Repairing of old Koma Clock

DrW

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Check it for notches in the fork. Also this is a fine adjustment you only need a small clearance, the thickness of a sheet of paper or less.
Thank you. There are no notches on fork, only scratches from the screwdriver with which I expanded the fork back after compression.
I started the clock again with the same result - half an hour of running.
I can also speculate that hypothetically, the problem may be a mismatch of the new suspension spring. Because the old one was slightly wider than the new one. I did not know which one to choose, I sent a photo of the back plate to one store and there was recommended to take 0.081mm.
And as far as I understand it is the thickness, not the width. I have nothing to measure the thickness of such dimensions, but the width of the old one is about 1 mm, and the new one is slightly smaller, maybe about 0.8 mm. But I also have a new mainspring that are also a little narrow, than older, a couple of mm.
 

KurtinSA

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The width of the suspension spring does have an impact, so it is important. However, the suspension spring you have is not likely the cause of why the clock will only run 15-30 minutes. The spring dimensions will control regulation, as in, does it keep time or not. You problem is either main spring power, excess friction in the power train, or loss of power with the escapement.

As for main springs, it appears that your clock came with two different main springs which relied on the manufacturer changing the barrels. One main spring is 13mm wide and the other is 15mm wide. You can't put the 15mm spring in a 13mm barrel! And you wouldn't want to use the smaller spring in the bigger barrel...not much power.

Kurt
 

DrW

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The width of the suspension spring does have an impact, so it is important. However, the suspension spring you have is not likely the cause of why the clock will only run 15-30 minutes. The spring dimensions will control regulation, as in, does it keep time or not. You problem is either main spring power, excess friction in the power train, or loss of power with the escapement.

As for main springs, it appears that your clock came with two different main springs which relied on the manufacturer changing the barrels. One main spring is 13mm wide and the other is 15mm wide. You can't put the 15mm spring in a 13mm barrel! And you wouldn't want to use the smaller spring in the bigger barrel...not much power.

Kurt
Thank you.
Not exactly my case - the main spring was 1.9x130 cm, and the new one is 1.8x125. So it's also a little shorter. I chose the size as close as possible to old one.
 

DrW

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1.9cm? That's pretty wide.

Kurt
Judging by the ratio with the inner wall wide of the barrel, I would not say so, it's possible that even a 20 mm wide mainspring could probably fit there or maybe even a little more.
This clock not work about 15 years, I thought, maybe they need to work for a while without part 2, to rub down the details a little, perhaps then the "torque" on the desired wheel will be advanced... or WD-40, or both :)
 

KurtinSA

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OK, I guess I'm getting confused with which type of Koma clock you have. It seems your plate is not in the repair guide, not what that logo in the lower left. But there are other narrow plates by Konrad Mauch that do take a 20mm wide spring...the barrel is 38mm in diameter. A 20x38 spring is nominally 1346mm long and 0.41mm thick. The thickness is really what matters...a shorter spring will likely not run 400 days.

Kurt
 

DrW

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OK, I guess I'm getting confused with which type of Koma clock you have. It seems your plate is not in the repair guide, not what that logo in the lower left. But there are other narrow plates by Konrad Mauch that do take a 20mm wide spring...the barrel is 38mm in diameter. A 20x38 spring is nominally 1346mm long and 0.41mm thick. The thickness is really what matters...a shorter spring will likely not run 400 days.

Kurt
I really don't need a 400 days. Even week will be enough for me.
 

Wayne A

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I can also speculate that hypothetically, the problem may be a mismatch of the new suspension spring. Because the old one was slightly wider than the new one. I did not know which one to choose, I sent a photo of the back plate to one store and there was recommended to take 0.081mm.
And as far as I understand it is the thickness, not the width. I have nothing to measure the thickness of such dimensions, but the width of the old one is about 1 mm, and the new one is slightly smaller, maybe about 0.8 mm. But I also have a new mainspring that are also a little narrow, than older, a couple of mm.
That suspension spring may be a problem. Think your clock is close to the guides plate 1395B which has the suspension spring .89mm.

Can you run a test with a stopwatch and time how long it takes the pendulum to make 8 rotations timed from stop to stop? Should be about one minute but if that suspension spring is way off it could be much less and then we will know if perhaps its so rigid the clock cannot spin it.
 
