• For those of you who were having issues connecting to the Forums, it turns out that our modem was not functioning properly. We have replaced it now and the connection to the Forums has been restored. Thank you for your patience.

Repairing of old Koma Clock

DrW

Registered User
Feb 1, 2021
55
3
8
46
Country
I decided to restore my father's old Koma 400 days clock (they are probably 30 years old or more), which had not worked for a long time.
The first thing that turned out was that the mainspring was broken, which I successfully purchased and replaced, thanks to YouTube for guiding.
But unfortunately, even after a very good winding of the mainspring, the clock ran no more than 10-15 minutes, depending on how many degrees the pendulum was initially twisted.
I thought that maybe the problem is that the suspension spring has lost its properties with time, I also purchased and replaced it. But this did not give any effect, the clock also runs no more than 10 minutes.
I tried to adjust the fork at the suspension spring in height, I tried to adjust the "studs" on the swinging block blocking the wheel of the main mechanism, I tried to adjust the position of the axis on which this block is located - everything is pointless.
Without a block of suspension spring mechanism, the arrows rotate like a propeller ...
Unfortunately, in Moscow (the capital of Russia), I haven't found any official workshop that would repair such clock.
I would be grateful for any advice on my further actions.
In several places I have already been told that most likely my watch is in a very bad condition, and of course I understand this, but this is a mechanism, something can probably be done?
 

KurtinSA

NAWCC Member
Nov 24, 2014
4,165
220
63
San Antonio, TX
Country
Region
I didn't hear what sound like getting the beat set properly. During the rotation of the pendulum in one direction, you should here the clock make a "tick" sound and then rotate a bit further before stopping. Place something around the base to mark these two points in the rotation. Do the same as the pendulum rotations the other direction. First, the amount of rotation past the "tick" sound should be the same amount. If not the clock is not in beat. Second, that amount of rotation should be more than say 15-20 degrees. I might increase over time if the clock gains power, but if it drops over time, then you're next problem is with the escapement.

A few good pictures of the clock and clear shots of the back plate might help with the sorting of the problem.

Kurt
 

DrW

Registered User
Feb 1, 2021
55
3
8
46
Country
I didn't hear what sound like getting the beat set properly. During the rotation of the pendulum in one direction, you should here the clock make a "tick" sound and then rotate a bit further before stopping. Place something around the base to mark these two points in the rotation. Do the same as the pendulum rotations the other direction. First, the amount of rotation past the "tick" sound should be the same amount. If not the clock is not in beat. Second, that amount of rotation should be more than say 15-20 degrees. I might increase over time if the clock gains power, but if it drops over time, then you're next problem is with the escapement.

A few good pictures of the clock and clear shots of the back plate might help with the sorting of the problem.

Kurt
No, to start the clock, the pendulum was twisted by more than 360 degrees.
I don't quite understand what is terminologically in this case a "beat" or a "tick", but during the full swing cycle of the fork, i.e. from the left and to the right, the wheel under the block rotate by one division.

koma1.JPG koma2.JPG koma4.JPG
 

Wayne A

NAWCC Member
Sep 24, 2019
574
90
28
Country
Region
Yep 1st thing to check is beat because if its not set the clock will not run. The clock gives a small push to the pendulum for each direction of rotation and these pushes must be timed properly with the natural center of the suspension spring and pendulum. Its accomplished by rotating the part suspending the suspension spring the saddle. Its a very sensitive adjustment and easy to over adjust past where it needs to be.

Check that the fork clamped on the suspension spring has clearance to the pin on the anchor, 1-3 thousandths clearance. Too tight is bad and very loose is bad.

You do not need to spin the pendulum 360deg, 180-200deg is enough. Even when the clock is not working at all it will swing for 10 min when given this starting spin.

Looking at the pictures the clock is not level. You want the pendulum to rotate in the center of the cup on the base and not touch anything.

Wayne
 

DrW

Registered User
Feb 1, 2021
55
3
8
46
Country
Try watching this video...he talks about the click and the over swing. Since his clock wasn't in beat, he had to turn the top saddle which holds the top of the suspension spring to adjust.

BEAT SETTING ON 400 DAY ANNIVERSARY CLOCKS - YouTube

Kurt
Thank you.
I watched this video before, but did not quite understand what it is about. What exactly makes this sound (tick or tock)? Is the fork hitting the edges of the fasteners? Why do I need to focus specifically on the sound when I see the movement of the fork itself. I even read - Adjusting a 400-day clock
But also did not quite understand what tick and tock are, but I realized that the fork should go left and right at the same distance. And in my clock fork after the initial rotation of the pendulum at 360 degrees. reaches the lateral position on the one side, but with unwinding only the center position. Of course, if initially rotate it by 3 turns (3x360 deg.), then the fork will go the to same distance lateral positions on both side.
I'll try to watch this video again...
 

