Reputation System Discussion

Discussion in 'Message Board Help & Notices' started by Tom McIntyre, Mar 4, 2013.

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  1. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
    Moore NWCM Award

    May 3, 2012
    3,195
    77
    48
    Male
    Jubilado (retired)
    Costa Blanca - Spain
    Country Flag:
    David
    everything I do, I try to do for the better of others. Why not I am alone and need nothing myself.
    i am passionate about Horology, study it all the time - my collection which is pretty substantial will go to NAWCC Museum.

    any thread that runs to 10 pages has run it's course, using an inordinate amount of admin time replying. It's all bee said here now in my opinion - lets move on, or move away.

    Lets worry about Horology, leave this experiment to the administrators and move on
    on just my humble opinion.
    thanks for atl least asking
     
  2. David S

    David S Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 18, 2011
    7,146
    222
    63
    Male
    Professional Engineer - Retired
    Brockville, On Canada
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi Adam. I am with you. Just let this experiment go its course. Thank you... oh and my humble opinion as well :)
     
  3. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Ruby Member Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2000
    81,957
    1,383
    176
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I do not really mind participating in this thread.

    My approach to software deployment is to "just do it" unless there is some inherent danger in it. Most of the features of this site have been implemented on that basis.

    When there are questions or concerns, I am happy to address them. I did not lay out all the details in the beginning because I felt it would be more confusing than the simple explanation that it was for noting those with more apparent knowledge and allowing newcomers to judge when exposed to more than one conflicting answer which answer was more likely to be correct.

    The fact that no system can guarantee such performance should be understood by anyone. The goal is to do it well enough to be useful.

    As for my time, since this thread has been up, I have visited my wife's relatives in Texas and friends at the Arizona Sunshine Regional where I gave presentations on Charles DeLong and on the State of the NAWCC as well as moderating the Webinar on Vienna Regulators and talking to many members about issues relating to the association. I also spend a substantial amount of time helping the NAWCC staff with computer reports relating to membership and events. When I have too much to do, some of it slips and eventually someone else does what I did not get done.

    I am sure that everyone knows none of the Message Board Staff get any compensation for their efforts other than the satisfaction of helping others. One would need to be seriously confused to think that anyone was doing this for glory.
     
  4. leeinv66

    leeinv66 Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Mar 31, 2005
    9,542
    124
    63
    Male
    Industry Specialist
    Launceston Tasmania
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Thanks Tom, it all makes much more sense to me now.
     
  5. R.G.B.

    R.G.B. Registered User

    Feb 27, 2009
    665
    3
    18
    Photographer
    Vancouver B.C.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:

    I'm curious as to to who "They" are who used to be interested in Horology. Are they the same as the "others" who are more interested in putting others down? It's a little confusing when in the first sentence you seem to be putting down a few while criticizing others for putting people down in the next sentence.

    What's sad is a disingenuous argument that changes direction more times in a day than you can blink. In my opinion.
     
  6. Thyme

    Thyme Banned

    Sep 18, 2006
    3,948
    1
    0
    metro NY area
    I didn't notice the removal you mention, and I didn't take offense to whatever it was that you said. No apology is necessary. I neither have any animosity towards anyone nor do I hold grudges. I do have deep respect for anyone who can admit they were wrong or misspoke (as we all do occasionally), rather than engage in endless, defensive counter-argumentation in reply, as some others have done at times.

    They still are, as am I. But the discussion in some areas of this forum (such as this one in the 'problems and comments' sub-section) might focus on things like list management and how it affects everyone. Not every discussion here need be only about horology, exclusively.

    Maybe, maybe not. But that doesn't bother me at all. I tend to question everything and I don't see disagreement as being divisive. We can disagree but still respect each other for differences of opinion without becoming personal enemies. People may feel more comfortable with agreement, but we tend to learn from those with whom we disagree, because opposing points of view challenge our thinking. If everyone were always in agreement there would be no need to discuss anything - and no need for a discussion forum, eh? ;)
     
  7. Thyme

    Thyme Banned

    Sep 18, 2006
    3,948
    1
    0
    metro NY area
    Adam,

    If people are tuning in to this thread (and according to the statistical views of it that are being generated) there's a reason. Apparently many people are interested in reading it - for whatever reason. Maybe they didn't understand the new system and are gaining information that they didn't have before. It is their choice to view it. What is bad about that?

