Repeater Movements Identification

[Bryan Eyring]

Anyone recognize the manufacturer of either of these? Both are minutes and the gilt unsigned is in a case simply signed "Breguet, No. 1770".
I am aware that it is not the work of Breguet.

 

[roughbarked]

Probably both based on LeCoultre.

 

[Bryan Eyring]

I was hoping that the hairspring stud on the nickel might shed some light - I know I've seen this style configuration before but can't recall - perhaps Audemars?

 

[VinSer]

The one on the left looks to me very similar to a Touchon MR6A, according to the database kept by Ethan Lipsig .

Ciao

 

[Ethan Lipsig]

VinSer pointed out the similiarity of Bryan's keyless repeater movement to what I have classified as a Type MR6A Touchon movement. It is my understanding that the Touchon movement likely is a LeCoultre Cal. UMV or RMV or based one of those ebauches. Touchon, of course, was just one of a number of firms that used those LeCoultre products. C.H. Meylan Type 7B (again, my classification) also are likely are LeCoultre Cal. UMV or RMV movements or based one of those ebauches.

 

[VinSer]

Good evening Ethan Lipsig ,

something I had seen recently and then forgot.

It appears that next to the usual suspects, also Fabrique Utinam of Georges Meyer in Besançon produced ultra-thin minute repetitions , at least according to the article from La France Horlogère of 1st July 1906.

And again for me the calibre looks pretty similar to the Touchon MR6A, including dimensions.

Since no other producer had that shape of the middle bridge, could it be that Fabrique Utinam was really the maker?

Ciao

 

[John Pavlik]

Same stud on a LS Audemars minute repeater..

 

[eric the bully]

In fact, this shape of the stud and the " tigeron avec cheville " center wheel pin were characteristic of Louis Audemars. But I think this repeater was built by Piguet Freres.
Regards enrico

 

[Bryan Eyring]

Same stud on a LS Audemars minute repeater..

Thanks John, super nice movement. Are the first 2 digits of the serial number 14? Mine is definitely not finished as nicely as your but I see some similarities.

Or, perhaps it is a Piguet Freres as Enrico suggested.

 

[John Pavlik]

Yes, first 2 #’s are 14… Another example of the hairspring stud and center “ tigeron avec cheville” as Enrico referred to … This is a perpetual calendar…. No repeat function..

 

[eric the bully]

. But I think this repeater was built by Piguet Freres.
Regards enrico

I was referring to the raw movement supplied by Piguets and completed by Audemars Freres.
When the "Ancienne Maison Louis Audemars" was liquidated, the complete watches, blanks, tools, materials and machines were divided among the three new companies. The new Louis Audemars received most of the complete movements.
Perhaps Hector and Charles Henri (Audemars Freres) used inherited material, as the center wheel pin and stud characteristic of Louis Audemars.
Regards enrico

 

[mosesgodfrey]

Great find VinSer ! It’s good to have another possibility open for a source on these. Several key features, which are matching the AF above.

Bryan Eyring nice watches! I cannot speak to the “Breguet,” but the AF looks to be US-imported in the 1900-1905 period. eri231 brings up a good point—I wonder how much material they acquired and how long it lasted.

 

[eric the bully]

It seems highly unlikely to me that an obscure assembler of ebauches had the skills to design, build the necessary equipment to build from scratch a repetition like this. The Utinam factory closed in 1911.
Regards enrico

 

[VinSer]

It seems highly unlikely to me that an obscure assembler of ebauches had the skills to design, build the necessary equipment to build from scratch a repetition like this. ...

It did not come out of nowhere: Georges Meyer was the successor of Couleru-Meuri and Hector Levy; in 1906/1907 it moved the factory from La Chaux-de-Fonds to Besancon.

... The Utinam factory closed in 1911. ...

Strange I have seen advertising of the fabrique UTINAM from 1927.

Of course if you would cite your sources once in a while, it would help.