DrW

Registered User
Feb 1, 2021
55
3
8
46
Country
Yep 1st thing to check is beat because if its not set the clock will not run. The clock gives a small push to the pendulum for each direction of rotation and these pushes must be timed properly with the natural center of the suspension spring and pendulum. Its accomplished by rotating the part suspending the suspension spring the saddle. Its a very sensitive adjustment and easy to over adjust past where it needs to be.

Check that the fork clamped on the suspension spring has clearance to the pin on the anchor, 1-3 thousandths clearance. Too tight is bad and very loose is bad.

You do not need to spin the pendulum 360deg, 180-200deg is enough. Even when the clock is not working at all it will swing for 10 min when given this starting spin.

Looking at the pictures the clock is not level. You want the pendulum to rotate in the center of the cup on the base and not touch anything.

Wayne
Thank you. It's kind of tuning a stringed musical instrument. I'm going to have a hard time.
 

KurtinSA

NAWCC Member
Nov 24, 2014
4,165
220
63
San Antonio, TX
Country
Region
The tick and tock are what happens when the escape wheel tooth drops from one curved pallet and another tooth drops onto the opposite curved pallet. Best thing I can say is that get eye-level with the back of the clock, put some good light on the movement, and watch what happens. The top most item in the power train is the anchor...it has two curved pallets on either side and a long pin that stick straight up. The next item down the train is the escape wheel...it has something like 15 or 20 thin teeth all the way around. As the teeth drop off and onto the pallets, the anchor pin pushes on the fork which in turn creates an additional twist in the suspension spring. This additional twist is what translates to adding power to the pendulum rotation so that it doesn't die over time.

I'm not sure I understand the need to turn the pendulum 3x360 degrees...that's way too much for the escapement action to take place. Something seems very wrong if you're having to do this. Not to mention, that you run the risk of putting a permanent twist in the suspension spring.

Kurt
 
  • Like
Reactions: DrW

Kevin W.

NAWCC Member
Apr 11, 2002
22,979
500
113
63
Nepean, Ontario, Canada
Country
Region
Title of thread says watch. But you are discussing a clock. I reported it so a mod can change the title. In years to come it will help if one does a search.
 

DrW

Registered User
Feb 1, 2021
55
3
8
46
Country
The tick and tock are what happens when the escape wheel tooth drops from one curved pallet and another tooth drops onto the opposite curved pallet. Best thing I can say is that get eye-level with the back of the clock, put some good light on the movement, and watch what happens. The top most item in the power train is the anchor...it has two curved pallets on either side and a long pin that stick straight up. The next item down the train is the escape wheel...it has something like 15 or 20 thin teeth all the way around. As the teeth drop off and onto the pallets, the anchor pin pushes on the fork which in turn creates an additional twist in the suspension spring. This additional twist is what translates to adding power to the pendulum rotation so that it doesn't die over time.

I'm not sure I understand the need to turn the pendulum 3x360 degrees...that's way too much for the escapement action to take place. Something seems very wrong if you're having to do this. Not to mention, that you run the risk of putting a permanent twist in the suspension spring.

Kurt
Thank you.
At first, I noticed that the axle with a "block" with "teeth", is not parallel to the other axes of the watch, the position of this axle is adjusted by rotating a disc with a hole for the axle in the front plate of the watch, but when I set this axis parallel to others, then at any setting of the length of "teeth" of the block, the wheel under the block stick or slips, because apparently the block is too high above the wheel. As a result, I returned the "obliquity" of the axis back, so the block get down again and in the process of swinging only one "tooth" of the wheel began to pass through ...
I hear 2 silent clicks that correspond to the movement of the minute hand, it's about 2 rotations of the pendulum after one click and 4-5 after another or something like that, I'm not sure...
 

KurtinSA

NAWCC Member
Nov 24, 2014
4,165
220
63
San Antonio, TX
Country
Region
I noticed that the axle with a "block" with "teeth", is not parallel to the other axes of the watch, the position of this axle is adjusted by rotating a disc with a hole for the axle in the front plate of the watch, but when I set this axis parallel to others, then at any setting of the length of "teeth" of the block, the wheel under the block stick or slips, because apparently the block is too high above the wheel.
I'm not sure you should have done that. Typically, the "adjustment" you refer to is made by viewing the clock from the back and moving the bracket that supports the saddle for the suspension spring. The two screws holding it onto the back plate are loosened which lets the bracket float. The bracket is used to adjust the locks and drops while viewing the action of the teeth on the pallets. When a tooth falls off the pallet, the distance between the tooth and the pallet is called the drop. When a tooth falls onto a pallet, the amount of the tooth that lands on the pallet is called the lock. The locks and drops should be nearly equal.