    This discussion is in the proper sub-section for it, so it is the appropriate place to discuss it. If reading it bothers you, there are many, many other threads about horological topics here for you to interact with. "Sad" for you perhaps, but you are choosing to read it and respond to it continually, rather than focus your time and effort on threads about horological topics.
     
  8. Dick C

    Dick C Registered User

    Oct 14, 2009
    1,544
    41
    48
    Male
    Country Flag:
    There is a difference...they can apply negative points and others cannot....so they are the exception
     
  9. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Ruby Member Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2000
    81,957
    1,383
    176
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    They can also edit your posts or remove them completely. The negative reputation is a very small nudge compared to the other tools that the moderators have.

    The management team is selected by Steve Humphrey based on recommendations from the current Admins and Moderators or anyone who chooses to nominate themselves or another. We police one another much more strictly than we do the general membership but we generally get along, so the remarks from fellow staff are not very harsh.
     
  10. 4thdimension

    4thdimension Registered User

    Oct 18, 2001
    2,375
    122
    63
    Country Flag:
    Off topic but I love the quote. My Mom has an old "niddy noddy" which is an antique wooden wool winder that has a similar quote carved into it that reads" When this you see/ remember me/ Bear it in mind/ and let the world say what." A sentiment with a related origin I think. -Cort
     
  11. Carl Bergquist

    Carl Bergquist Registered User

    Oct 27, 2010
    62
    0
    0
    As a amateur NAWCC member I use this MB as a very valuable resource. I seldom get to help with problems or questions, but have never been treated unkindly by anyone responding to my posts. I see absolutly no need to "rate" or "evaluate" the responses. I doubt that the responders want this. I would bet that they are happier than I if they are able to help. My fear would be that this would grow into the "feedback" system that Ebay has. I can also see than it would inhibit some responders. I vote a very big NO!
     
  12. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Ruby Member Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2000
    81,957
    1,383
    176
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Carl, the intent is to address the situation where two or more respondents have posted conflicting answers. We have had people posting here who had thousands of posts with almost no helpful content. I have no interest in stifling such members, and their wrong answers fill a need to show newcomers that not everyone who speaks with authority has the knowledge to back it up. The only way such members can be identified is by having those with a better reputation make posts to correct those in error. But how does a newcomer figure all that out?

    The reputation system is a little bit like eBay Feedback, but it is much more nuanced and the structure prevents the tit for tat behavior that plagued the original eBay Feedback system.

    I believe it will prove an asset to the Message Board once people become more comfortable using it and it builds some history.
     
  13. Thyme

    Thyme Banned

    Sep 18, 2006
    3,948
    1
    0
    metro NY area
    Tom,

    I don't see how this new system nor the parameters of it given address or correct this. I have seen lots of conflicting advice here (which I do not think is necessarily a bad thing) and often much wrong advice, as well. In these modern times of democracy being considered ideally paramount, consensus now prevails, being the currently popular equivalent of the holy grail.

    Exactly so. Just because someone posts often and voluminously does not give them authority, nor is it any indication that their advice is of value. Nor does an 'amen chorus' of others who chime in and agree mean that the proffered advice given is worthwhile. Consensus building is the realm of polling and voting, popularity and politics, not of knowledge or fact.

    So what happens when someone stands alone as a maverick in saying what he knows to be true or effective, in opposition to 'the crowd' - meaning the consensus of those who may be following ideas or traditional practices that are the equivalent of an old wives' tale -or "that's the way it's always been done, and any other way must be wrong"? How does this system intended to establish supposed 'reputation' support new ways of thinking and different methods?
    By letting him rely on his own judgment instead of having it decided for him by an imposed rating system. (Which amounts to letting adults think for themselves and respecting them as adults.)

    Like it or not, "tit for tat" has been proven to be the most effective system of negotiation that exists. It's not always pretty or comfortable, but ultimately things get sorted out without constant adjudication or monitoring. As with "caveat emptor" it's a universal law (unlike imposed laws or rules) that works where all other imposed systems and directives fail. And it doesn't require endless and constant surveillance and supervision, nor inevitable constant tinkering with the metrics of it.

    Well... <ahem> it's apparent that you defend it because you do have a vested interest in the support of it, eh? :rolleyes:
     
  14. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Ruby Member Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2000
    81,957
    1,383
    176
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I think that just leaving beginners to exercise their own judgement with no guidance is not a good solution. The reputation system is probably not ideal, but it will help beginners recognize what most people believe to be true.

