Restoring a Rivett 1R watchmaker's lathe

[part-timer]

I'm creating this thread because I have a Rivett 1R watchmaker's lathe with serial number 195 stamped in the three usual spots - underneath the tailstock casting, between the ways of the lathe bed, and on the headstock itself. I've had the lathe since 2015, and I've done absolutely NOTHING with it. Just a few days ago I finally decided to tear into it, as they say. I'm hoping I can get some of my questions answered here. Most of my questions will be specific to the Rivett 1R watchmaker's lathe, but a few will be fairly generic and straightforward.

I plan to ask just one question at a time.

My first questions will be about the tailstock. I disassembled it yesterday and found the runner has the usual dead center inserted. There is the usual tiny cross-hole through the diameter of the runner where the dead center's back end is. Problem is, I can't seem to get the dead center out of the runner.

Is there a special tool to get the center out of the runner? I tried a small nail (smaller than the hole of course) and ground a bevel in the end to use as a wedge. The dead center didn't budge at all! All I accomplished was create a small indentation in the bevel. Obviously the nail was softer than the dead center.

The only thing I can think of is to set the runner vertically on my bench and place a couple of drops of Kroil or Liquid Wrench around the front end of the dead center and let it sit for a few days. Then hope the oil seeps into the taper. After a couple days, try another tiny wedge in the cross-hole, this time something harder - a piece of drill rod maybe?

Any ideas? Is there a special tool to get those centers out of the runner?

Thanks in advance, and more questions later on once I solve this mystery...
...Doug

 

[Dave T]

Sounds like you're on the right track. Keep it soaked and let it sit for a couple of days.

http://www.rivettlathe.com/

 

[part-timer]

Sounds like you're on the right track. Keep it soaked and let it sit for a couple of days.

http://www.rivettlathe.com/

Thanks for that. I'm guessing that's what it's going to take to get that center to pop out of there!

 

[sharukh]

Put the runner in an ultrasonic for some time if the penetrating oil doesn't work.

Sharukh

 

[Dave T]

Or use a bigger hammer!

 

[part-timer]

Put the runner in an ultrasonic for some time if the penetrating oil doesn't work.

Sharukh

I'll try that if the penetrating oil doesn't work. I have to admit there's a part of me that suspects it won't work, because the dead center seems to be pushed into the runner further than I think it should be, even though I don't know how that could be possible. It's just that on my other lathes, the dead center comes to the middle of the knockout hole in the runner, not almost to the end of it!
But, I set the runner vertically and put two drops of Kroil in the chamfer around the center. Hopefully the Kroil will creep between the runner and the center. I'll give it a 2 or 3 days time to do its magic. In the meantime I'm going to get some 0.072" drill rod from McMaster Carr and make another magic wand to pop it out. We'll see.

One good thing that happened today was I found the other Rivett mounting base for the 1R! The 1R came with the round one when I bought it, but shortly after I managed to find one of the square pedestal-type bases they made. I knew it was somewhere in my shop. It was sitting right on top of one of my parts boxes!

 

[part-timer]

Or use a bigger hammer!

I have one of those! Hope I don't have to use it... I heard Thor wants it back.

 

[dave-b]

For a magic wand, try a piece of biue steel filed or ground at an acute angle on one face, like half a screwdriver.
Dave.

 

[part-timer]

For a magic wand, try a piece of biue steel filed or ground at an acute angle on one face, like half a screwdriver.
Dave.

dave-b, I wonder if pivot wire might do the trick... I was about to order a piece of 0.072" drill rod from McMaster Carr, but now that I think about it, I have a complete assortment of pivot wire right here in my shop!
The tailstock runner has been sitting (vertically, of course) with 2 drops of Kroil since Sunday 9-18-'22. I'm going to find an appropriately-sized piece of pivot wire and make a "center remover" later today. At this point, I'm okay waiting 3 days or more for the Kroil to do its thing, so I'll probably give it another go later this week sometime.