Kurt
 

Kevin W.

NAWCC Member
Apr 11, 2002
22,979
500
113
63
Nepean, Ontario, Canada
Country
Region
No problem Drw, i realize there are different languages and people all over the world post on here.
 

whatgoesaround

Registered User
Jan 22, 2008
515
36
28
south carolina
Country
Region
1613937226115.png Look for the part of the motion works that resembles the diagram. As b drops off of the tooth on a, note how far the pendulum continues to rotate. Then the pendulum will rotate back and the other b will then let the tooth advance from a on its side. Again note how far the rotation of the pendulum continues in the other direction. You want the distance of the rotation on each side to equal. You accomplish this by moving the saddle at the very top. the saddle is the uppermost part with the pin going through it holding your suspension unit.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DrW

DrW

Registered User
Feb 1, 2021
55
3
8
46
Country
I'm not sure you should have done that. Typically, the "adjustment" you refer to is made by viewing the clock from the back and moving the bracket that supports the saddle for the suspension spring. The two screws holding it onto the back plate are loosened which lets the bracket float. The bracket is used to adjust the locks and drops while viewing the action of the teeth on the pallets. When a tooth falls off the pallet, the distance between the tooth and the pallet is called the drop. When a tooth falls onto a pallet, the amount of the tooth that lands on the pallet is called the lock. The locks and drops should be nearly equal.

Kurt
I do not see the adjusting screws on the back plate that can lower the axle of saddle with teeth. The design by which the suspension spring is attached to the back plate in my clock has specific screw holes, with no height adjustment. Probably in my clock model, the specified adjustment is carried out in the way that I described ...
 

Kevin W.

NAWCC Member
Apr 11, 2002
22,979
500
113
63
Nepean, Ontario, Canada
Country
Region
Dr W, nothing to be sorry about. I am glad you are on this mb asking questions.
 

DrW

Registered User
Feb 1, 2021
55
3
8
46
Country
View attachment 639604 Look for the part of the motion works that resembles the diagram. As b drops off of the tooth on a, note how far the pendulum continues to rotate. Then the pendulum will rotate back and the other b will then let the tooth advance from a on its side. Again note how far the rotation of the pendulum continues in the other direction. You want the distance of the rotation on each side to equal. You accomplish this by moving the saddle at the very top. the saddle is the uppermost part with the pin going through it holding your suspension unit.
I don't feel like I understand the terminology. We need a complete diagram of this device with names so that I can understand you.
1 - an adjusting disc on the front plate, on which there is the first hole for the axis of the block (saddle?), during the rotation of which the hole and, accordingly, the axle of the block (saddle?) is lowered or raised in relation to the wheel (5); 2 - block (saddle?) with an axle, which is connected to the fork with the help of a perpendicular axle; 3 - a fork, which is fastened with 2 screws on a suspension spring and the perpendicular axis of the block (saddle?) is placed between its two teeth; 4 - additional plate in which is a second hole for the axle of the block (saddle?) is located and to which a suspension spring is attached, which is attached to the back main plate of the clock; 5 - wheel under the block(saddle?); 6 - screw holes on the back plate without height adjustment.

koma4-2.jpg koma5.JPG koma6.JPG koma7.JPG koma8.JPG
 

DrW

Registered User
Feb 1, 2021
55
3
8
46
Country
View attachment 639604 Look for the part of the motion works that resembles the diagram. As b drops off of the tooth on a, note how far the pendulum continues to rotate. Then the pendulum will rotate back and the other b will then let the tooth advance from a on its side. Again note how far the rotation of the pendulum continues in the other direction. You want the distance of the rotation on each side to equal. You accomplish this by moving the saddle at the very top. the saddle is the uppermost part with the pin going through it holding your suspension unit.
When start clock from twisting pendulum 360 degrees counterclockwise the wheel under the block is locked by one of the teeth "b", the wheel is locked by another tooth "b" when untwisting by 1 + 3/4 circle (360 + 270 deg.) or more upto 2 circle , and the return to the first lock position occurs in 1/2 circle (180 deg.) or less ...
 

