Rookie requesting guidance

[hi-winder]

I have spent the last few weeks reading and watching videos with the short term goal of being able to clean and oil (basic service) pocket watches. Eventually I would like to do some advanced repairs but understand that takes time, practice, and more tools. I just about have all the tools needed for basic service and have a couple of practice movements. Tonight I decided I was ready for my first disassembly. I'm proud to say nothing was damaged and as far as I know, no parts were lost. I took pictures along the way and laid all the parts out on a sheet of paper with notes. Once my cleaning solution and oils show up I'll be ready for the first attempt at assembly.

The first project movement is an Elgin 12s Gr 303 Mod 3. The balance would rotate for a few seconds and the second hand moved. It was definitely dirty upon takedown.
1) Is it a safe assumption all the parts are there?

It has a decent dial but I will need hands.
2) From all I read it appears any Elgin 12s hands are appropriate?

It did not come with a winding arbor and crown. I understand I could use a bench winding tool but I don't have one yet and I would like to make this completely functional when completed. The winding arbor is my biggest stumbling block right now. When I looked at Pocket watch database It says the Elgin part number for the stem is 1774. It also shows a total of 50 different grades using the same stem. I assume this makes it a very common part but after some time searching I can't find one under that number. It's clear I am lacking some knowledge in this area. I'm not concerned about originality only function.

3) Am I correct assuming winding arbor and winding stem are the same part just different terminology?
4) What terminology or type of number should I be looking for?

I understand many stems are long to allow for fitting to specific cases. I also believe crowns are kind of universal assuming you have the correct thread pitch. I have not looked into crown part numbers yet. If there is an easy way to clarify them I would appreciate it.

Thank you for any assistance.

 

[Rick Hufnagel]

Hello and good day!

1) sounds like its complete enough from your description.

2) for the most part, yes. If you find a set of hands labeled for a 12s Elgin they should fit. As with any hands, sometimes they may need to be fit to the watch. This may require reaming or tightening the holes to fit. I've never really had an issue with 12s Elgin hands though. They usually go right on.

3) there is no winding arbor specifically for this movement. These are negative set and the stem and crown are built into the cases. When you go to buy a 12 sized American case, make sure the crown and stem are installed.

Have fun with your project!

 

[hi-winder]

Thanks,

I think I get it. I found this info in another thread after searching Google for negative stem set.


"""""""Positive Setting - this is found on most Swiss watches and wristwatches. The winding stem (with crown) is attached to the movement, being held in place by a detent and screw. The stem engages the internal setting parts through the detent and clicks in/out with a push/pull to move the internal parts from winding to setting position. The "click" is caused by parts under the dial. The stem must be removed before taking the movement in or out of the case.

Negative Setting - the stem and crown are part of the case, and the sleeve (threaded into the case pendant) is required to hold the stem as it "clicks" up or down to setting or winding position. These parts are never removed from the case except when they are broken or need adjustment. The winding/setting parts are in the movement. As noted before, the default position of the parts internal to the movement are the setting position. When the movement is in the case the stem is in the pushed-in position to wind the watch and held in this position by the spring leaves of the sleeve. Pulling the stem to its out position allows the internal setting parts to resume the default position. To remove this type of movement the stem only need be pulled out to the setting position.

For your negative setting movement you will need a stem and sleeve of the correct proportions to properly engage the movement in the two positions. The proper depth of engagement can be adjusted to some extent by screwing the sleeve in or out. """""""""""""""""

 

[musicguy]

Hi hi-winder and welcome to the NAWCC Forum.

I have moved your question to our
Watch repair section.


Rob

 

[hi-winder]

Chapter 2.................Some success today!!!!!!!!!!!Finally received enough of my ordered tools and supplies to clean and begin assembly. I used L & R in a jar in ultrasonic followed by rinse in 99 IPA. Inspected under microscope and did some pegging, not much was required because I pegged before the wash. So far no parts have flown anywhere (that I know of). I did not wash the balance assembly or pallet fork so they were next to clean. I did the fast dip in IPA for the fork then blew it off to dry followed by Rodico under the scope. Now for some microscope work on the two capped balance jewels. First problem, reassembled one of the the bearing jewels backwards. Realized it after assembling the second and seeing the cap jewel sticking out too far. Got both assembled and oiled properly along with attaching the hair spring pie piece, ready to try the balance for function.

