Round movement run in stand ideas

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by hemioutlaw, Jan 30, 2017.

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  1. hemioutlaw

    hemioutlaw Registered User
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    I'm fixing to work on my first round movement and I'm going to need to make a run in stand as none of my existing stands are very well suited for a round movement I've got some ideas in my head but thought maybe some of y'all expert's could show me what y'all are using and save me a few lumps. 1485753706432-476755882.jpg 1485753770299-485669266.jpg 1485753810797-1273603587.jpg
     
  2. leeinv66

    leeinv66 Moderator
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    I'll move this over to the clock repair forum for better exposure.
     
  3. RJSoftware

    RJSoftware Registered User

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    #3 RJSoftware, Jan 30, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2017
    Hello Hemi-outlaw.

    The terminology for a round French clock is rolaunt (spelling?). But I'm uncertain if yours is French because it does not have the typical screwed down bushing blocks. I call them relief bushing as they provide a relief to the assembly process. French clocks have very fine and brittle (glass hard steel) pivots. The smallness is to provide more accuracy as they create less friction when turning. But seems like a bad compromise to me.

    That being said the one thing I found most important about the re-assembly of these clocks is to make sure the post do not hang or snap when closing the plates together. Many are pinned at the post and the pin causes the post hole to flair at the hole where pin is inserted. So burnishing the bumps down to where the plate will drop on it's own/gravity is a good thing. Otherwise if you have to press down the top plate while trying to align the ever so delicate pivots into holes and have to overcome by excess pressure to "snap" the plate on, well you can see the probability of a bent/broken pivots is high.

    On yours stalling when out of case, the typical thing suspected is some torsion being introduce to the plates as the mounting screws are tightened.

    This could be solved a couple of ways. Either provide more side shake to effected train gears (time train) ((side shake is gears ability to angularly compensate by bushing hole opening to pivot ratio) or in other words ( having bushing holes a little larger)).

    Or, bend mounting feet so that each touch equally when mounting and no plate bending torsion is introduced. A typical Korean thin plate clock is susceptible to this. Most French clocks have thick plates.

    If this is of no help the next step is to remove the motion works (external gears that turn hands) and see if they are cause. Sometimes the hand bushings might be causing friction in the dial hole especially if someone did a insufficient fitting job of replacement hands. Test the movement for stalling when installed in clock and if conditions improve inspect the motion works and/or hands for binding. Sometimes even the minute hand can catch on hour hand.

    Next after that is bad bushing. With power down wiggle the main gears and examine pivot tips as they wiggle. A worn out bushing hole (usually an oval as pressure wears out one side of bushing hole) will allow the pivot tip to move back and forth. The rule is if pivot tip wiggles 1/3 or more of it's diameter then that bushing hole needs to be repaired. The definitive rule of side shake determination is to stand a clock gear upright with pivot in bushing hole and allow it to stand. The proper amount of "side shake" is around 5 degrees of leaning angle. You might think that a gear should stand straight up precise but side shake is a necessary slack to allow a mesh to find a comfortable fit. Teeth slide into each other's surfaces and often in manufacture bushing holes are not perfectly aligned. End shake is gears ability to float side to side from one plate to other and gear alignment is to be considered then. Not really a clock issue but more often for watches and/or alarm clocks.

    Next step is to remove the escapement and do a high speed test and low speed test. Basically with the escapement (palettes/anchor) removed the clock can free spin. Winding up tight with oil in the bushings and "let her rip" allows you to listen for pops and grinding noise. If it whirrs with even smooth pitch (no pops or grinding) then it passes the high speed test. If not examine for bent pivots, worn bushing holes, bent or broken teeth etc. A good clue of what gears are effected is easy to see by what gear is revolving in sequence with what pop/grinding noise. Trundles -wires for pinions (you have none) are often suspect as they wear and badly mesh.

    The high speed test integrates with the low speed test as when the spring is nearly done (or a few clicks of strength) for just enough power to get the train to slowly turn, you examine where the train stops at. Mark the gears in enough spots with marker to establish where it has stopped and repeat process. You will be looking for a repeat stoppage with gears in same marked locations. The low speed test takes advantage of a bad mesh (2 teeth interact) or unknown condition (example bent pivot) where inertia can't overcome situation.

    There are also simple solutions such as beat being effected by a rocking clock -legs unstable and other situations such as wobbly table supporting the clock. But a good strong running clock is not soo touchy.