Wayne A

NAWCC Member
Sep 24, 2019
574
90
28
Country
Region
1 an eccentric used to adjust pallet drops. Adjustment often not required.
2 dead beat Anchor. Anchor contacts the escape wheel with its two adjustable pallets often no adjustment required. Wire on end is called the pin.
3 its a fork
4 suspension bracket with saddle. Suspension spring is hung from adjustable saddle which rotating adjusts the "beat"
5 escape wheel
6 Just mounting for suspension bracket

Wayne
 
  • Like
Reactions: DrW

DrW

Registered User
Feb 1, 2021
55
3
8
46
Country
1 an eccentric used to adjust pallet drops. Adjustment often not required.
2 dead beat Anchor. Anchor contacts the escape wheel with its two adjustable pallets often no adjustment required. Wire on end is called the pin.
3 its a fork
4 suspension bracket with saddle. Suspension spring is hung from adjustable saddle which rotating adjusts the "beat"
5 escape wheel
6 Just mounting for suspension bracket

Wayne
Thank you.
Now I tune position of 1 with pliers & pallets length at 2 to get symmetrical displacement of the fork when viewed from above when turning pendulum 360 deg. in both directions. Moreover, this is achieved by rotating by pliers 1 until the desired fork displacement is achieved in both directions. If 5 slip or stick then I change the length of pallets at 2. Time of clock work has increased to 15 minutes...
 

whatgoesaround

Registered User
Jan 22, 2008
515
36
28
south carolina
Country
Region
Do not adjust 1. This will almost always be correct and will make things worse for you if you should adjust it; the only time this part needs adjusting is probably when someone has adjusted it incorrectly in the past.

Move your pendulum slowly while watching parts 2 and 5. When one of the pallets, b in my first diagram, is released, stop turning the pendulum. Let the pendulum go and watch to see if the other side b will release. If it does not then adjust the cylindrical shaped part on top of the saddle, part 4. You will probably need some pliers to do this; it is friction tight. It requires only a very tiny movement. Turn it very slightly in the direction of the one that released. When both release you are close enough to adjust it into beat. This will be done as I described above with my diagram. Move the cylindrical part at the top very slightly towards the side that has the most rotation of the pendulum after the tooth on 5 is released. Adjust until both sides are equal. I find it easier to have the least amount of movement past the movement of 5 to compare. When these are equal, it is in beat. You should be able to turn the pendulum so that the tooth on 5 is released and it will release the tooth on 5 in the other direction with the pendulum turning the same amount on both sides of the rotation. The clock will continue to run if this is all it needs, which I strongly suspect would be the case.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DrW

DrW

Registered User
Feb 1, 2021
55
3
8
46
Country
Do not adjust 1. This will almost always be correct and will make things worse for you if you should adjust it; the only time this part needs adjusting is probably when someone has adjusted it incorrectly in the past.

Move your pendulum slowly while watching parts 2 and 5. When one of the pallets, b in my first diagram, is released, stop turning the pendulum. Let the pendulum go and watch to see if the other side b will release. If it does not then adjust the cylindrical shaped part on top of the saddle, part 4. You will probably need some pliers to do this; it is friction tight. It requires only a very tiny movement. Turn it very slightly in the direction of the one that released. When both release you are close enough to adjust it into beat. This will be done as I described above with my diagram. Move the cylindrical part at the top very slightly towards the side that has the most rotation of the pendulum after the tooth on 5 is released. Adjust until both sides are equal. I find it easier to have the least amount of movement past the movement of 5 to compare. When these are equal, it is in beat. You should be able to turn the pendulum so that the tooth on 5 is released and it will release the tooth on 5 in the other direction with the pendulum turning the same amount on both sides of the rotation. The clock will continue to run if this is all it needs, which I strongly suspect would be the case.
Thank you.
I replaced the suspension spring again, because while readjusting the fork I apparently tightened the mounting screws too much and flattened the spring in some places. After it replacement, it was possible to achieve a more even movement of the fork in both directions. The clock work time after the initial spin of the pendulum by 360 degrees in one directions (full range 720 deg.) increased to 30-35 minutes at the maximum winding of the mainspring, the residual rotation of the pendulum (full range 270 deg. or less) continued for another 20 minutes after the hands stopped.
As I understand it, the problem is that I need to find an equilibrium state, i.e. the full range of pendulum rotation in which the "mainspring" can compensate the attenuation of the suspension spring rotations, and the range of adjustments is very small. And I have not yet achieve stable work of coupling mechanism of the main clockwork and the suspension pendulum mechanismat the full range of pendulum rotation less than 360 degrees, but the rotation of the pendulum attenuate farther.
But now, with your hint, I have a third adjustment, I will try again with its use ...
"Move your pendulum slowly while watching parts 2 and 5. When one of the pallets, b in my first diagram, is released, stop turning the pendulum. Let the pendulum go and watch to see if the other side b will release."
Yes, this is so, I stop the pendulum on the release of the wheel on one side, release the pendulum and the wheel is released on the other side of anchor. But I'm still playing with the 3rd setting (cylindrical part on top of the saddle), which you suggested to me, in order to get an even fork travel left and right.
Full range of pendulum rotation between this two release of wheel is about 180 deg. But after about 20 minutes the rotation becomes less than 180 degrees and the wheel stops release.
 