 

[dave-b]

dave-b, I wonder if pivot wire might do the trick... I was about to order a piece of 0.072" drill rod from McMaster Carr, but now that I think about it, I have a complete assortment of pivot wire right here in my shop!
The tailstock runner has been sitting (vertically, of course) with 2 drops of Kroil since Sunday 9-18-'22. I'm going to find an appropriately-sized piece of pivot wire and make a "center remover" later today. At this point, I'm okay waiting 3 days or more for the Kroil to do its thing, so I'll probably give it another go later this week sometime.

Yes - I use blue steel as pivot wire!
dave.

 

[part-timer]

Yes - I use blue steel as pivot wire!
dave.

Ah, okay! Thank you so much!

 

[Peter]

Heating the outside of the spindle evenly may also help. Too hot to touch but not hot enough for your oil to smoke.

 

[part-timer]

Heating the outside of the spindle evenly may also help. Too hot to touch but not hot enough for your oil to smoke.

Peter, that's an excellent idea. Thank you for that.

 

[4thdimension]

I haven’t ever seen a Rivett 1R but somewhere along the way I picked up an ad for one from 1947. Good luck getting the center out!-Cort

 

[part-timer]

I haven’t ever seen a Rivett 1R but somewhere along the way I picked up an ad for one from 1947. Good luck getting the center out!-Cort

View attachment 727496 View attachment 727497 View attachment 727498

Cort, WOW! That's a beautiful ad. I have never run across that ad before. Thanks for sharing.

 

[part-timer]

SUCCESS!
After 3 days of continuously soaking the tapered center in Kroil, I laid the runner on my bench and gave it a light tap with my handmade extraction tool - and... nothing. Another light tap and... nothing.
Then, per my plan, I switched to Peter's idea and gently heated the runner, holding my Bic lighter and waving it gently about 1/2" from the tip of the runner. I did that for maybe 20 seconds and felt how hot the runner was. I gave it maybe another 10 seconds and quickly dropped my lighter and put the extraction tool (that's what I'm calling it now) in the popout hole (that's what one guy on YouTube calls it) and gave it one more light tap and VOILA.... the tapered center dropped to the floor!

I made the extraction tool out of pivot wire this time, instead of a nail. And this time I was more careful to stone the tool's tip to a sharper point, to try to make sure it gets into the hole further than the first time.

Anyway, it worked... thanks Peter, and I'm still wondering how much the Kroil actually did. I strongly suspect it didn't do a dang thing, because knowing Rivett and their obsessive controls over manufacturing anything with their name on it, I'm betting the entire length of the center's tapered section was sealed tighter than a... well, never mind. The heat idea is now permanently ensconced into my bag of tricks!

See for yourself...

 

[wefalck]

Looks, as it had been rusted fast a bit.

For rust removal I use, after degreasing, used tea-leaves - the cheap tannin-rich teas are best, because it's the tannin that acts a a reductant for the iron-oxide and complexant for the resulting divalent iron.

 

[part-timer]

Looks, as it had been rusted fast a bit.

For rust removal I use, after degreasing, used tea-leaves - the cheap tannin-rich teas are best, because it's the tannin that acts a a reductant for the iron-oxide and complexant for the resulting divalent iron.

Thanks for the suggestion re: rust removal. Do you find used tea leaves have a more aesthetically pleasing effect than a commercial product like Evapo-Rust?

 

[wefalck]

I don't know this product, so I cannot comment on the way it works. However, beware of so-called 'rust converters'. They contain phosphoric acid, which will convert the rust into iron(III)-phosphate, which is very hard and voluminous compound. That's ok for car-body repair, but not for parts that have precision-machined surfaces. The same applies for the often recommended Coca-Cola, btw., which also works through the phosphoric acid it contains.

You may have to leave the parts for several days in a sludge of tea-leaves. It will be very messy, as it will be very black (the iron-tannine compounds), which will stain fingers and clothing. So pay attention. Rinse several times in luke-warm water and rub afterwards with some very fine steel-wool.

 

[Dave T]

How rusty was it when you first got it out?