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DrW

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That suspension spring may be a problem. Think your clock is close to the guides plate 1395B which has the suspension spring .89mm.

Can you run a test with a stopwatch and time how long it takes the pendulum to make 8 rotations timed from stop to stop? Should be about one minute but if that suspension spring is way off it could be much less and then we will know if perhaps its so rigid the clock cannot spin it.
Mounted now suspension spring is new - .0032'' - .081mm
And it rotates much longer than the old one, on the old one (I don't know its thickness and I have nothing to measure it with) it was possible to achieve no more than 15 minutes of movement of the arrows, on the new one up to 35 minutes.
I don't quite understand about 8 turns from one end to the other, do I need to make 4 turns in one direction?
Wouldn't that ruin the suspension spring?
 

KurtinSA

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Wayne is talking about natural rotations of the pendulum. He's talking about the time it takes to go from the point where the pendulum has stopped rotating one direction to the point where the pendulum stops rotating the other direction. From stop-to-stop, it nominally should be 8 seconds...smaller clocks tend to have quicker times, like 10 seconds.

Kurt
 

DrW

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Wayne is talking about natural rotations of the pendulum. He's talking about the time it takes to go from the point where the pendulum has stopped rotating one direction to the point where the pendulum stops rotating the other direction. From stop-to-stop, it nominally should be 8 seconds...smaller clocks tend to have quicker times, like 10 seconds.

Kurt
What is "natural rotations of the pendulum"? How many degrees? I think that time of pendulum rotation will depend on degrees of pendulum rotation.
 

KurtinSA

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Turn the pendulum say 90 degrees one direction...let the pendulum go. Now it is rotating "naturally". The number of degrees doesn't really matter...some clocks are happy with a total of 360, most see 270, and others will run with only 180 degrees of total rotation. The critical item in any good running anniversary clock is that you have sufficient over swing, on the order of about 20+ degrees or more.

Time of pendulum rotation doesn't depend on the degrees of rotation. These clocks have what's called an isochronal motion...that is the the time or rotation is the same however the speed might be different. If a clock is well set up and you get a solid 270 degrees of rotation with good over swing, the rate of rotation will be fast...it has to be to get all the way around 270 degrees in 7.5 seconds. It takes 8 beats for 60 seconds or one beat per 7.5 seconds. If the clock has weak output but nevertheless runs OK but only has 180 degrees of rotation, the speed will be less as it will still get to the other stop in 7.5 seconds but doesn't have to go as far so not as fast.

I looked at one of your videos and noticed when the fork stopped moving one direction. I then timed three beats and get about 24 seconds. That's 8 seconds per beat. That was somewhat crude in what I could look at for timing purposes, but it appears your time regulation is slow.

Kurt
 
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DrW

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Turn the pendulum say 90 degrees one direction...let the pendulum go. Now it is rotating "naturally". The number of degrees doesn't really matter...some clocks are happy with a total of 360, most see 270, and others will run with only 180 degrees of total rotation. The critical item in any good running anniversary clock is that you have sufficient over swing, on the order of about 20+ degrees or more.

Time of pendulum rotation doesn't depend on the degrees of rotation. These clocks have what's called an isochronal motion...that is the the time or rotation is the same however the speed might be different. If a clock is well set up and you get a solid 270 degrees of rotation with good over swing, the rate of rotation will be fast...it has to be to get all the way around 270 degrees in 7.5 seconds. It takes 8 beats for 60 seconds or one beat per 7.5 seconds. If the clock has weak output but nevertheless runs OK but only has 180 degrees of rotation, the speed will be less as it will still get to the other stop in 7.5 seconds but doesn't have to go as far so not as fast.

I looked at one of your videos and noticed when the fork stopped moving one direction. I then timed three beats and get about 24 seconds. That's 8 seconds per beat. That was somewhat crude in what I could look at for timing purposes, but it appears your time regulation is slow.

Kurt
I turned the pendulum on 90 degrees one direction & let the pendulum go. From stop to stop a little more than 90 degrees in 8 seconds.
Next on 180 deg. = 360 deg. in 8 sec.
 
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KurtinSA

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OK. Are you making these measurements over 8 beats and using the total time divided by 8? One beat measurement is not going to be that accurate.