The first flying micro screw incident. Before starting disassembly I made a cardboard wall to surround my matt. I'm good with tweezers but assume something will take flight sooner or later. While screwing in a cap jewel the first first screw disappeared. After several minutes of looking and scanning the floor with a magnet I decided I would have to live without it. After all this is a cheap practice movement. I only hoped it would still function for a while if I am able to complete assembly. As I went back to assembling the balance the other screw dislodged from the main case.

It would spin but not like it should. I was careful to not destroy the balance staff by forcing anything. After a few tries decided the balance was a likely candidate so I took it out and leaned again while inspecting under the microscope. If I saw an end that appeared to possibly be broken I would search for it's proper length so I could measure. It looked fine. Did I bend the hair spring or some other rookie mistake?? Well, I noticed the pie piece(sorry don't know all the part names yet) was not flush with the back side. I decided it was worth loosening and trying to insert further. It did, ready for a retest.

IT"S ALIVE ! It spins like a champ. All this took only 3 hours (insert laugh track here). Unfortunately I can't complete assembly because I don't have all my lubricants yet. I'm very pleased to be able to get this far on my first try.

 

[Chris Radek]

That sounds like a big accomplishment!

The pie piece is called the hairspring stud. Various makes/models have various styles of stud; Elgins are all the pie shape and it's a good design. Often you need to adjust the height of a hairspring stud to provide the required clearances above and below the hairspring. Sometimes the right setting is flush with the top of the balance cock, sometimes it's meant to be pushed in all the way, sometimes you have to wing it.

This can be tricky. As large as these movements are, the clearances in height are often quite small, especially on full plate models. If the hairspring is distorted so it's out of flat, it can be impossible to find the needed clearances.

If you're losing screws, be sure your tweezers are dressed properly, especially if they are cheap or worn. If the tweezers are ok, you just need practice: get a cheap lot of random watch screws on ebay, dump them out on your bench, and then pick them up one at a time and put them in neat rows all standing up on their heads. With practice you will get the dexterity and you will even be able to pick up a screw and rotate the tweezers around in your fingers without dropping it. If you have trouble regulating the pressure needed, maybe your tweezers are too stiff. I like to use a good 3C model, lately I use a titanium Dumont. Brass/bronze is good too but they wear fast and require more maintenance.

A few hours practicing will save you many hours of frustrating floor searches. But still, if you can, prepare your floor: don't have carpet, and seal up any cracks. Even if you do this for decades, you will still drop things (but you'll quickly learn not to squeeze too hard and shoot them into another universe.)

 

[hi-winder]

I was not aware that the stud can need adjustment. I guess it means this was a fortunate accident that I was able to figure it out.
Thanks for the explanation. It appears I need to research this a bit more to acquire some basic understanding.

Good advice on tweezer practice. My incident occurred with a screw driver. I can see practice being essential to improve those skills. I would die if I put a big scratch on a decorative surface of a clean high end movement. I have the Bergeon screwdriver set plus the three or four in between sizes not in the set. All the more reason to practice on cheapies. Luckily I have good tweezer skills after a few years as an hobby gemologist. Once sending a ruby flying across a store I soon bought my own gem tweezers and never did that again. I have brand new Dumont numbers 2 and 5.

I always look for humor in life. I was chuckling at myself while on the floor looking for a screw no bigger than a spec of dirt. Probably won't be the last time. I also find it funny that Mobeius lubricants have a shelf life of 2 years but the reason nearly everyone uses them is they appear to be superior and last a long time. Has anyone ever thrown out their oil/grease on day 731? Part of what make this funny is some of them cost roughly $60,000 per gallon when purchased in 2 ml bottles. If I can't win Mega Ball maybe I'll discover I'm the heir to the Moebius fortune.