Ciao

 

[eric the bully]

Couleru et Meuri had been taken over by Hector Levy, only in 1907 he was succeeded by Meyer who was his brother-in-law. In fact it is true Meyer has built at least one repetition.

Chronomania - Une marque défunte: UTI

Forum Chronomania - dédié aux montres mécaniques

forum.chronomania.net

Maison et atelier d'horlogerie Utinam, puis Meyer ⋅ Patrimoine en Bourgogne-Franche-Comté

patrimoine.bourgognefranchecomte.fr

Regards enrico

 

[eric the bully]

Of course if you would cite your sources once in a while, it would help.

I apologize, if my posts are not stuffed with sources that are readily available.
Regards enrico

 

[Audemars]

Perhaps Hector and Charles Henri (Audemars Freres) used inherited material, as the center wheel pin and stud characteristic of Louis Audemars.
Regards enrico

Is there a movement serial number?
P

 

[eric the bully]

On the repeater shown by Bryan Eyring there is the number 33695 in line with other AFs I've seen and on the dial it was just Audemars Freres Brassus without Geneve. There are several repeaters but with cheaper movements built by LePhare.
Regards enrico

 

[Bryan Eyring]

Here are better photos of the movement, dial, and, and case hallmark

 

[VinSer]

I apologize, if my posts are not stuffed with sources that are readily available.
Regards enrico

What you call stuffing, I call basic good manners.

By citing the sources you show respect to the persons that have done the work to find the information you are using (instead of appropriating it), and to the person reading your comments because they can immediately consult them if they are interested (instead of having to search for them).

Also why citing sources is "stuffing", while adding PDF of patents readily available online, or copying machine translations is not "stuffing"?

Ciao

P. S.: I apologize to other readers for the OT, but I never liked bullies.

 

[John Pavlik]

I hit the like symbol, but must say it was a mistake … Enrico has never bullied or demonstrated “bad” manners … I would ask the moderator to strike your personal attack on a person that has demonstrated nothing but constructive dialog to this forum… Your comments are misguided at best …

 

[roughbarked]

Did you know that if you make a mistake, hitting the like symbol a second time deletes the original like?

 

[eric the bully]

I note that in this forum, in the absence of intervention by the moderators, criticism and offenses against the participants are allowed.
I also note that in the absence of valid technical arguments for the bizarre theories, offenses and criticisms directed at my person are resorted to.
In these 11 years of dating, no one has ever resented my posts,
but those who wanted to deepen through PM I have always provided extensive documentation both of websites but also of much requested PDF books.
I also note that the gentleman who criticizes me feels authorized to dictate the guidelines of the forum, will everyone have to comply with this?

Regarding the requested links I have provided them, so the critical post as the Latins said " cui prodest "? who benefits? P.S. do I have to insert the latin link?
For automatic translations I have to use, all my life I was a truck driver I didn't attend graduates or university and during my years in East Africa I unlearned the little English I knew.
Regards eric the bully

 

[Bryan Eyring]

I am totally confused - perhaps I am naïve or completely missed something but I did not interpret anyone's post to cast aspersions or be otherwise critical of another's.

Can we pls get this thread back on track?

I am eager to hear more about the dual location on my Audemars.

Thanks!

 

[Dr. Jon]

Note from moderator.
For future discussion, I favor including references. This is not essential but I regard providing them as good manners,especially when requested.

I also believe discussion of the references is useful.

I often believe I know something but fail to recall the reference, especially if a book. I

 

[Dr. Jon]

The tigeron average chinile is a good identifier of simple Louis Audemars watches. Other makers in addition to L. Audemars used it on repeaters.

The movement layout and shape at least has L. Audemars "DNA" but the date is too late.

 

[mosesgodfrey]

Bryan Eyring there was discussion on this older thread on timing for the dual location. Note post 12 in that thread from VinSer shows an 1899 ad with “Brassus & Geneve”; however, in 1902 they were still signing movements just “Brassus”. Their dual signed movements seem to have come later.