    RJ
     
  4. wow

    wow Registered User
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  5. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    I like this one, but use two of these for the round movement.
     
  6. JTD

    JTD Registered User

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    So do I.

    JTD
     
  7. hemioutlaw

    hemioutlaw Registered User
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    Thank you "RJSoftware" for the wealth of tips and knowledge you have provided and moving forward I will try to reprogram my brain and referr to movement's correctly as "Rolaunt" which won't necessarily be the easiest thing on earth for me being a CNC Lathe machinist for 30 years now and still going who is used to using terminiology like (round, spherical, cylindrical,, tubular, pipe, billet, etc.). Though I have accumulated an abundance of French clocks over the years many of which are requiring maintenance or repair I have yet to work on any of them but their day's of sitting there looking pretty but not running are numbered. The movement I pictured is actually a Seth Thomas and I'm curious if the terminology " Rolaunt" is applicable in the case of American movement's or even movement's of German origin.

    In response to "WOW" I appreciate the input and hadn't thought of that. I did make a bunch of these little jack stands in varying lengths but didn't make the hanging bracket that can be used in conjunction with these. I will admit that though I could get the jack stands to locate into the mounting holes I'm just a bit tentative to secure the movement this way but I will acknowledge and certainly see the logic from other reading I've done that replication of the normal "In Use" mounting while testing would have it's merits.

    Thank You

    14857942998722139908782.jpg
     
  8. doug sinclair

    doug sinclair Registered User

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    Pick up a simple hand vise such as you can find on line if you Google it. A well equipped tool store, or a goldsmith' supply, or gunsmith's supply should have these. Clamp the bottom pillar TIGHT, then put the hand vise into a bench vise. I made my own, and it works great. These can also be had on line, (but I'm not allowed to say where :whistle:).
     
  9. hemioutlaw

    hemioutlaw Registered User
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    In response to "Shutterbug and RTD", I was looking at those and already have a stand and it would work perfectly on the bottom of the movement but the top doesn't necessarily lend itself well to that because of the retard/advance rod support bracket. I guess I could remove it or better yet just clearance the center so the clamp contact's the plate. 14857955571321353557305.jpg
     
  10. JTD

    JTD Registered User

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    If you are going to commit the word to memory, it is actually 'roulant', not 'rolaunt'.

    Although the word is French, as you know, and is usually used in connection with French movements, I don't think there is any reason why it can't be applied to any round movement.

    JTD
     
  11. hemioutlaw

    hemioutlaw Registered User
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    Lol JTD,
    That would be a good idea.
     
  12. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    HERE's a simple suggestion that works for me.
     
  13. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    If it's French, it's "roulant". If it's American or English, it's "round". :whistle:
     
  14. doug sinclair

    doug sinclair Registered User

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    bangster,

    You said in the post that you linked to, showing your holder for French movements, that you had forgotten who gave you the idea. Modestly, say I, that it was me. I made mine out of aluminum, is the only difference.
     
  15. wow

    wow Registered User
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    Bang, I made one of those a couple of years ago, thanks to your post showing yours. I use it all the time on typical French "round" movements, but his looks to be a little different. The spring barrels, I believe, are screwed to the plate and are very close together. I am not sure the wood block holder would have room to attach to the pillar. That is an unusual movement. Not your normal Marti or other French movement. I've never seen one exactly like that one.
     
  16. hemioutlaw

    hemioutlaw Registered User
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    "WOW" that's an astute observation as I have already looked at the split wood block and have a hand clamp I tried and yes the proximity of the spring barrels makes clamping on the bottom prohibitive. As previously stated the movement is a Seth Thomas.

    Good Eye!
     
  17. wow

    wow Registered User
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    Guess I didn't read well. Missed the Seth Thomas info. Makes sense now.
     
  18. Ralph

    Ralph Registered User
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    #18 Ralph, Jan 31, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2017
    My understanding of a roulant is an uncompleted movement. A movement as supplied to a final finisher. The movement earlier in manufacture is called a blanc, sans springs, barrels, escapement... and I think there is a stage where it is called blanc-roulant.

    Here is an example of a blanc.

    attachment.jpg attachment.jpg attachment.jpg


    The roulant is a near finished movement. Note the arbors are not cut down, a suspension is not determined yet, it has a mill finish, no hammer, ... one of these is a French ships bell.

    attachment.jpg attachment.jpg attachment.jpg attachment.jpg attachment.jpg

    Ralph
     

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  19. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    Thanks Doug. When I have time, I'll go back and correct the post.
     