 

[MrRoundel]

You're not the only one who has pinged a screw away with your 3-iron. Did you yell "Four!" as it left earth's surface? ;-)

Kidding aside, I will tell you that I live in fear of pitching one off with my screwdriver. When I pull back from the work and observe the angle of my screwdriver, I usually see that I am not at 90 degrees to the work. Things seem to distort a bit under 4x magnification, and my instincts for being square just aren't that keen. It's also that you have to put enough downward pressure to start the screw. So once you get at what you feel is a 90 degree approach, and have the right sized screwdriver, you have to go for it. Once it bites, give it as much of turn as you can before re-setting the screwdriver to finish the job. It can be nerve-wracking, but it works for me.

A third hand would come in handy as well. Maybe future watchmakers will gain this in evolution? Good luck with your projects.

 

[gmorse]

Hi MrR,

When starting a screw, I always gently turn it backwards until the thread drops into the hole slightly and it's upright, then I turn it forwards. This helps prevent cross-threading and also steadies the screw. Another help is to hold the screwdriver just above the chamfered part with tweezers, which helps keep it in the slot and again, tends to keep the screw upright.

Regards,

Graham

 

[hi-winder]

I will check my position to see how close to vertical I am.

An issue I discovered on the main plate is one of the brass bearings has a slight oval shape. I assume there is a way to repair this but I have not come across this in any video. I do not yet have a lathe or staking set.

 

[hi-winder]

SUCCESS !!!!!!!! Finally received Molycote DX and was able to assemble my first movement. After a few months of video and forum stories of woe I somewhat expected I had lost a part, would break something, or would not be able to figure out some functional problem. It took about two hours to lube and complete. Winding the mainspring by hand was not as bad as anticipated. The biggest obstacle was figuring out how to wind it(pendant set/wind ) without a 12s case. Finally found a pair of cheap tweezers I had worked well enough. It has been running for 14 hours so far. When my Timegraher arrives I'll adjust.

Lessons learned.......>Should have taken a few more pics during disassembly. >Need to organize my work area better. >I'm pretty good with tweezers but need practice with screwdrivers.

 

[James Wrobel]

For winding on the bench: I suggest you look through your screwdrivers and pick one that fits diagonally in the stem slot.

I have saved some old stems and crowns to do bench winding, but I don't have a 16s, so I use one of my screwdrivers for that.

Good work, by the way.

jjw

 

[hi-winder]

Watch number 2 didn't go so well. Elgin Gr 6 Mod 4. Trying to get all the pivots lined up under one plate was a challenge. The problem came when I realized the impulse jewel mount was lose on the balance. Keep in mind I don't have a staking set yet but it's high on my list. after a few attempts at pressing in on I decided to try tweezers (cheap Ones) and tapping with a jewelers hammer off on the side. The good news is it worked, unfortunately the jewel went up like a lob wedge shot. I didn't hit it the darn thing didn't like the impact. The best learned lessons are the ones you look at and realize without being told it wasn't a good idea.
Now I am among the many looking for a parts movement or hoping for a miracle donation. I'm fairly confident it would run save for that.

After a few days to regroup I started number 3 Hampden 16 s Grade Champion H Mod 3. All looks good after cleaning. Mainspring was broken. I have spent time reading about mainsprings the past few months knowing this would be a common replacement part. I feel I have good measurements, I use calipers for my job. My measurements
2.6 mm .2 mm 21 3/8" 517 mm Length could be off a few mm. barrel ID 16mm 3.2 mm
I "think" the Hampden part number is 3696 but I've seen 2 different dimensions for this same part number. close but not exactly my measurements. SO..................I am assuming I have to settle for a close fit? I found a few different possibilities. One is
2.7 mm .19 mm 21" another 2.7 mm .21 mm 21 1/2" I ordered the weaker .19.

I'm going to find out in a week or so but would like some guidance in this area. My guess is assuming the top of the barrel will go on without binding the spring it will work.