 

[onewatchnut]

Thanks for the suggestion re: rust removal. Do you find used tea leaves have a more aesthetically pleasing effect than a commercial product like Evapo-Rust?

Careful with Evapo-Rust. Do not leave parts in it too long. Long exposure causes carbon migration which turns the surface black. It is the same thing that happens when heating steel to harden it without coating it with borax. Ask me how I know.

 

[part-timer]

How rusty was it when you first got it out?

Dave T, only a little bit. It wasn't bad, really. I was expecting worse, but those tapers are in an oxygen-starved environment owing to its inherent tight fit.
What you see in the picture is after an overnight soaking in Breakfree CLP. I wrapped the tapered center in a single 2" x 2" gun cleaning patch (if you don't know, they're just pieces of fabric cut into 2" x 2" squares), tied it with a bit of brass wire, and applied drops of CLP (Cleaner Lubricant Protectant... it's a firearms product) until I knew the patch was saturated. This morning I unwrapped it, and all I did was to aggressively wipe down the center with a fresh dry patch and what you see is what I got.
EDIT: by the way, the FIRST thing I did this morning was to clean the female taper in the end of the runner. At first a bit of black crud was dissolved by my solvent, and then I kept cleaning until nothing was showing on my cleaning patches. I finished the operation with 3 or 4 clean dry patches. At that point I knew the female taper was pretty clean.

 

[part-timer]

Careful with Evapo-Rust. Do not leave parts in it too long. Long exposure causes carbon migration which turns the surface black. It is the same thing that happens when heating steel to harden it without coating it with borax. Ask me how I know.

Yes! The same has happened to me in the past with Evapo-Rust. I learned my lesson several years ago. But I didn't understand the concept of carbon migration until now! Thank you for that.

 

[part-timer]

I don't know this product, so I cannot comment on the way it works. However, beware of so-called 'rust converters'. They contain phosphoric acid, which will convert the rust into iron(III)-phosphate, which is very hard and voluminous compound. That's ok for car-body repair, but not for parts that have precision-machined surfaces. The same applies for the often recommended Coca-Cola, btw., which also works through the phosphoric acid it contains.

You may have to leave the parts for several days in a sludge of tea-leaves. It will be very messy, as it will be very black (the iron-tannine compounds), which will stain fingers and clothing. So pay attention. Rinse several times in luke-warm water and rub afterwards with some very fine steel-wool.

wefalck, I'm going to have to become a tea drinker!

 

[wefalck]

I am not a metallurgist, but a geochemist and my understanding of decarbonisation of steel is, that the carbon becomes oxidised at high temperatures, i.e. it burns away. I cannot think of a mechanism for 'carbon migration', when using Evapo-Rust:.

I had a quick look at the safety data-sheet for Evapo-Rust (https://www.evapo-rust.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Evapo-Rust-Safety-Data-Sheet-2015.pdf) and its main active ingredient seems to be a chelating agent - so essentially, it does the same thing as the tea, where the tannins are natural complexing or chelating agents. Whatever 'proprietary' chemical compound they have in Evapo-Rust, it almost certain acts also a reducing agent, as the tea, turning the trivalent iron in the rust into divalent iron. Trivalent iron has a very low solubility compared to divalent iron and forming chelates or complexes workd better with the latter. Such compounds are generally black (as opposed to the yellow-reddish colours of trivalent iron compounds), as noted above.

So, I don't think you need to worry about de-carbonising your steel.

These tapers fit very precisely and already minimal amounts of rust will make them stuck fast.

 

[part-timer]

I am not a metallurgist, but a geochemist and my understanding of decarbonisation of steel is, that the carbon becomes oxidised at high temperatures, i.e. it burns away. I cannot think of a mechanism for 'carbon migration', when using Evapo-Rust:.