    There is no mechanism to vet changes in paradigms. If those changes are valid, eventually they may win but even if they are vastly superior, they will not necessarily prevail.

    In the Encyclopedia section, we deal in "settled knowledge" and refrain from discussions of new approaches. Such discussions can take place in the forums or in blogs.

    For me, good science, good engineering and good results are the clearest path to success. New ideas have to follow that sequence just like the old ideas did.
     
  15. Thyme

    Thyme Banned

    Sep 18, 2006
    3,948
    1
    0
    metro NY area
    Ah, but that involves the presumption that a "solution" was necessary - to remedy a 'problem' that didn't (and apparently doesn't) exist. There is no proof that there is a problem that requires remediation. It's an assumption that has no foundation, the equivalent of prescribing a cure for a disease that does not exist.

    Any participating adult reading this forum could have determined that for himself - without the new rating system. The justification given is that it is supposed to offer guidance for beginners to know whom to trust. Conversely, it suggests that those with lower ratings might supposedly be less trustworthy. It also implies that beginners are incapable of making their own decisions, which seems overprotective.

    You used the words "believe to be true". A belief is one thing, and a fact is quite another. Opinions can involve either facts or beliefs, and the ensuing discussions are what makes any forum lively and interesting.

    Sure, that's appropriate as traditional methods do have value and are a source of knowledge. But as we have seen many times here, there is 'more than one way to skin a cat' (more than one way of doing things, and often no one 'correct' way). How will this be impacted by the new rating system? Will it stifle discussion? Will it steer neophytes predominantly to regarding the advice of a few who have the highest ratings? Having a high rating won't necessarily guarantee that the advice given is better or best, any more than the reader making his own evaluation based upon weighing things for himself.
     
  16. Dick C

    Dick C Registered User

    Oct 14, 2009
    1,544
    41
    48
    Male
    Country Flag:
    Tom,

    Is is a Solution looking for a Problem to solve OR a Problem looking for a Solution?
     
  17. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Ruby Member Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2000
    81,957
    1,383
    176
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Over 80% of those reading our forums never make a post and may only read a small part of the material. Those asking questions about a family timepiece rarely read for more than a few days and only post two or three times. These people do not have a good way to distinguish between answers that are inherently confusing and answers they just do not understand because of lack of background. That is the main problem I would like to address.

    I believe that the reputation system will help such visitors better understand what they are reading.

    The system will do relatively little to inform our regular users, but it provides them with the opportunity to help the casual users by rating posters who regularly post thoughtful and informative answers. The casual users will have no impact on the system since they have no reputation power.

    If we want to give casual users a voice, we will need to install additional services such as the Thank You system, I mentioned in another post.
     
  18. Thyme

    Thyme Banned

    Sep 18, 2006
    3,948
    1
    0
    metro NY area
    #168 Thyme, Mar 30, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2013
    What is bad about that? Maybe they are reading, learning from diverse viewpoints and digesting what they read.

    Tom, that is not only assumptive, it is patronizing and condescending. How do you know what is in their minds? If they don't post often, is that a bad thing? You are are assuming that they understand nothing because they don't reply often. Probably they are just being good listeners and good students. They are LURKERS. Anyone who has ever run or joined a list forum understands that. Sure, any teacher would be pleased to see an increase in active and numerous responses from the students (AKA class participation). But this forum is not a classroom and the teacher cannot coax or force the students into class participation. There may be many reasons for their lack of participation.

    It is not proven that it bothers them. It obviously doesn't bother those of us who respond often. This only bothers the administration. IMHO, that is meddlesome, and their objectives may be different than those of us who participate as ordinary respondents.

    I will say it again. It's a belief, not a fact. It is obviously your belief - because you are part of the system, are invested in it, and you are not questioning it.

    That amounts to treating adults like infants. The assumption is that if they don't speak up often, they must either be afraid of something or there must be something wrong with an open forum that needs to be corrected. Will this be a better forum if it becomes more highly restricted? Better for whom? Better for the end users or for those who run it?
    .
    They DO have a voice and have always had an unrestricted opportunity to speak. Haven't they:???:? This forum is drifting towards becoming like bad kindergarten class, where the teacher presumes that everyone in their class is somehow deficient, or frightened if they don't say anything. That's a really bad assumption. This is not a forum of five year old children requiring a nanny.

