Robert Roskell Numbers File.

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by Allan C. Purcell, Oct 5, 2017.

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  1. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    #1 Allan C. Purcell, Oct 5, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2017
    Robert Roskell Numbers File.

    I think I am slowly getting the hang of this new board, I could even get to like in a few years time. Though this new thread is about the Roskell File, I do have a question, has anyone done any research on John Cragg and or
    John Cragg Smith-are they one and the same person? The photograph below is engraved-John Cragg-Smith Bunhill Row London No.4212.
    Regards,

    Allan.

    277497-6c8ec7987ee468447741efa2ca291d90.jpg

    s-l1600000.jpg
     
  2. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    R. ROSKELL Numbers..pdf
    I now hope I have got this right and you can now look at the new and updated Roskell numbers list.

    Regards,

    Allan.
     

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  3. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    #3 Allan C. Purcell, Oct 30, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2017

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  4. John Matthews

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  5. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Thanks John- It is on my note book with others-I usually wait for about five or six new numbers before I put on a new file. I just wish we could get rid of the old ones.

    Thanks,

    Allan.
     
  6. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    Do you have a number in Bunhill Row? I used to live there in the seventies. Heavily bombed in WWII but there are still original bits left.
     
  7. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Hi Nick- Sorry no address number on that Cragg watch- I was wondering if John Cragg Smith was the son of John Cragg. I managed to find that thread from 2015
    on John Cragg, Do you think the watch was made before or after 1856??

    Best,

    Allan.
     
  8. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    After reading the John Cragg thread- I tried the "London Post Office Trade Directory for 1852 (Small edition) page 180
    John Cragg 8, Northampton Square.. The numbers on his watches around this period are high 5 digits. Anyone have information
    about his early production. 3 and 4 digit watches. This firm was around for quite some time, there must be more information somewhere.
    I have a full copy of the 1808 edition, he is not in there.
    Regards,

    Allan.
     
  9. Lychnobius

    Lychnobius Registered User

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    I think I have got a Cragg Smith movement somewhere, but I cannot remember the details. I shall have to fish for it.

    Oliver Mundy.
     
  10. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    #10 Allan C. Purcell, Nov 5, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2017
    The latest update.Two for the price of one.
    Regards,

    Allan.
     

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  11. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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  12. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    If it were in the Encyclopedia instead of the forums, you could view any of the past versions at will, but would only see the current version by default.

    It is a feature of the facility that we have not used much. However, it there were an article in the IMAGE area with the name Roskell Numbers it would behave as you want going forward.

    Since someone might stumble across one of you older posts on the topic, the current methods needs to old files to be there to avoid broken links. A moderator might be able to edit all the previous posts and make it a bit more sensible.

    One of the reasons for creating the Story areas was to manage this difficulty. With that facility the base article can be accurate and up to date with all the discussion visible and all the previous versions retrievable by viewers if they feel the need to see them. The author would just update their basic story as the discussion proceeded.
     
  13. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Hi Tom-thank you for the above information. I had a look at the encyclopedia. I had problems with it. They look like advertisements, and some wont open. So I got out of there quick before I did some damage.

    Regards,

    Allan.
     
  14. Allan C. Purcell

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  15. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    One of the great features of the Encyclopedia is that you cannot damage it any more than you can damage Wikipedia. Even if you edited an article and deleted it all, it would just be a minutes work to put it back by restoring the previous edition.
     
  16. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Allan, please see PM from Ray?
     
  17. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    If as been brought to my attention that most of the description of Robert Roskell´s Double Roller Lever escapement pocket watch, and its photographs
    have been lost. It cannot be seen or read in "Early English Table Rollers" So I thought the best way was to re-install it on this thread. Since those photographs
    were on display, I mentioned I had asked some people to have a look at them, one was David Penney, who agreed the watch was made c1820 in fact he had no argument
    with it. The BM in London are looking at it too, though the present head of the horological department has left and a lot of his work as been tansfered to those who will take his place,
    so it could take a while. I will now .put in some of the original documents, and maybe some of you who have not seen it can discuss it.
    Robert Roskell 28015.pdf
    Double roller Lever escapement.pdf

    Regards,

    Allan.
     

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  18. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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  19. Allan C. Purcell

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    #19 Allan C. Purcell, Jan 10, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018

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  20. Travler1

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    Hi Allan ....yours seems an endless task !