I had a quick look at the safety data-sheet for Evapo-Rust (https://www.evapo-rust.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Evapo-Rust-Safety-Data-Sheet-2015.pdf) and its main active ingredient seems to be a chelating agent - so essentially, it does the same thing as the tea, where the tannins are natural complexing or chelating agents. Whatever 'proprietary' chemical compound they have in Evapo-Rust, it almost certain acts also a reducing agent, as the tea, turning the trivalent iron in the rust into divalent iron. Trivalent iron has a very low solubility compared to divalent iron and forming chelates or complexes workd better with the latter. Such compounds are generally black (as opposed to the yellow-reddish colours of trivalent iron compounds), as noted above.

So, I don't think you need to worry about de-carbonising your steel.

These tapers fit very precisely and already minimal amounts of rust will make them stuck fast.

That's interesting - regarding the Evapo-Rust product, I've used it several times with excellent results. But in order to retain original physical appearance, the critical element seems to be to not let it sit too long in the Evapo-Rust. 30 minutes soaking time seems to come to mind, but it's been a long time since I've used it so I might be way off.
In any case, I also have another product on hand called Ex-Rust, made by Kano. They're the same people who make Kroil penetrating oil. My impressions were that it's more agressive than Evapo-Rust, meaning that it works much faster.

 

[wefalck]

As I said earlier, when using commercial products, just check that they do not contain phosphoric acid, because then you run into trouble ...

Personally, I just recycle some household waste that is produced every day, at least during the colder times of the year.

 

[part-timer]

As I said earlier, when using commercial products, just check that they do not contain phosphoric acid, because then you run into trouble ...

Personally, I just recycle some household waste that is produced every day, at least during the colder times of the year.

I think I've got it now. As a non-chemist/non-geochemist, the terms just skate somewhere a few centimeters above my head.
But I can see now that avoiding a rust remover containing phosphoric acid might be wise.
Thanks for the advise... I'm glad I've avoided any rust removal tactics until now.

 

[Betzel]

Part-timer, the brochure unit looks nice, but we've not seen yours up close yet. Got pictures? Looks like this model was from the 1950's or early 1960's, but I don't know. Anyone? Also curious if HR distributed or actually made these things. HR made (or resold) some pretty awesome stuff. Does it look like it was oiled up nicely for storage by the last guy, or "ridden hard and put away wet"?

Either way, I think it's good you started this with the tailstock. Not sure what your ambitions are for that, or when you plan to think about it, etc., but the bearing pre-load and free-spindle tolerances inside these first generation ball-bearing designs are not typically easy to work with. Replacing the original bearings often means the original spacer(s) will no longer work, but I also know lubricated "for life" was not intended to take those old bearings this far into the future. Does it spin nicely with no play, or is it rough/bumpy feeling, or dry as a desert feeling?

Leinen made a similar (in principle?) headstock in their WW80 and WW83 models, and I think G. Boley, Marshall and Levin (others?) did too. Someone here (Measuretwice) successfully rebuilt his WW83, but he is a much better (and better equipped) machinist than many of us. If you are thinking of it, may be best to know what may occur and what your capabilities may be --well before loosening any split nuts. For example, I saw a guy on a German tool forum take his WW83 apart, but there were no "after" pictures of it reassembled or rebuilt, so I took it as a lesson. Decided it was enough to see the inside of his and mine felt fine, but did not have sealed bearings. Uses a felt drip of free oil inside. Yours may be rubber-lip sealed?

Not sure I've ever seen pictures of this model disassembled before. Has anyone? Sorry if I'm jumping ahead here...

 

[part-timer]

Part-timer, the brochure unit looks nice, but we've not seen yours up close yet. Got pictures? Looks like this model was from the 1950's or early 1960's, but I don't know. Anyone? Also curious if HR distributed or actually made these things. HR made (or resold) some pretty awesome stuff. Does it look like it was oiled up nicely for storage by the last guy, or "ridden hard and put away wet"?

Either way, I think it's good you started this with the tailstock. Not sure what your ambitions are for that, or when you plan to think about it, etc., but the bearing pre-load and free-spindle tolerances inside these first generation ball-bearing designs are not typically easy to work with. Replacing the original bearings often means the original spacer(s) will no longer work, but I also know lubricated "for life" was not intended to take those old bearings this far into the future. Does it spin nicely with no play, or is it rough/bumpy feeling, or dry as a desert feeling?