    Now I will say something stridently, that every repairer of anything already knows, which we probably all can relate to:

    If it ain't broke, DON'T FIX IT!


    Or, if you insist on such an imposition, you might do so at your peril... :rolleyes:
     
  19. R.G.B.

    R.G.B. Registered User

    Feb 27, 2009
    665
    3
    18
    Photographer
    Vancouver B.C.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Clearly this is going to result in the brutal and inhumane death of thousands of children in the third world.

    Just as I suspected. As a representative of the NAWCC Tom, you are obligated to prove to me that this horrible system is NOT tested on animals.
     
  20. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Ruby Member Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2000
    81,957
    1,383
    176
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    My remarks were not intended to describe a bad thing. I am very happy to have these casual visitors come to our Message Board. They are largely responsible for the $2,000/month in advertising revenues that we receive.

    My goal is for them to feel less frustrated.

    I know they feel frustrated because I have talked to hundreds of NAWCC members who try to find answers to relatively simple questions and are subjected to confusing debate and criticism of the questions they ask, instead of straightforward answers. I also receive well over 500 emails each month with the same theme of "Please, just give me a simple answer."

    In any case the reputation facility will be in place until I decide that the management team has enough data to determine if it is effective or not. It is no longer necessary to discuss the points of why it has been put here. All the positions have been stated.
     
  21. Dick C

    Dick C Registered User

    Oct 14, 2009
    1,544
    41
    48
    Male
    Country Flag:
    Is it a "management" team or a "leadership" team?

    Perhaps, if you are attempting to provide "simple" answers to the basic questions then you should devise a solution that utilizes stickies or some other method...like a forum topic that answers the most asked/searched topics.....rather than a "reputation" system.

    Perhaps most people who look for a "simple" answer should be spending time looking for alternatives and/or reading books!

    I am surprised that those looking for simple answers are NAWCC members.

    I have not seen many criticisms posted in this board....
     
  22. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
    NAWCC Member Deceased

    Nov 4, 2002
    40,850
    141
    63
    Male
    deceased
    Whitby, Ontario, Canada
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Dick, we have been working to make things simpler in clock repair with our terminology thread, and our beat setting thread to steer newcomers to, among others. Often the simplest answer for "why my clock doesn't work" is "because it needs service, and you should take your clock to a professional". But we don't usually start with this answer, and try to feel out the new member as to how far they want to go on their own (with our help), and how much time they want to spend learning clock repair before diving in.
     
  23. Dick C

    Dick C Registered User

    Oct 14, 2009
    1,544
    41
    48
    Male
    Country Flag:

    Harold,

    I understand. I was just responding to the message that Tom put in (shown below) to suggest that there might be a better system than this reputation system:

    Per Tom: "I know they feel frustrated because I have talked to hundreds of NAWCC members who try to find answers to relatively simple questions and are subjected to confusing debate and criticism of the questions they ask, instead of straightforward answers. I also receive well over 500 emails each month with the same theme of "Please, just give me a simple answer.""
     
  24. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
    NAWCC Member Deceased

    Nov 4, 2002
    40,850
    141
    63
    Male
    deceased
    Whitby, Ontario, Canada
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Yes, I suppose really the only way to get rid of the "confusing debate and criticism of the questions they ask" would be to have assigned experts to answer the questions, and not allow others less qualified to respond. But this would take the message board in a totally different direction that I don't think we want to take it to. This message board works because all are welcome to post, and our experts for the most part don't mind gently correcting others with better information. Many newcomers stick around, and become NAWCC members, because they do feel welcome. There is often more than one way to skin a cat, and some solutions proposed tend to upset the traditionalists and professionals, but we have to accept that the hobbyist collector won't have the tools or the talents that the professional has, so, often, the simple solution is the best fit for the newcomer. And sometimes this solution will come from a newbie who found that it worked for him. If it seems I am arguing against the reputation system, it's probably because I am. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" could be applied here, rather than "if it ain't broke, you're not trying hard enough".
     
  25. David S

    David S Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 18, 2011
    7,146
    222
    63
    Male
    Professional Engineer - Retired
    Brockville, On Canada
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Well perhaps it is just the engineer in me, but I would just like to see Tom finish his experiment / prototype and see how it all works out. We can speculate, guess, give opinions etc, but until we know how it all works and perhaps run a test we won't have the "facts". So I am still neutral, not jumping to any conclusions one way or the other. So we can chock that up to one vote for keep going.
     