    Roskell marine 2 day 358/38648 Bonham sale
    Roskell Marine 1 day 216/33501 Royal Museum Greenwich 1825
    Roskell Pocket 323/38021 R.O. Schmitt sale 2017
    Roskell Poxket. 396/39488 NAWCC 2017 Chronometers

    I own the last Roskell listed and enquirered about the prefix numbering ? I have read a little more
     
  21. Travler1

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    Sorry for inturupted post ....I had a keyboard freeze for finishing and posted rather than booting everything already posted. Following is what I intended ......

    ..........I have read a little more and wish to ask about the prefix numbers in Roskell's movements. My understanding to date, is that Earnshaw did not have the fundage to apply for the patent of his detent..... and so he enlisted Thomas Wright to apply and pay the 100 guines's required for the patent application ...with the understanding that Earnshaw would pay Wright 1 guinea for each detent that Earnshaw produced ....the separate prefix serial numbers which seem to be on only the Roskell detent movements were In place for the above accounting of monies due:???: ....can u or possibly Grahm speak to this thought as Grahm explained to me that Ernshaw was most probabally the detent creator on my watch, when I previously posted on the chronometer board ...Thank u Allan & Grahm
     
  22. gmorse

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    Hi John,

    I think Allan is better placed to comment on the vagaries of Roskell's numbering schemes, but it's true that Thomas Wright did subsidise Earnshaw's patent to the tune of 100 guineas, (a substantial sum at the time). Thomas Earnshaw, as one of the leading chronometer finishers of the time, did do work for Robert Roskell, and probably supplied movements to him before Roskell set up his own chronometer production.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  23. Allan C. Purcell

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    Hi Travier1-Thank you for the numbers, though you may have noticed I do not give to much time with the watches after Robert senior died. They are of course
    interesting, and those who come later can fill in the gaps if they want to. The numbers you ask about are for example 396/39488 the first three are the chronometer number, the last five digits
    are the number of items sold at that time the chronometer was sold.( I will though add your numbers to the file and thank you again).Regards, Allan.
     
  24. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    While I wrote the above, my thoughts started to wander to Thomas Earshaw. There is little doubt Wright never treated him Right! Bit it all started with Brockbank.
    When Earnshaw whent to London he was already known to be a first class Mechanic. Brockbank asked Earnshaw to make Detent escapements on the French style
    at a certain price, and Earshaw said thats fine, but after I have made them you could get them copied, at a lower price. Brockbank then said he was right and he would not do that and garenteed
    Earnshaw the price spoken off. Brockback then ask Earnshaw not to tell Mr. Leg about their deal, has Leg would in no time tell the whole of London. To cut the story short Earnshaw after making Brockbank the detents,
    he was on other business by Leg and there on Legs bench were his two Detents.Later in life it was to happen again-only this time it was Brockbank and Arnold. I know who I believe.Allan.
     
  25. Allan C. Purcell

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  26. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    Given the small number of his documented watches, Earnshaw did much more work for others signature than he ever did for his own. I suspect his lament over his lack of respect was more related to his lack of skill in managing a business than others intentionally taking advantage of him.

    Arnold had essentially nothing when he first came to London, but he had charm and he spoke German which got him into the court and a seat at the King's Kitchen Cabinet.

    It is interesting to note that J. R. Arnold signed about 10 times as many timepieces as Earnshaw did and he never complained about his bad treatment by both his father and Dent. He was the one exposed to the brunt of Earnshaw's attacks since his father died in 1799.
     
  27. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    I don´t think that is fair comment Tom. There are always two side to a story. Earnshaw ran a very good business once he had one. His clocks and watches can be found in all the great collections,
    has are those of John Arnold. J.R. Arnold his son of course would take is fathers side, that is quite normal. Though I think we should carry this on in chronometers-what say you?
     
  28. Allan C. Purcell

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  29. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Sorry the above is a typo error. [​IMG]
     

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  30. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    A new update.

    [​IMG]

    Best Allan.
     

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  31. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    A lot of new information on Roskell watches this weekend. So a new file. Tom I tried to put this in the Encyclopedia, but it says the file is to big??



    [​IMG]
     

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  32. Tom McIntyre

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    #32 Tom McIntyre, Feb 27, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2018
    I have been doing a little catch-up on watches I have not documented. This one is a repeater marked Rob't Roskell Liverpool on dial and movement. It is a 1/2 1/4 repeater. I had one about 10 years ago that I sold and really missed. Of course the one I sold was in a gold case with a really nice railroad presentation. This one is a much simpler silver cased example but by a well known maker, Richard James Oliver HM 1879. The serial number is 56081.
    116060FB-026A-4A6D-8D26-15FCDAD257C8.jpeg FE656CDE-8030-48C6-8934-B541F3E90AE8.jpeg 6D247F8B-D3C3-4E21-AFFB-405BE8676EA2.jpeg DDD54F64-C236-4A01-814E-D74E056BA255.jpeg EC88BA28-4A97-47F9-9D87-DD019F32FD89.jpeg
     
  33. John Matthews

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    Tom - nice example - I assume it is the one that Allan had noted from the Skinner's auction and he notes that it has been re-cased.