Leinen made a similar (in principle?) headstock in their WW80 and WW83 models, and I think G. Boley, Marshall and Levin (others?) did too. Someone here (Measuretwice) successfully rebuilt his WW83, but he is a much better (and better equipped) machinist than many of us. If you are thinking of it, may be best to know what may occur and what your capabilities may be --well before loosening any split nuts. For example, I saw a guy on a German tool forum take his WW83 apart, but there were no "after" pictures of it reassembled or rebuilt, so I took it as a lesson. Decided it was enough to see the inside of his and mine felt fine, but did not have sealed bearings. Uses a felt drip of free oil inside. Yours may be rubber-lip sealed?

Not sure I've ever seen pictures of this model disassembled before. Has anyone? Sorry if I'm jumping ahead here...

Good morning Betzel - you bring up some good points, and a question. Anyway, I'll address your points, and follow with some pictures of my #195.
1. The Rivett Lathe & Grinder Corp. made the 1R watchmakers lathes between 1946 and approx. 1950. They only made somewhere between 500 & 600 of them from what I've been able to find. They didn't sell well, so they were dropped from production.
2. What is HR? I'm unfamiliar with them. Just curious!!
3. The lathe seems to be unoiled, but kept in a dry location, so there's minimal rust on the steel.
4. My immediate plan is to fabricate my own tailstock runner lock because the original is missing. An acquaintance of mine has two 1R's and has kindly provided me with closeup pics and exacting dimensions. The lock is a two-piece mechanism and I'll be using 1144 stressproof steel. I also plan to recreate a clear-red plastic tailstock knob. I have some experience with turning lucite and acrylic, so I'm aware of the need to only use extremely sharp cutters. I don't have access to the red Permaloid that Rivett used, so I'll start with making an acceptable-looking knob. If I ever find a MAC Tools screwdriver with the clear red handles, I'll fabricate a knob out of that and call it "best I can do".
5. The headstock turns, but very bumpy. It's what I'm the most leery of. I have NO experience with ball-bearing lathes. My plan is to open it up and see what I find and NOT proceed until I know what the correct next few steps will be. Who knows - the headstock may be where I reach my limit. One thing that worries me is the fact that a 1R collet will NOT seat all the way into the spindle...there's a "soft stop" about 1/8" away from being fully seated.

Here's a few pictures:

 

[Betzel]

Okay. Wow. Looks nice, and the red knobs are cool, huh? Must be a racing lathe!
Most of us use collector's items every day, often swearing about it, but this one may take the rarity prize

If you look at the brochure, you'll see the outfit that sold them is Hammel, Ridgelander & Co. (HR) They also sold great 3 and 4 jaw chucks for these, most of them from Germany or Switzerland, and a bunch of other cool stuff. Maybe they were a late stage competitor to Marshall and Paulson, etc. in the USA? I think they had other offices in Europe, but do not know. Not to be confused with Hadley-Roma, the watch strap guys.

The tailstock lock will be fun. But, I am sorry to hear about the bumpiness, and hope it is congealed petroleum grease, that can easily dry into a blotchy or blotted out paste like shellac crazing, and if so will hopefully wash out with techniques you already have/know (like warmed jet-A and lots of time, with maybe 2 minutes in the ultrasonic?) so maybe you can keep the originals. If the bearings are rusted, etc. well you know what will need to be done. It seems like you have the right stuff if you decide to do the job, but...

Just in case, I would suggest you look at this thread https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/ww83-bearings-and-clean-up-paint-job.165063/ before you disassemble the headstock. If the bearings are rubber/plastic sealed-lip, it will not be easy to clean them without disassembly, and you may lose the seals doing it, but you will be reassembling original components. If you have to replace them, best to ponder the various scenarios first?

Are you using collets intended for the spindle? They all use a keyway and locatng pin, but the dimensions across stuff varies greatly.

Good luck with it.