Kurt
 

DrW

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OK. Are you making these measurements over 8 beats and using the total time divided by 8? One beat measurement is not going to be that accurate.

Kurt
Sorry, forgot to reset the stopwatch.
1 distance (about 270 deg.) from stop to stop (from left to right) 8 sec.
8 dis. - 1 min 3,87 sec.
 
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KurtinSA

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I can see that 1 min 3.87 sec is 63.87 seconds divided by 8 is 7.98. Pretty darn close to 8 seconds per beat. As I mentioned it should be 7.5 seconds per beat for your clock. You're 4 seconds too slow. The rule of thumb with Horolovar springs is a change in 0.0001" equates to 4 sec per minute of timing. Running slow indicates your suspension spring thickness is too thin by about 0.0001", depending on where you are with the pendulum rating nut.

Kurt
 
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Wayne A

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Sorry, forgot to reset the stopwatch.
1 distance (about 270 deg.) from stop to stop (from left to right) 8 sec.
8 dis. - 1 min 3,87 sec.
Ok it sounds like the the suspension spring is not a problem that could prevent the clock from running.

Have you tried to adjust the beat with the new suspension spring?

Koma Beat adjust.jpg
 

DrW

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I can see that 1 min 3.87 sec is 63.87 seconds divided by 8 is 7.98. Pretty darn close to 8 seconds per beat. As I mentioned it should be 7.5 seconds per beat for your clock. You're 4 seconds too slow. The rule of thumb with Horolovar springs is a change in 0.0001" equates to 4 sec per minute of timing. Running slow indicates your suspension spring thickness is too thin by about 0.0001", depending on where you are with the pendulum rating nut.

Kurt
This is not important at the current stage, since if they don't work, what's the difference at what speed they don't work. :cool:
 

DrW

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Ok it sounds like the the suspension spring is not a problem that could prevent the clock from running.

Have you tried to adjust the beat with the new suspension spring?

View attachment 640275
Yes, Today I even, under the supervision of a magnifying glass and directional lighting, adjusted part 1 to achieve the perfect congruence between the bevels on teeth 2 and 5 (wheel). But the power of 5 is not enough to push the 2, the oscillation dies out at the maximum winding of the mainspring in 35 minutes, and at a minimum - in 20 minutes.
The clock starts when the pendulum is twisted 180 degrees in one direction, full rotation is 360-180 degrees, after 90 degrees the wheel does not go any more.
Thanks again to everyone for helpful advice and moral support.
As I said before, some things cannot be fixed.
 

Wayne A

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Thanks again to everyone for helpful advice and moral support.
As I said before, some things cannot be fixed.
I think any machine can be fixed with time and money. :)

Beat setting is a little tedious and just a little off and the clock will not run.
 

KurtinSA

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Normally, the steps are to adjust your 1 (or eccentric nut) so that the drops are even for each tooth of 5 (escape wheel) as they fall off pallets. Once you achieve that, you never touch the eccentric nut again. Then you slowly move the anchor pin back and forth with a finger, looking at the point where a tooth just falls onto the locking surface of the pallet. It needs to be enough but not to much, and it should be equal on both pallets. If they are not adjusted right, then the anchor has to come out of the clock and the pallets adjusted accordingly. The pallets are called "entrance pallet" because a tooth drops onto the pallet from the outside and it in effect entering the anchor. The other pallet is called the "exit pallet" because a tooth is falling onto the pallet on the inside and will eventually fall off the pallet and be exiting the anchor system. I know that's probably pretty confusing. But to correct the locking of the escape wheel teeth onto the pallets, either entrance or exit pallet needs to be extended or retracted. Rather than getting into what to do, it's probably best that you make a very small change and see what happens to your entrance/exit pallets. If you changed correctly, then things got better; if the change was the wrong direction, things got worse. Keep track of what you're doing. Measure a part of the pallets in such a way that you can repeat the measurement each time to document which one you moved and how much. That way if you made a wrong choice, you can back up to the previous values and try again.

