple and sounds like it would work perfectly. Thanks so much for the info. What do you make of the case and the dial? Any idea what would be missing on the bottom of the door column left and right sides.

    shutterbug: I'm understand what you mean about the thread but i'm not sure how to accomplish what you suggested.

    Thanks to all......Paul
     
  40. harold bain

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    Re: Identification help

    Paul looks like it may have had small rosettes on the bottom of the door column.
     
  41. shutterbug

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    Re: Identification help & escape wheel repairs

    Thanks to Jeff for changing the post title to reflect the escape wheel information!
    Great ideas!
     
  42. Paul Arsenault

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    Harold: Thanks, I thought it might be something of that sort. I looked in all my books and also the internet. I can't find anything made of walnut. I might have to take birch and stain it. ..Again thanks...Paul
     
  43. Scottie-TX

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    Re: Identification help & escape wheel repairs

    PAUL:
    If you have not yet glued the finials - don't.
    If you already have - consider ungluing them.
    Finials on these clocks were not glued but press - fit for easy removal.
     
  44. Paul Arsenault

    Paul Arsenault Registered User
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    Re: Identification help & escape wheel repairs

    Scottie:eek::eek: 24 hours too late. I glued them last night. I wish I would have not been so quick to act. Any idea why they should be easily removable ?Thanks...Paul
     
  45. Paul Arsenault

    Paul Arsenault Registered User
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    Re: Identification help

    John: I finally got up enough nerve to parctice on a spare wheel i had from a Shatz53. I followed the steps you outlined and i think it came out ok. It's my first attempt. Not sure if my friend will let me do this to his antique mentioned in this post. I think he is taking it to a local clockmaker for repair of the wheel then back to me. I'm not sure who he is or what kind of work he does. Anyhow here ya go... and i hope this does not make the "WALL OF SHAME" Thanks..Paul
     

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  46. Paul Arsenault

    Paul Arsenault Registered User
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    David: I was not able to get a picture of the wheel. I did make an attempt at a practice repair. Take a look if you have time....Thanks..Paul
     
  47. LaBounty

    LaBounty Registered User
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    Re: Identification help & escape wheel repairs

    Hey Paul-

    I think your practice repair came out very well for a first attempt!

    It should be possible to use some sandpaper to remove the excess solder and make the repair nearly invisible. Using a file isn't a good idea since the file will fill up with the soft solder which will be very difficult to remove. I use buff sticks for this, which are available from most clock supply houses, and they work very well.

    Nice job!
     
  48. Scottie-TX

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    Re: Identification help & escape wheel repairs

    Also, I know much has been said about soldering techniques here but that was a year ago and is always a good topic: Someone or more here improved my soldering techniques immensely when they counselled to coat with flux ONLY the surfaces where you want solder. I and maybe others also coat areas where you don't want solder - with a light film of oil. That reduces cleanup time dramatically
     
  49. Paul Arsenault

    Paul Arsenault Registered User
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    Re: Identification help & escape wheel repairs

    Scottie: Earlier in the post when John mentioned the Tix solder, something i never heard of, i looked on the net and they have an ANTI flux. That is what i should have used along with flux. I used rosin core solder which i find is not the right kind. Using that allowed it to flow everywhere. Oh well live and learn with the practice pieces. Thanks for all the info guys it certainly is helpful to a novice such as myself...Paul
     
  50. Paul Arsenault

    Paul Arsenault Registered User
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    Re: Identification help & escape wheel repairs

    I did get the tooth replaced and filed to shape. With no pendulum the clock ticks away nice and smooth with no hesitation. With the pendulum in place it runs for a few minutes then stops. I do believe it is in beat. The swing is even with the tick/tock. Can anyone tell me which suspension spring should be in this movement? Possibly old and weak? Might i be overlooking another problem?.. Thanks..Paul
     

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