  20. hemioutlaw

    hemioutlaw Registered User
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    Thanks "Ralph",
    Dare I speak for anybody else while we are living under the repressive constraints of PC but I imagine most understand the difference between Round, Square, Rectangular etc. and depending on country of origin just the spelling is different but I personally and I'm sure many other's do get caught up in semantic's and like to use the correct terminology and I appreciate you offering further dissemination of the word "Roulant".

    I'm getting close to fabricating a run in stand for this movement and curious if you would add an image of the fixturing you use for these type of movements.

    Thanks
     
  21. Ralph

    Ralph Registered User
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    Hemioutlaw, actually non of what I posted applies to your movement. Yours is just an American movement with round plates.

    In the French system, roulant, which I believe translates to rolling, not round, implies a certain point in the manufacture of the movement. It is shortened from blanc-roulant. In an earlier stage of manufacture, the movement it is called blanc, plates with pillars and sometimes barrels/arbors.

    Not trying to belabor it, but felt I had to try to clarify what I posted.

    Ralph
     
  22. emhitch

    emhitch Registered User
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    I prefer the Parker test stand: attachment.jpg as it can hold many different types of movements without damaging the plates in any way like these clamping systems tend to do (these can leave small depressions in the plate where the rounded end of the rod clamps the plate): attachment.jpg However, the Parker test stand is comparatively expensive ($275 USD) and much more so than some of the other options out there.
     

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  23. James Foster

    James Foster Registered User
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    #23 James Foster, Feb 1, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2017

    I have had good luck with a Gene's movement stand from Merritts. I have incorporated it in my test stand system and it works very well and is versatile.

    As far as movement assembly I use PVC couplings and have found a roll of toilet paper very useful especially when there are extensions of arbors or posts which will push into the roll without damaging the protrusions or marring the plates like stand posts style might.
    attachment.jpg
    The stand that comes from Merritts limits the movement it will work with to ones who's pendulum will not hit the table top and this is relative to the length of the dowels. The horizontal slots are designed to hold feet typically found on American movements by using #10-24 x 11/2" machine screws with wing nuts. With some steel strap or misc brackets and a round file to create a profile to fit around the posts separating the plates it can accommodate round French movements.

    I mounted the stand to a shelf board that fits in the extruded aluminum shelf bracket, cutting out for a pendulum removing the inherent limitation of the original stand. The original stand would work well just as it comes for the drop of your movement. Of course you can make your own version but this one is very well made and a bargain if you value your time.

    IMG_0902.jpg
     
  24. hemioutlaw

    hemioutlaw Registered User
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    Thank you"emhitch",
    That's exactly what I was envisioning, now were cooking.
     
  25. RJSoftware

    RJSoftware Registered User

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    Sometimes I just spread the jaws of a bench vice and set the movement on top of the two edges. I can set it so the pendulum hangs down free from interference. It's not real safe as it's easy to knock over by accident but I am careful. Just good enough to see if the trains are working and/or stopping. Only I go in my shop so I can leave it all day for days to test it that way.

    RJ
     
  26. Dick C

    Dick C Registered User

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    #26 Dick C, Feb 2, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2017
    An antique solution:
     

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  27. AJSBSA

    AJSBSA Registered User

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    This works well for French movements

    attachment.jpg

    And it does all the other styles as well

    attachment.jpg attachment.jpg
     

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    BLKBEARD likes this.
  28. BLKBEARD

    BLKBEARD Registered User
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    Who makes your Gimballed clock stand:???: Looks pretty nice. Thanks for sharing
     
  29. AJSBSA

    AJSBSA Registered User

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    The adjustable base is available quite cheaply from Proxxon the clamp and rods I made to a design from Steve G Conover but I think I saw some ready made on Ebay, the stand works very well I have been using it for about two years so it has been tested on hundreds of clock movements it is so useful I made two more.

    attachment.jpg attachment.jpg attachment.jpg
     

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  30. hemioutlaw

    hemioutlaw Registered User
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    Thank you "ajsbsa",
    Your psychic abilities are quite impressive as you answered my question about the clamping mechanism just as I was about to submit my query for more detail.

    Awesome job!
     

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