Kurt
 

DrW

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I think any machine can be fixed with time and money. :)

Beat setting is a little tedious and just a little off and the clock will not run.
There is a fine line between repair and restoration. The first option is a way to save money. The second option is a hobby. :cool:
 

DrW

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Normally, the steps are to adjust your 1 (or eccentric nut) so that the drops are even for each tooth of 5 (escape wheel) as they fall off pallets. Once you achieve that, you never touch the eccentric nut again. Then you slowly move the anchor pin back and forth with a finger, looking at the point where a tooth just falls onto the locking surface of the pallet. It needs to be enough but not to much, and it should be equal on both pallets. If they are not adjusted right, then the anchor has to come out of the clock and the pallets adjusted accordingly. The pallets are called "entrance pallet" because a tooth drops onto the pallet from the outside and it in effect entering the anchor. The other pallet is called the "exit pallet" because a tooth is falling onto the pallet on the inside and will eventually fall off the pallet and be exiting the anchor system. I know that's probably pretty confusing. But to correct the locking of the escape wheel teeth onto the pallets, either entrance or exit pallet needs to be extended or retracted. Rather than getting into what to do, it's probably best that you make a very small change and see what happens to your entrance/exit pallets. If you changed correctly, then things got better; if the change was the wrong direction, things got worse. Keep track of what you're doing. Measure a part of the pallets in such a way that you can repeat the measurement each time to document which one you moved and how much. That way if you made a wrong choice, you can back up to the previous values and try again.

Kurt
That's a hobby. :cool:
 

DrW

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It was achieve an increase in the operating time upto 40 minutes, at the maximum winding of the mainspring (previously upto 35), operating at 180 degrees from stop to stop, with a starting spin of 90 degrees, after adjustment pallets according to the "Airy" principle - "It would be exactly satisfied if the escape wheel teeth were made to fall exactly on the corner between the two pallet faces "- Anchor escapement | Wikiwand
Found another interesting webpage - "A clock is usually taken to the shop for repair because the clock fails to keep running. It runs for a while and stops because not enough power reaches the pendulum to keep it running. One way to get it running is to double the weight "- Clock and Watch Escapement Mechanics
I didn't quite understand what it means - "to double the weight"? Are they talking about a different type of clock with weights? In the case of a 400-days clock, this principle should sounds like - "to double the force/length of the main spring"?
 

Wayne A

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I didn't quite understand what it means - "to double the weight"? Are they talking about a different type of clock with weights? In the case of a 400-days clock, this principle should sounds like - "to double the force/length of the main spring"?
Correct, a weight driven clock using greater weight to overcome increased friction or wear.
 

tracerjack

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I know you are still working on getting the clock to run, but I would like to go back to the basics. I think I read in the posts that you took the movement apart and cleaned it, as well as the mainspring. Did you use grease or oil to lubricate the mainspring? 400 day mainsprings will not function properly with grease.
 

DrW

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I know you are still working on getting the clock to run, but I would like to go back to the basics. I think I read in the posts that you took the movement apart and cleaned it, as well as the mainspring. Did you use grease or oil to lubricate the mainspring? 400 day mainsprings will not function properly with grease.
As in youtube video guide was said - only a little oil on mainspring ...
I have tried using a grease type of solidol, but only on the gears and bushings, not on the main spring. But after that the speed of arrows movement without the deadbeat Anchor decreased and I removed it completely, cleaned everything, leaves only the oil.
I just thought about the idea with "weights", ie. in case of loss of power at the escape wheel, it's needed either increase the power at the escape wheel or reduce the demand for the power required from it.
I noticed that after the last adjustment of the pallets, without the pendulum, the wheel began to move swinging the deadbeat Anchor. So, hypothetically, if the weight of the pendulum is reduced, the clock can begin work. I disassembled the balls on the pendulum - there are lead balls inside, what if to reduce the amount of lead in them?
 

KurtinSA

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The suspension spring and the pendulum weight are designed to work with each other...they represent a "spring-mass system". Adding or subtracting pendulum weight just messes up time regulation. Similarly, if you change the thickness of the spring, you mess up time regulation. So, if you have the proper suspension spring and the original pendulum (weight-wise), the problem with the clock running must be somewhere else.

Kurt
 

tracerjack

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If, as Kurt already covered, the parts of your clock are original and the suspension spring is correct, then the problem is not there.
Usual problems are;

1. Not enough power is getting to the escape wheel.
Sticky mainspring, old oil and bent pivots are the main problems.

2. The anchor pallets are not engaging the escape wheel correctly.
The eccentric nut has been moved from its factory placement, or the bracket has been moved.
The pallets have been moved from their factory placement.
The escape wheel teeth have been damaged.