 

[part-timer]

Okay. Wow. Looks nice, and the red knobs are cool, huh? Must be a racing lathe!
Most of us use collector's items every day, often swearing about it, but this one may take the rarity prize

If you look at the brochure, you'll see the outfit that sold them is Hammel, Ridgelander & Co. (HR) They also sold great 3 and 4 jaw chucks for these, most of them from Germany or Switzerland, and a bunch of other cool stuff. Maybe they were a late stage competitor to Marshall and Paulson, etc. in the USA? I think they had other offices in Europe, but do not know. Not to be confused with Hadley-Roma, the watch strap guys.

The tailstock lock will be fun. But, I am sorry to hear about the bumpiness, and hope it is congealed petroleum grease, that can easily dry into a blotchy or blotted out paste like shellac crazing, and if so will hopefully wash out with techniques you already have/know (like warmed jet-A and lots of time, with maybe 2 minutes in the ultrasonic?) so maybe you can keep the originals. If the bearings are rusted, etc. well you know what will need to be done. It seems like you have the right stuff if you decide to do the job, but...

Just in case, I would suggest you look at this thread https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/ww83-bearings-and-clean-up-paint-job.165063/ before you disassemble the headstock. If the bearings are rubber/plastic sealed-lip, it will not be easy to clean them without disassembly, and you may lose the seals doing it, but you will be reassembling original components. If you have to replace them, best to ponder the various scenarios first?

Are you using collets intended for the spindle? They all use a keyway and locatng pin, but the dimensions across stuff varies greatly.

Good luck with it.

Yeah! I guess it looks kind of racy - in an odd, bulbous way!
Ah, OK, I see on the brochure what HR is. Thanks for that - I'm assuming Hammel Ridgelander & Co. is no longer in existence? I'll have to look into it - I've never run across that company before.
Another acquaintance tells me that the bumpiness in the headstock rotation is likely due to congealed grease - hopefully that's all it is, and can be cleaned up. We'll see - I'd like to finish up the tailstock before I tackle the headstock issues. Yes, I'm using Rivett collets specifically for the 1R. The 1R collets are marked RIVETT 1R directly on the crown. I have tried locating the spindle's locating pin by slowly rotating the spindle while holding the collet still, but nothing seems to "catch". It's a mystery to me.
Actually, I'm not acquainted with "Jet-A"! Must be a solvent of some kind...

 

[Betzel]

No worries. The slower we go the less regret we might have, but it all takes a little longer. No rush here.

nothing seems to "catch". It's a mystery to me.

Solving mysteries is what we help each other with here. I'd suggest pulling the headstock off the bed to shine a light through the back of the spindle bore with some white paper --like a rifle barrel-- to inspect the indexing pin. Look at it from both sides. Hopefully, you will find it obstructed with patch pieces that some guy thought would help clean the bore (or a nice combination of dust bunnies, particulate matter and congealed oil) that will prevent you from properly seating the collets in the spindle, then tightening them up with the drawbar. This is the best scenario.

You can see there is a keyway cut in the collet, and it fits in the index pin. If it's not contamination, but the pin is mushroom flared from misuse (like, more force than any of us would have used) then the obstruction is from deformation of the pin. Maybe a few strokes from a needle file will reduce the cap at the top such that you can use it again without much more fuss? If it's mangled farther than that, then you have a pin replacement as part of the headstock work, to boot.

I'm not acquainted with "Jet-A"

Heh. Jet-A (highly refined kerosene) is the fuel they put in modern transport planes. I'm joking, but maybe not 100%. Kerosene works better to cut through old congealed oil than most of the other solvents we all have lying around, but it stinks almost as bad as diesel fuel, which has it's de-greasing charms as well. To each his own, if your significant other will tolerate it?

See what the pin looks like in good light and let us know what you see?

 

[part-timer]

No worries. The slower we go the less regret we might have, but it all takes a little longer. No rush here.