  26. Thyme

    Thyme Banned

    Sep 18, 2006
    3,948
    1
    0
    metro NY area
    Ultimately money is involved, otherwise why mention it?

    I know what you mean, because I too have seen threads go off on tangents that are irrelevant to the thread topic. It can be a distraction, but hardly one worth wringing one's hands over it. But I don't know of any way of policing or changing that tendency, including irrelevant chatter, 'attaboy' posts, humorous remarks, argumentative remarks, etc.. This IS a discussion forum and that is in the nature of any list forum. It is very obvious that the accommodation of new participants (concern with their frustrations, discomforts, etc.) is being given top priority above other considerations. The problem is that this rating system won't change or improve that what you attest to be in need of remediation. They newbies will still need to wade through all the discussion if they want advice. That comes with the territory, and those who find it "frustrating" need to adapt to the experience of a discussion list. After all, if you were to cut out all the chatter it would no longer be a discussion forum, and frankly it wouldn't be very interesting, either. This an open forum - it is not exclusively a reference library.

    Obviously no amount of discussion will change your mind and any complaints will be ignored, as you are invested in making this system fly. As with any law or rule it will be virtually impossible to get it removed until it is proven to be worthless and possibly detrimental. But even then it won't be terminated, because there is the option of perpetual tinkering with the new toy.

    However I do think that the recent suggestions proposed (such as providing things such as 'stickies') would solve that which you state is the novices' frustration. Unfortunately it appears that you (and the administrators supporting the rating system) are more interested in implementing it than you are in finding and applying other alternatives that will actually solve the problem that you claim.

    You will impose it. And we can ignore it. We also can tell you we don't like it, in numbers if need be. When the number of complaints reaches that of the complaints you claim to have received from the "frustrated", maybe then equilibrium will have been reached and parity will prevail.
     
  27. Thyme

    Thyme Banned

    Sep 18, 2006
    3,948
    1
    0
    metro NY area
    Harold, I couldn't have said it better. :thumb:

    It's encouraging to know that not all the administrators are unanimous in backing this system 100%. :)
     
  28. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
    NAWCC Member Deceased

    Nov 4, 2002
    40,850
    141
    63
    Male
    deceased
    Whitby, Ontario, Canada
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    But, I am willing to let Tom experiment with it, and show me it's value. I'm not suggesting we pull the plug just yet. Feedback from other members (particularly newer ones) will likely determine it's value or lack of it, in the long run.
     
  29. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Ruby Member Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2000
    81,957
    1,383
    176
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    If one is looking for a quick and simple post mechanism for routine questions, the one we have installed is called Post Templates. it is on the far right of the edit toolbar. Post Templates were introduced to simplify some of the Encyclopedia syntax for tables, footnotes, etc. but it also works for things like reminding newcomers about the need for pictures and other simple boilerplate.

    i.e. "We can give you more help if you will provide pictures of the dial, mechanism (inside the back), and case marks on your watch." is one of the canned messages and users can provide their own through the UserCP.
     
  30. Steven Mercer

    Steven Mercer Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 24, 2001
    2,112
    10
    38
    Male
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Tom

    I have been following this discussion and I haven’t made up my mind on the Reputation System yet.

    One of the things I am finding though is a lot of these items, i.e. the star for the reputation, the triangle for the report a post, the donor symbol, the instant message symbols, the flags, the banners, etc are getting lost to all the visitors coming to the message board. With all the clutter listed above, along with the ads, I think that the most web users are used to all this peripheral distractions and have trained their brains to ignore anything in their vision that has nothing to do with what they are concentrating on.

    For instance, I have been posting messages on this board for quite a while. Until you mentioned the “Post Templates” I never even seen that on the toolbar. I actually had to go “Post New Thread” to see it and find out what was there to use.

    I think that during your experiment with the Reputation System you might find that it is not being used as you hope because the star is being ignored as a peripheral distraction.
     
  31. Thyme

    Thyme Banned

    Sep 18, 2006
    3,948
    1
    0
    metro NY area
    #181 Thyme, Mar 31, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2013
    "Sensory Overload".