3. It is not in beat.

I think you have gotten #3, but there are still places to look for why your clock won't stay running.
 

DrW

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The suspension spring and the pendulum weight are designed to work with each other...they represent a "spring-mass system". Adding or subtracting pendulum weight just messes up time regulation. Similarly, if you change the thickness of the spring, you mess up time regulation. So, if you have the proper suspension spring and the original pendulum (weight-wise), the problem with the clock running must be somewhere else.

Kurt
The fact that the problem lies elsewhere is understandable. But what's the solution? If, without the pendulum, the escape wheel has enough strength to move the deadbeat Anchor, the weight of the pendulum probably plays a role in forming the resistance that the escape wheel must overcome in order to move the deadbeat Anchor.
 

DrW

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If, as Kurt already covered, the parts of your clock are original and the suspension spring is correct, then the problem is not there.
Usual problems are;

1. Not enough power is getting to the escape wheel.
Sticky mainspring, old oil and bent pivots are the main problems.

2. The anchor pallets are not engaging the escape wheel correctly.
The eccentric nut has been moved from its factory placement, or the bracket has been moved.
The pallets have been moved from their factory placement.
The escape wheel teeth have been damaged.

3. It is not in beat.

I think you have gotten #3, but there are still places to look for why your clock won't stay running.
Thank you. I've already tried this. The question is not why the watch doesn’t run - the most likely answer is the loss of power at the escape wheel.
The question is, what can be done to make it run in such circumstances?
A certain force is applied to the escape wheel from mainspring, which should overpower the force of the torsion pendulum. So it is necessary either to increase the force applied to the wheel from mainspring, or to reduce the resistance force from the torsion pendulum. It's impossible to increase the force applied to the wheel from mainspring, but it's possible to reduce the resistance force from the torsion pendulum by reducing it's weight...
 

Wayne A

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It's impossible to increase the force applied to the wheel from mainspring, but it's possible to reduce the resistance force from the torsion pendulum by reducing it's weight...
Well you indicated you replaced the mainspring with one a little shorter but how did the thickness compare to the original? Small changes in any dimension will make a difference in available power.
 

tracerjack

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Powering the escape wheel without the weight of the pendulum does not mean the escape wheel is receiving enough power from the mainspring. If it were, it would power the pendulum as is. It is also not accurate to say that it is impossible to improve the power from the mainspring. Many rough pivot holes are very difficult to identify even with magnification. The same is true of slightly bent pivots and gears that mess well, but not efficiently.

There is no harm in reducing the weight of the pendulum to see if the clock will run, but as Kurt mentioned, time keeping will be thrown off.

I can sympathize with your frustration, as I have spent many hours simply watching an escape wheel go round and round trying to discover why a certain clock keeps stoping.
 

DrW

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Well you indicated you replaced the mainspring with one a little shorter but how did the thickness compare to the original? Small changes in any dimension will make a difference in available power.
I don't know that because I don't know and can't measure the thickness of old one springs...
 

DrW

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Powering the escape wheel without the weight of the pendulum does not mean the escape wheel is receiving enough power from the mainspring. If it were, it would power the pendulum as is. It is also not accurate to say that it is impossible to improve the power from the mainspring. Many rough pivot holes are very difficult to identify even with magnification. The same is true of slightly bent pivots and gears that mess well, but not efficiently.

There is no harm in reducing the weight of the pendulum to see if the clock will run, but as Kurt mentioned, time keeping will be thrown off.

I can sympathize with your frustration, as I have spent many hours simply watching an escape wheel go round and round trying to discover why a certain clock keeps stoping.
Knowledge should be proven by experiment. :cool: Tomorrow I'll go to buy a small fishing weights...
 

Wayne A

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I don't know that because I don't know and can't measure the thickness of old one springs...
Well then we move on to try something else. Have you experimented with the position of the fork below the upper block? The guide books close match for your clock calls for a 5mm gap between the fork and the upper block. I'd suggest trying to lower the fork to increase the gap to 6mm and give it a try.
 