Solving mysteries is what we help each other with here. I'd suggest pulling the headstock off the bed to shine a light through the back of the spindle bore with some white paper --like a rifle barrel-- to inspect the indexing pin. Look at it from both sides. Hopefully, you will find it obstructed with patch pieces that some guy thought would help clean the bore (or a nice combination of dust bunnies, particulate matter and congealed oil) that will prevent you from properly seating the collets in the spindle, then tightening them up with the drawbar. This is the best scenario.

You can see there is a keyway cut in the collet, and it fits in the index pin. If it's not contamination, but the pin is mushroom flared from misuse (like, more force than any of us would have used) then the obstruction is from deformation of the pin. Maybe a few strokes from a needle file will reduce the cap at the top such that you can use it again without much more fuss? If it's mangled farther than that, then you have a pin replacement as part of the headstock work, to boot.


Heh. Jet-A (highly refined kerosene) is the fuel they put in modern transport planes. I'm joking, but maybe not 100%. Kerosene works better to cut through old congealed oil than most of the other solvents we all have lying around, but it stinks almost as bad as diesel fuel, which has it's de-greasing charms as well. To each his own, if your significant other will tolerate it?

See what the pin looks like in good light and let us know what you see?

Re: Jet-A... ah, well, I was going to use kerosene to cut any congealed grease or oil, simply because that's what I have on hand. But until I can rig a ventilation system in my downstairs shop, I'll have to do it outside! My wife absolutely hates the odor - while I, on the other hand, merely loathe it. Ha!
Re: I'm not feeling very ambitious today, so I'll probably wait until after church tomorrow to take a peek through the spindle bore. I have to admit, that's a dead simple and obvious first thing to look at! Thank you for the nudge in a good direction!
...Doug

 

[part-timer]

No worries. The slower we go the less regret we might have, but it all takes a little longer. No rush here.

Solving mysteries is what we help each other with here. I'd suggest pulling the headstock off the bed to shine a light through the back of the spindle bore with some white paper --like a rifle barrel-- to inspect the indexing pin. Look at it from both sides. Hopefully, you will find it obstructed with patch pieces that some guy thought would help clean the bore (or a nice combination of dust bunnies, particulate matter and congealed oil) that will prevent you from properly seating the collets in the spindle, then tightening them up with the drawbar. This is the best scenario.

You can see there is a keyway cut in the collet, and it fits in the index pin. If it's not contamination, but the pin is mushroom flared from misuse (like, more force than any of us would have used) then the obstruction is from deformation of the pin. Maybe a few strokes from a needle file will reduce the cap at the top such that you can use it again without much more fuss? If it's mangled farther than that, then you have a pin replacement as part of the headstock work, to boot.


Heh. Jet-A (highly refined kerosene) is the fuel they put in modern transport planes. I'm joking, but maybe not 100%. Kerosene works better to cut through old congealed oil than most of the other solvents we all have lying around, but it stinks almost as bad as diesel fuel, which has it's de-greasing charms as well. To each his own, if your significant other will tolerate it?

See what the pin looks like in good light and let us know what you see?

Good morning, Betzel. Last night, I took a couple of quick photos of the headstock and its spindle bore. The bore's indexing pin seems to be severely mashed flat, from what I can tell. Since I have several other watchmakers lathes (three of them are other Rivett older-style "2b" lathes), I'm very acquainted with what they look like. Here's a picture looking down the spindle bore. You can see something that doesn't look like an indexing pin at the 10 o'clock or 11 o'clock position:

As you can see, it's not looking hopeful. But at some point I'll be trying to get a closer look.
By the way, it looks like a 2-pin spanner is needed to get the pulley off. The holes are 0.097" diameter, spaced exactly 3/4" apart.

 

[onewatchnut]

I am not a metallurgist, but a geochemist and my understanding of decarbonisation of steel is, that the carbon becomes oxidised at high temperatures, i.e. it burns away. I cannot think of a mechanism for 'carbon migration', when using Evapo-Rust:.

When it happened to me, I contacted the support person at Evapo-Rust. He told me it was carbon migration. It can be prevented by prudent timing of material in the solution. If you leave it in the solution long enough to cause the carbon to migrate to the surface, the only way to remove it is by polishing it with your abrasive of choice. It cannot be removed chemically.