FWIW, having now seen the dial and case markings, I will propose it was imported to the US during the grace period following the enacting of the 1909 Payne-Aldrich tariff. Roughly mid 1909-mid 1910. During that time only, you may see the country stamped on imported dials but no jewel count yet stamped (particularly on those imported as a complete watch, like yours).

 

[eric the bully]

I think this repeater was imported long before 1909 for two reasons. In 1909/10 the serial numbers of AFs were in six digits. on the dial it is written Suisse non Swiss the Tariff Act of 1909 prescribed the number of jewels and adjustments both in letters and in Arabic numerals.
Regards enrico

 

[mosesgodfrey]

It’s okay to disagree, eric the bully —but it would help to also hear your proposed date range.

Mine is just my fallible opinion, and without factory records we are all certain to be wrong to some degree. Free advice, possibly worth what it cost (=nothing). In the end, it’s up to Bryan Eyring to decide what he believes. I think we all agree, at least, that it was certainly marked for US.

To consider:
-Search 31281, and you'll find it went to Neuchatel in 1902. I will add that it is a rattrap chrono signed “Audemars Freres, Brassus.” You may say AF built 70,000 watches in the next 6 years; IMO they had multiple sn lines and/or sources, with these complicated grades as one. Signature & serial say subject watch was finished later, to me. Regardless, a watch can be sold/shipped whenever: for example, the longest build-to-sale date I've seen so far on a PPCo extract is 40 years.

-Glad you have read Payne-Aldrich tariff (PAT). It certainly reads like you’ve said. Reality was different, as I’ve said. This dial spelling—and no jewel or adj stamps on movement—would’ve been admitted for a brief time under certain constraints. If of interest, I recommend looking at the testimonies before Congress for the 1922 tariff. Several references back to the PAT transitional allowances.

-I have not found a Swiss maker that was marking country on the dial (in any spelling) for US imports before PAT. Geneva? Yes. Switzerland/Swiss/Suisse? No. Could be one out there! I’m not an AF collector. Bryan Eyring , you may have already looked up other AF watches. What have you seen on the dials?

 

[roughbarked]

I love youse guys and all that you know
but I want eri back.
Please cease and desist all this bully talk.

 

[mosesgodfrey]

…Please cease and desist all this bully talk.

Not meaning to contribute that. Trying to bridge to useful answers, usernames notwithstanding. Hopefully, we can.

 

[Audemars]

IMO they had multiple sn lines and/or sources,

1) The 5-digit serial number inside the case does not appear in the LA archive. I am interested to know if there is a different movement serial number. Perhaps under the dial.

2) As far as I am aware all three successor companies invariably used 6-digit serial numbers - apart from the movements and ébauches Inherited from the Ancienne Maison.
I have (unusually) comprehensive lists of products taken over by François and my great-grandfather, but no reference in the same source to any products taken over by Audemars Frères. That's not to say they didn't have some of François' (who was their elder brother).
My great-grandfather's acquisitions started well before the bankruptcy. François' (which were far, far fewer), just before.

3) I should also note here that not all the leftovers were acquired by the four grandsons. There is substantial evidence of a "fire sale" at the time of the 1886 liquidation. Evidently vultures flocked to Le Brassus.

4) If the successor companies also inherited their fathers' and grandfather's laissez-faire attitudes to serial numbering systems, cash flow and general book-keeping (and there is no reason to think they didn't), I'm not surprised their businesses all came to sticky ends.

5) I fervently echo Roughbarked's sentiment. I want Eri back. Please.

Paul

 

[mosesgodfrey]

Well, I suppose enough info was given, as the piece is now for sale.

If anyone cares, here at last is the bookend on dual signature. Audemars Freres opened their Geneva office on 1 June 1902.

 

[Bryan Eyring]

I will try to post a photo of under the dial here in the upcoming week or so - thanks everyone!