Roller remover question.

Discussion in 'Watch Repair' started by MrRoundel, Mar 24, 2016.

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  1. MrRoundel

    MrRoundel Registered User
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    Greetings. I need to remove the safety roller, and perhaps the entire roller, on one of those extra-thin Illinois 12s movements. It needs a roller jewel and the safety roller crescent is spun about 20 degrees from the jewel location. I have tried using a lathe collet to turn the safety roller, but get no movement on it. Therefore it appears as if the roller will have to come off, taking the safety-roller with it.

    Someone's previous repair attempt on the roller jewel left a large amount of shellac underneath the balance arm, between it and the roller. I have soaked this off with denatured alcohol. The excess was probably there because there is so little space between the two in order to get the right amount of shellac in place. I'm thinking the only way to do it right, is to remove the roller table. So, in your experience, what roller-remover has the thinnest jaws to reach between small roller-table/balance-arm clearances? My duplex style's jaws don't quite make it. Many thanks.
     
  2. MrRoundel

    MrRoundel Registered User
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    OK, how about this: Anybody have any ideas/techniques for adjusting that safety-roller? I've tried repeatedly grabbing it with a lathe collet-holder, yet to no avail. If I can rotate that safety roller, I may be able to replace the roller jewel with very carefully aimed application of shellac.

    I guess I can see why there's a parts movement for sale right now that is missing the balance. These things are a bear due to the clearance issues. Thanks.
     
  3. 4thdimension

    4thdimension Registered User

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    If I am understanding correctly I think you should remove both roller tables and reset them over. Trying to turn the little table could lead to trouble. Both tables can be removed at the same time but it is a good idea to stick them together with a bit of rodico first because that small table tends to wander off. -Cort
     
  4. Paul_S

    Paul_S Registered User
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    Have you considered some of the roller remover stumps in a staking set? You might be able to remove only the safety roller that way.

    Also, I'm not sure, but isn't the roller table in a 12s thin Illinois riveted to the balance?
     
  5. MrRoundel

    MrRoundel Registered User
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    #5 MrRoundel, Mar 24, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2016
    Thanks, Cort. I can see where that safety roller can sprout wings on springs. Good call.

    And, Paul_S., that is an interesting possibility. I don't see anything that would indicate that this is the case. Any obvious things to differentiate such a setup from conventional? The balance hub is very shallow, hence the problem fitting removers. The roller-table looks conventional, but with round hole, rather than "D" shaped. The roller-table is definitely two-piece. Does this tell you anything? I don't have a parts book for Illinois specifically. All I can find is that the staff may be a #47612. That was in Swartchild's catalog. There's also a not of it having a "combination roller" (CR in catalog.) Does that mean it's supposed to be a one-piece? Or? Thanks.
     
  6. Smudgy

    Smudgy Registered User

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    I think the extra-thin balance is riveted with the staff being a friction fit. It is probably why the parts movement is missing the balance. The safety roller would be separate, even with the roller table and hub being one piece riveted to balance. There were three different staffs used in the extra-thin, so it is possible that it is a normal set-up, but if you are having trouble removing the table I would assume it is the friction staff style. You should be able to tell with magnification, but it doesn't have the usual markings that other watches use (blued hub, notched staff). If nothing else try putting it in the staking set and give the staff a tap or two, that will give you a definite idea of which set-up it is.
     
  7. MrRoundel

    MrRoundel Registered User
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    Thanks, Smudgy. I looked at with an 18x loupe, but am still uncertain. There are lathe scars from someone trying to turn off a rivet, that may or may not have been there. While I don't see a definite rivet, maybe it's been turned off? Or maybe the other hack turned off part of the actual roller-table rivet?

    If I was to try to get movement out of the staff via tapping, which way to I tap? It seems it would be with the balance in running orientation, i.e. "down tap". If the roller-table is part of the rivet assembly, and I do tap it downwardly, this would take the safety roller with it, correct? That way, providing I keep the pivots intact, I would be a able to tap the staff/safety-roller in as a unit, making sure the crescent is in the proper location. So at this point, which way would you tap the balance?

    I can't get my camera to focus at the angle I need to see where the parts converge. I'll attach a couple of photos to see if they tell you, Smudgy, or anyone else anything. Thanks again.
     

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  8. MrRoundel

    MrRoundel Registered User
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    Another picture, perhaps at a better angle. Lack of focus may render it just as useless though. I also found a post that confirms the part number, 47612 (3.30mm L. Mine measures 3.20mm. I guess I'd better double-check the length in the movement.), as being for the thin model. With one being for sale on that auction site, I looked at the picture, and it has the very shallow hub that it looks like mine has.



    https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?16601-Illinois-Size-12-Grade-406-Balance-staff-id-req-d
     

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  9. Skutt50

    Skutt50 Registered User

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    In your last picture I think it is clear that it is a "standard" riveted balance staff. The wheel is mounted from the top in picture two in your earlier post.

    The rivet can be quite small and hard to see. If still riveted and you push the staff out you may bend the sprockets of the wheel resulting in a twisted wheel.

    Have you tried using a roller removal tool type Bergeon 2810?
     
  10. karlmansson

    karlmansson Registered User

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    For small watches the sqeeze lever type roller is recommended by some. If it works on small watches, might work on small clearances as well.
     
  11. MrRoundel

    MrRoundel Registered User
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    Thanks, gents. I had thought about that type, but don't have one. I'll see if I can pick one up to give it a try. At least there's little chance of damaging the pivot with the squeeze type. I may try to adjust that safety-roller again using my lathe, with one collet holding the safety-roller, and the other on the hairspring shoulder, then twisting. That roller does seem to have a death-grip on the staff. It would be nice to salvage the staff. if possible. Thanks again, all. Cheers.
     