It is the same as when you heat steel to harden it without coating it. The carbon will migrate and turn it black. Polishing is the only way I know of to remove the black. It doesn't really matter if it is a tool for your own use, but it really matters when it is part of something others will see.

 

[part-timer]

When it happened to me, I contacted the support person at Evapo-Rust. He told me it was carbon migration. It can be prevented by prudent timing of material in the solution. If you leave it in the solution long enough to cause the carbon to migrate to the surface, the only way to remove it is by polishing it with your abrasive of choice. It cannot be removed chemically.

It is the same as when you heat steel to harden it without coating it. The carbon will migrate and turn it black. Polishing is the only way I know of to remove the black. It doesn't really matter if it is a tool for your own use, but it really matters when it is part of something others will see.

That's interesting. You're to be commended for bothering to contact Evapo-Rust!

 

[Betzel]

Hi, we can't see very well. Hard to advise without seeing, but usually, there are two pin damage scenarios: A shearing, or someone forcing in a collet not intended for the lathe. Either one means you need to make a new pin as part of the repair.

Shearing typically happens when a slipped piece of steel (graver, usually) locks up a chuck at speed and the drawbar is not tight; so it just shaves the pin right off, leaving a stump behind. It's like a lawn mower blade hitting a grounding lead and stopping dead, shearing the flywheel keyway up top. A moron tapping a wrong collet in with a hammer conjures up all kinds of images I won't go into. D'oh!!

It's not an easy camera shot, but if you can hold a good light up to a piece of toilet paper (etc.) such that a dull light shines through the bore, and focus the lens on the indexing pin in the bore, we can all see the remainders better. This takes some skill to photograph, so you can usually see it better with your eye than a camera. What do you see?

I've seen some German (Leinen) models use a fine keyway bar and I've also seen just plain round pins sticking through. Depends on what the original was. If you can get a friend to provide a shot of an original good key, you'll be making another one just like it during the rebuild. Sounds like you'll need to do it?

On the back end of the headstock -- when a special tool is required to disassemble, you must make that special tool to do the same quality work as the guys who knew what they were doing. Or, you will leave the marks of an ameteur who tried it with somethng else and chewed things up. That's not cool, so slow it down and make the tools you'll need and proceed with caution?

Did you grokk the WW83 rebuild? This could be you...

 

[wefalck]

There are spanners with two folding legs and pins at the end that should do the job. Alternatively, there is the fixed variant that looks a bit like a C-spanner, but with the pins vertical to the plane of the spanner.

Perhaps you can poke around a bit with a toothpick and see, whether you can remove any hardened grease/dirt to reveal the locking pin ... I have replaced such pins, but it is a bit of a pain to drill the rests of the old one out and then to rivet a new one back in.

 

[Betzel]

I have replaced such pins, but it is a bit of a pain to drill the rests of the old one out and then to rivet a new one back in.

Amen. The hard bearing spindle replacements are not so bad as they are accessible, but the one I want to replace is in a sealed headstock a lot like this one. I'm not proud to say it, but I had to file that one off (flush) just to use it. The bearings were in great shape though, so I think it was a fair trade. I just use the keyway facing up at 12:00 on the drawbar side to know where the collet key should go. Probably slips on interrupted cuts...

 

[wefalck]

I think some time ago we had here a discussion about the usefulness and need for that pin.

It's most obvious function is to transmit the necessary torque at heavier cuts without having to tighten the draw-tube too much. Not sure that is really relevant for watchmakers, but these lathes were used by other mechanics too, who worked on heavier items.

The second function is that it ensures that a collet is always in the same position. So when you have to re-chuck work, you can mark both, the workpiece and the collet to have everything again in (nearly) the same position, thus increasing the likelihood of cocentricity.

As a matter of fact I never bothered to replace the worn flat pin on my Wolf, Jahn & Co.(?) milling machine that takes 8 mm collets and never had serious issues with slipping spindle tooling.