    Do you have a sharper photograph of the hallmarks? The shape of the top of the lion passant and the leopard's head is not what I would expect for 1879, but I cannot be sure as the photograph is not very sharp.

    John
     
  34. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Hi Tom-I have no record of this watch and am looking at it for the first time. I take it the number is 50081 (On Case too) and the date letter for London b for 1857/58. If you do has John says, and add another photograph of the HM´s that should clear things up.I can then enter it on the file.

    Best Allan.
     
  35. John Matthews

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    Allan the serial number is 56081 - as I said it is in your file as a re-cased repeater, reference Skinner.

    John
     
  36. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Sorry John, my eyes are going. When I get time today I will go through my photo file, though if Skinner says re-case then it could be- I hope they are wrong. The date fits. Allan.
     
  37. Tom McIntyre

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    #37 Tom McIntyre, Feb 28, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2018
    205A9734-0B46-41E4-A606-5694FE583361.jpeg
    My apologies on the date letter. It is a lower case b for 1897. I am attaching a better picture.

    It could be a purpose made case given Oliver and the late date. I try to distinguish between a recase and a case made for the movement. Someone may have fallen on hard times in '97.

    Interesting to imagine that Oliver could have made the case for the watch for significantly less than the value of the gold in the prior case.
     
  38. John Matthews

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    Hi Tom - that's much clearer and now all the marks fit for the case maker Richard James Oliver who have been at 31 Wynyatt Street Clerkenwell by that date. Sadly address is now a block of flats.

    John
     
  39. Allan C. Purcell

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    [​IMG]

    This up-date includes a clock with a Savage two pin escapement page 19. Information would be welcome. Best Allan.
     

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  40. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    [​IMG] Large update, this time.
     

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  41. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Some of the pages got mixed up-sorry now fixed.

    [​IMG]
     

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  42. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Hoooops page 14 twice. Correction above plus some new information. Does anyone know if Robert Roskell had an agent in Rio de Jeneiro. On the Roskell clock it is signed Liverpool & Rio de Jeneiro.



    View PDF 472798[/pdf)
     

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  43. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    New update-16.06.2018 or 6.16.2018.
     

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  44. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    Just re reading this thread about John Cragg and Bunhill row then the Northampton Sq address. I lived in Bunhill Row when I was at college in Northampton Square. (City University, formerly Northampton Poly named after the square)

    The are about 20 mins walk apart. Seems a rich area for watchmakers, I have a watch signed by a guy in a street I used to pass going between the two.
     
  45. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    The Cragg family are another group which is hard to identify, but one thing is sure they made fine pocket watches. Do you want me to dig them out. Though I think I put them on "Earlly English Single table rollers" There is also a John Cragg Smith I dont know where he fits in.
     
  46. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    No, just thinking aloud to myself about the off coincidences in life.
     
  47. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    I think the older we get, the more we look back-not that I would want to go there-I think we measure what we were and what are. Its a mix of fond memories, and the things we would like to forget.

    bunhill-row-london-ec1-london-uk-jgj3k6.jpg Whats Left of Bunhill Row-try to buy one-they were for the poor.

    blakegrave.jpg It appears they are well known for their graveyard, other photographs make it look like a place to eat your sandwiches.
    dT1hSFIw.jpg I used to live here, I was his driver.
    70d5a09ba4db58aee756d3e91f1b8d99.jpg Now here is a place to talk about Robert Roskell, it was there when he was there. Best Allan.
     
  48. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    Bunhill Row is most well known for the Honourable Artillery Company and the cemetery. The building I lived in has been demolished and the brewery down the road where they kept the Lord Mayor's coach and the dray horses that pulled it seems to be flats now.
     
  49. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Find a little corner of London, and you never get past it´s history-Nick. Next time you are up there-take your camera, and tell me more-I come from the back woods of Stoke-on-Trent all we had was the capt. of the Titanic and that fool Robbie Williams.
     
  50. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    02/09/2018. or 09/02/2018
    [​IMG]
     

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