    I used to call it that 35 years ago, long before the age of hyper-technological media distractions. My experience as a then young man motivated me to research and discover the actual technical, psychological term for the experience at the time (which was a technical term, not 'sensory overload' which was what I called it, in layman's terms). But I then promptly forgot the formal, technical term, because ultimately the term didn't matter, only the concept did.

    No matter what it is called, it still applies. And it is more relevant than ever.
     
  32. Clint Geller

    Clint Geller Registered User
    Gibbs Literary Award NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Member

    Jul 12, 2002
    1,547
    487
    83
    Male
    I am a research physicist at a government lab
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #182 Clint Geller, Apr 20, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2013
    It is inappropriate and in fact, insulting to refer to individuals who have posted on this website for many years and who have been thanked many times by many other participants for their various contributions, as "unknown quantities," just because a new message board feature recently has been introduced. Some different characterization, such as "this individual has not received many reputation feedbacks as of this time," would be both more accurate and more appropriate for persons in that category.
     
  33. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 16, 2008
    10,965
    266
    83
    UK
    Country Flag:
    That is unduly sensitive. Why anyone would worry about this is beyond me :???: I would be surprised if anyone posted here for the purpose of achieving visible recognition, and if so no-one will be offended by not having received "reputation points".
     
  34. Dick C

    Dick C Registered User

    Oct 14, 2009
    1,544
    41
    48
    Male
    Country Flag:
    Reputation points may be destroying the principal value of this board.
     
  35. Clint Geller

    Clint Geller Registered User
    Gibbs Literary Award NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Member

    Jul 12, 2002
    1,547
    487
    83
    Male
    I am a research physicist at a government lab
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #185 Clint Geller, Apr 21, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2013
    Marty, I am NOT offended by "not having received reputation points." I have never sought such points and have only quite recently become aware even of their existence. However, I AM offended by being referred to as an "unknown quantity" by a website to which I have contributed since it was created! At the same time, I also proposed a very reasonable solution to the issue I identified.

    In any volunteer organization, all that members ever receive for their contributions is recognition, and if you can't understand the importance of not completely ignoring people's past contributions, then I am not surprised that anything would "surprise" you.

     
  36. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Ruby Member Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2000
    81,957
    1,383
    176
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Back before this thread got so hopelessly off topic, I had asked for proposals of what the blurbs should say about the various levels of reputation.

    Is it not clear that any historical accumulated statistic will look young and awkward when first introduced? Reputation is about 5 years away from any true utility and then only if people really use it. Until then we should have more innocuous phrases and not get up tight about what the values are.

    There are alternative rating systems that would be based on threads started and posts commented up with values for numbers of responses, etc.

    I am busy now with the upgrade and finishing up my BOD responsibilities. I will spend more time on the system after July.
     
  37. Clint Geller

    Clint Geller Registered User
    Gibbs Literary Award NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Member

    Jul 12, 2002
    1,547
    487
    83
    Male
    I am a research physicist at a government lab
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I agree with the need for "more innocuous phrases." Thank you.
     
  38. Thyme

    Thyme Banned

    Sep 18, 2006
    3,948
    1
    0
    metro NY area
    I referred back to Tom's original list of phrases:

    I'm disappointed that reputation phrase #16 will not be used. :(

    To me, that says it all, and is what this system aspires to be. :rolleyes:
     
  39. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Apr 11, 2002
    21,627
    209
    63
    I work at the Veritas Tools machine shop.
    Nepean, Ontario, Canada
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I have been on this mb for many years, i think this rep system is a good thing and perhaps some just like to complain.
    I try to see the good in life and i dont see all bad in the rep system.
     
  40. Thyme

    Thyme Banned

    Sep 18, 2006
    3,948
    1
    0
    metro NY area
    #190 Thyme, Apr 21, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2013
    How is discussion of this "off topic"? My previous post was deleted by the administration for being critical in my comments.

    Apparently what is off topic is any disagreement or criticism of the administration and its policies.
     
  41. David S

    David S Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 18, 2011
    7,146
    222
    63
    Male
    Professional Engineer - Retired
    Brockville, On Canada
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Kevin I am still neutral. I am not going to guess at what it may be like, until Tom get's it all sorted out. But I am with you, until we know then, let's just let it take its course. If it turns out not to be a great thing, then I am sure the powers to be will take appropriate action.
     
  42. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Ruby Member Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2000
    81,957
    1,383
    176
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #192 Tom McIntyre, Apr 21, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2013
    I am not good at phrases and/or decoration. However, in the absence of anyone willing to comment, I will take a shot at this.