DrW

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Well then we move on to try something else. Have you experimented with the position of the fork below the upper block? The guide books close match for your clock calls for a 5mm gap between the fork and the upper block. I'd suggest trying to lower the fork to increase the gap to 6mm and give it a try.
Tried it - if lower the fork the pin of deadbeat Anchor enters the fork rigidly, accordingly, the pin does not swing and the clock does not work...
 

DrW

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Experiment 1: each of 4 lead balls is taken out of the pendulum, each weighing 50 grams. After putting the pendulum in place, the pendulum began to rotate by itself, the wheel is spinning, the clock is running ...:cool:
The task for the next experiment is to find what weight of the pendulum is critical for stopping the clock!
PS. The clock was stopped after 5 minutes!
Experiment 2: With two lead balls - 33 minutes.
 
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DrW

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With 4 lead balls - 35 minutes.
So, the experiments not proved my hypothesis.
Reducing the weight of the pendulum by 100 grams - has almost no effect, and by 200 grams has clearly the opposite effect.:cool:
 

MuseChaser

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.... ...
I have tried using a grease type of solidol, but only on the gears and bushings, not on the main spring. But after that the speed of arrows movement without the deadbeat Anchor decreased and I removed it completely, cleaned everything, leaves only the oil.
.....
I just read this entire thread for the first time. You've gotten some great advice from others much more knowledgeable and experienced than me. As others have said, don't give up.

Two things struck me. I don't know what "solidol" is, but the words "grease" and "WD40" strike fear into my heart, especially for these clocks. Except for the mainspring, the only lubrication should be a tiny drop of clock oil (fine machine? Lightweight?) applied to the pivot holes on the front and backplate, and maybe a tiny drop on one or two teeth of the escape wheel. 0w20 synthetic motor oil works well on the mainspring.

The only thing "miraculous" about WD40 is that people still think it's a lubricant. It's a great, sometimes miraculous cleaner for duct tape residue and other nasty stuff, and it protects things from rusting ("WD" stands for "Water Displacement"), but it is WORTHLESS as anything other than an extremely short term lubricant. Over a short period of time, it turns gummy, attracts dirt, and causes much more harm than good when used as such. I would go so far as to say it should never be used on a clock movement for any reason.

Is it possible that the clock would benefit from one more good cleaning, stripping ALL residual lubricants from it, maybe even see how it functions dry, before judicious application of small amounts of appropriate lubrication?
 
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KurtinSA

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MuseChaser has a good point. When I've finished cleaning a movement and plates, I assemble dry...except the main spring which has been cleaned and lubed separately...and then I begin my testing to see how the clock runs. I try to get 12-24 hours running out of it before I add the motion works/hands. Then another 12-24 with the motion works/hands. If the clock presents well at that point, I go about my finally oiling of the pivots using a dip-oiler at each oil sink and then put the dial on.

Kurt
 

DrW

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I just read this entire thread for the first time. You've gotten some great advice from others much more knowledgeable and experienced than me. As others have said, don't give up.

Two things struck me. I don't know what "solidol" is, but the words "grease" and "WD40" strike fear into my heart, especially for these clocks. Except for the mainspring, the only lubrication should be a tiny drop of clock oil (fine machine? Lightweight?) applied to the pivot holes on the front and backplate, and maybe a tiny drop on one or two teeth of the escape wheel. 0w20 synthetic motor oil works well on the mainspring.
Most likely it was not even a solidol, but a lithol ( lithium grease). And as I wrote earlier after that, I completely disassembled & cleaned the whole mechanism.
The only thing "miraculous" about WD40 is that people still think it's a lubricant. It's a great, sometimes miraculous cleaner for duct tape residue and other nasty stuff, and it protects things from rusting ("WD" stands for "Water Displacement"), but it is WORTHLESS as anything other than an extremely short term lubricant. Over a short period of time, it turns gummy, attracts dirt, and causes much more harm than good when used as such. I would go so far as to say it should never be used on a clock movement for any reason.

Is it possible that the clock would benefit from one more good cleaning, stripping ALL residual lubricants from it, maybe even see how it functions dry, before judicious application of small amounts of appropriate lubrication?
I don't think so. But thank you for your time.
 

Mike Phelan

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Dec 17, 2003
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If I'm using Horolene (ammonia based cleaner) it's obvious if any brass wheels have been in WD40; they turn bright greeny-blue!
 

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Rockford's early high grade movements by Greg Frauenhoff