  12. Smudgy

    Smudgy Registered User

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    I have one of these around here and will check it tomorrow.
     
  13. Skutt50

    Skutt50 Registered User

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    I use it on most watches with rivited balance wheel, even 18, 19 lignes!
    It may be a bit difficult to fit. One have to open the gap, but once in place, more than 9 out of 10 snapps loose very nicely!
     
  14. MrRoundel

    MrRoundel Registered User
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    Sounds like I might be wise to use Cort's suggestion about the rodico "consolidator", to keep that safety-roller in sight. Especially if it's more of a "snapp-tingg" sound. :cyclops: Cheers.
     
  15. Skutt50

    Skutt50 Registered User

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    Or just cover it with your hand. That is what I do and I have not lost one yet! By the way, not all fly off. Some just come loose!
     
  16. Smudgy

    Smudgy Registered User

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    Sorry I didn't get to this yesterday. The Extra-Thin I have has a friction staff that is most easily removed by driving down from the hairspring side. A rex type roller remover works well, placing the clamp on the bottom of the roller table (taking care not to damage the roller). The hub is riveted to the balance and as one piece includes a short gap between the balance arms and roller table, the roller table, and a short pipe that provides the gape for the safety roller. The safety roller comes off with the staff, but I didn't check if it is one piece with the staff or a separate part friction fit to the staff. The staff looks like a pallet arbor, especially if the safety roller is a separate part. If you need more information let me know.
     
  17. Ticktinker

    Ticktinker Registered User

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    I have removed some hairsprings and some rollers with 2 wrist watch spring bar tools as pry tools.
    This is done inside a giant freezer bag... I do it through a pair of holes for the tools. my stake anvil or my stake set up fits inside the bag, etc...
    There are two size ends on the tools and the large ends on mine are filed in the flat to reduce the thickness.
    If your roller is riveted, bless you and hope you find a better way.
    I have seen gobs of shellac in a Hamilton set up and I am suspicious that was done to help hold the whole balance assembly together.
     
  18. MrRoundel

    MrRoundel Registered User
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    Thanks, Smudgy. If it is indeed a friction staff, I was picturing something like a pallet-arbor shaped part. It just doesn't seem like this is what it has though. I am able to get a small bite in the gap between the roller-table and balance arm with the smaller side of my duplex-remover. Giving the staff some pretty smart taps from the hairspring side get's me no movement with the staff. While I don't see a rivet in evidence, It's not acting like a friction staff. I realize that it has to be one or the other.

    The safety roller has to be a separate piece due to the fact that the crescent is facing 45 degrees from the roller jewel. (I know, I first said 20 degrees in an earlier post. That was wrong.)

    I set the project down for a few days, but will get back to it over the next couple. Oh, and I may wait until I contact a friend who has a nice microscope that I might be able to take a gander through to see what can be seen. He's also quite knowledgeable about these watches. I'll report back whenever I figure it out. Thanks again.
     
  19. MrRoundel

    MrRoundel Registered User
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    So, to anyone who is working on one of these 1st model Extra-thin Illinois balances, either to replace the roller jewel or the staff, the staff comes knocks out very easily. Remove the hairspring. Support the balance using the smallest hole on your staking table that allows the lower staff, where it looks like polished safety roller without the cutout, to pass through while resting the roller table/hub (riveted on, incorporated into balance) on the staking table. Drive staff from the top. It drops right out.

    Once I saw what the staff looked like in an Illinois materials catalog, it was easy to see. It is a very unique staff. Swigart also shows this staff, a #1763, only used in 1st model XT 12s movements. I did have the Swigart catalog in my possession, but did not reference it. Live and learn. Cheers.
     
  20. MrRoundel

    MrRoundel Registered User
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    After speaking with Jerry, I realized that the reason the staff came out as easily as it did is because I could support the roller-table without fear of breaking the roller jewel, as it was missing. I'm thinking that the only way to remove the staff on a balance with intact roller is to remove the roller jewel first. Once an then support under the roller-table as one taps out the staff.

    BTW, you may identify the staff as having the part number of 47611. That is one number that was used by Illinois and Swigart. See image to get idea of the unusual design. The safety roller is part of the staff. The roller-table is basically part of the balance wheel. I doubt it's removable from the balance without total destruction of the hub and balance. Cheers.

    IllStaff2.jpg
     
  21. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
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    I wish I had thought of this earlier. Here are two stumps that allow removal of this staff without damaging the roller jewel. The key was understanding this oddball balance staff.
    stumps.jpg XT_removal.jpg
     
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  22. MrRoundel

    MrRoundel Registered User
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    Thanks, Jerry. Believe it or not, I tried the stump I have that "resembles" yours. It did not support enough of the balance arm/roller table. Image below. Interesting that your stump there has a steeper angle than mine does. IIRC, you have the Bulova or Boley style staking set that has the swing arm? Whatever it is, the stump with my set doesn't offer such solid support. I take it you purposely staggered the support by having one side of the stump under the arm and one under the roller-table?

    And I don't have that other interesting tool that you show that accommodates the roller jewel into a slot. That too is probably specific to the swing-arm type staking tool, as is almost certainly has a different spread between the holes.

    So far I'm liking the special tool in your image on the left for best support. Yesterday I tried using the technique I used when finish-tapping a staff from a "G" size early Howard (In another thread titled "Tool improvisation", IIRC. Hollow stump with short version of K&D staff remover.), but I was having to tap a bit harder than I'd like. I did use a hollow stump with a larger hole to accommodate the roller-table though. It held pretty well, but I'm being extra careful not to destroy this balance. Thanks again. Cheers.

    IMG_1768.JPG
     

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