    1is infamous around these partsIs seldom helpful-999999
    2can only hope to improveProblematic-50
    3has a little shameless behavior in the pastNot always helpful-10
    4is an unknown quantity at this pointNo information0
    5is on a distinguished roadHas helped others10
    6will become famous soon enoughIs often helpful50
    7has a spectacular aura aboutIs very helpful150
    8is a jewel in the roughHelpful and knowledgeable250
    9is just really niceA good source of information350
    10is a glorious beacon of lightProvides very good help450
    11is a name known to allA leading contributor550
    12is a splendid one to beholdOne of our best resources650
    13has much to be proud ofOne of the top few1000
    14has a brilliant futureNearly our best resource1500
    15has a reputation beyond reputeA top contributor2000
     
  43. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Apr 11, 2002
    21,627
    209
    63
    I work at the Veritas Tools machine shop.
    Nepean, Ontario, Canada
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    David it just seems now some are kind of jumping their guns without getting all the facts, i want to know more about what Tom is working on.
     
  44. FDelGreco

    FDelGreco Registered User
    NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Aug 28, 2000
    1,877
    51
    48
    Male
    Retired chemical engineer
    Novelty, OH
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Tom:

    Can you convert the numerical ratings into number of bars? For example, I doubt that someone like yourself with three green bars is equal to statement #3: Not always helpful.

    Thanks.
    Frank
     
  45. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Ruby Member Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2000
    81,957
    1,383
    176
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I added the point counts to the table. Those values can also be changed to suit our needs as can the parameters for computing each persons rating power.
     
  46. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 16, 2008
    10,965
    266
    83
    UK
    Country Flag:
    A range of 15 points is too many - it will cause confusion rather than be helpful in my opinion.

    I think we should group them into 5 groups of 3 points each and represent these as stars. It's interesting that we had exactly this discussion in the thread about "thread rating" and I repeat my comment there that a 1-star to 5-star rating is instantly understood by just about everybody, it creates instant recognition, and it needs no verbiage to explain it.

    I believe we already have a board in which many features are not used either because they are solutions chasing problems, or simply because they need explanation and we have nowhere left on our already far too "busy and noisy" board to place that explanation so that it will be read. The last thing we need is more verbal explanation. As we keep saying when we ask new users here to post photos ... a picture is worth a thousand words. And stars are pictures :D
     
  47. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Ruby Member Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2000
    81,957
    1,383
    176
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Marty, on Thread Rating 1 star is "worthless" and 5 stars is "excellent" with 3 as average. There are only two positive ratings.

    We could eliminate the negative ratings for reputation and just go from 1 star for helpful to 5 stars for incredibly helpful. I think the system should continue to be a log scale so the fundamental point assignments could remain the same. i.e. no stars would be 0 to 4 then powers of 5 for each star. i.e. 5, 25, 125, 625, 3125.
     
  48. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 16, 2008
    10,965
    266
    83
    UK
    Country Flag:
    I think a 1-star thread rating meaning "worthless" is silly. It's aiming for 100% grading of threads which is equally silly if only because it will never be achieved.

    I think logarithmic scales are just adding a level of complexity to something which will only work if it is kept simple.
     
  49. Don DeMarcus

    Don DeMarcus Registered User

    Aug 26, 2000
    1,818
    2
    0
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #199 Don DeMarcus, Apr 23, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2013
    This site was never meant to be a popularity contest. As far as I am concerned it is to help other people interested in clocks or watches and answer their questions to the best of my ability.

    I have received help many times since I signed on to this site and I value everybody’s opinion. Each questions asked usually has more then one response to accomplish the needed repair or item they are looking for.

    I do not understand why any type of rating system would be necessary.
     
  50. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Ruby Member Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2000
    81,957
    1,383
    176
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    You can think of the thread rating as "no opinion" with no vote cast, "good thread" with 5 stars, "bad thread" with 1 star and one intermediate for both good and bad that mean "above average" and "below average."

    Don, it is my impression that people much younger than you and I are in a hurry and value road marks and indicators that may save them a little time. There are no prizes awarded for any of this and those who do not find it helpful can ignore it.

    Marty, just do not think about the log scale. All sensory data is measured on a log scale. It allows for meaning in a wide range of values. No one thinks about how the scale is built, they just hear the sound.
     

Share This Page