Last edited:

whatgoesaround

Registered User
Jan 22, 2008
515
36
28
south carolina
Country
Region
720 degrees is much too much; you could put a twist into your suspension spring. It will possibly not run, then. You will see a kink if this happens. Continue to watch the release of the pallet, b, and the rotation of the pendulum. If the rotation on one side is more than the other, turn the cylindrical part at the top slightly towards that side and continue this process until you get the left and right swings even. You do not have to wait for the pendulum to stop before you determine if it worked. Watch the drop and then rotation; as soon as you see they are not equal, stop the pendulum, make an adjustment, and see the results. Repeat until the rotations are equal. 270 degrees is a ballpark figure, when running it may be less or more. If you get this done and it still is not working, the next place to try would be your fork placement, but let's wait on that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DrW

DrW

Registered User
Feb 1, 2021
55
3
8
46
Country
720 degrees is much too much; you could put a twist into your suspension spring. It will possibly not run, then. You will see a kink if this happens. Continue to watch the release of the pallet, b, and the rotation of the pendulum. If the rotation on one side is more than the other, turn the cylindrical part at the top slightly towards that side and continue this process until you get the left and right swings even. You do not have to wait for the pendulum to stop before you determine if it worked. Watch the drop and then rotation; as soon as you see they are not equal, stop the pendulum, make an adjustment, and see the results. Repeat until the rotations are equal. 270 degrees is a ballpark figure, when running it may be less or more. If you get this done and it still is not working, the next place to try would be your fork placement, but let's wait on that.
Thank you.
I did not know only about the possibility of rotation of the cylindrical part to which the suspension spring is suspended. Before that I only adjusted the height of 2 with 1 and the length of the teeth of 2. it is obvious that in order for the wheel to push the teeth of 2, it must hit their bevels in a certain phase, otherwise, if the teeth of 2 are too short or the height of 2 is too large, then the wheel will, on the contrary, brake 2 hitting the teeth in the wrong phase ...
I also put the fork back in the position it had on the original spring.
The maximum running time of the watch remains from 15 to 25 minutes. I don't twist it to 720 degrees any more - it's useless, the rotations still fade, just longer.
While observing the pendulum, I noticed that it draws a circle on the "floor" with its lower thorn in the process of rotation, because in the installed position, according to marks put on it by someone with an indelible marker, it has a tilt of the axis (curve), the curvature is almost completely gone in the process of unscrewing the pendulum, while it has become longer and wider and practically does not draw a circle under it.
 

whatgoesaround

Registered User
Jan 22, 2008
515
36
28
south carolina
Country
Region
Adjusting the pallets on 2 can have major consequences and might be the reason you can not get it in beat. I am not sure I understand the circle on the floor, but if it is touching the base in even the slightest fashion, it will not run.
 

DrW

Registered User
Feb 1, 2021
55
3
8
46
Country
Adjusting the pallets on 2 can have major consequences and might be the reason you can not get it in beat. I am not sure I understand the circle on the floor, but if it is touching the base in even the slightest fashion, it will not run.
It’s not a big deal - the clock was already out of beat before replacing of the suspension spring and making any adjustments. The sharp base of the pendulum drew a circle on the clock base underneath because pendulum vertical axis was curved, i.e. when rotating, this axis drew a circle with its lower end, and did not remain in place, as it would be if this axis would be ideally vertical. I think this can also create an additional problem.
Now, thanks to the turns of the cylindrical top of the suspension spring attachment, I achieve a "beat" in the 180 degrees range of the pendulum turning. But the turns still attenuate to zero, in the previously indicated range - up to half an hour of the turn of the arrows when starting from 360 degrees twist in total in both directions, and then residual turns less than 180 degrees for another 20 minutes.
I already realized that most likely this clock will not work again properly. Their mechanism is too complex and therefore unreliable.
And I did everything I could. Some things cannot be fixed.
Thank you all for the helpful comments, for your time.
 

Burkhard Rasch

NAWCC Member
Jun 1, 2007
4,910
197
63
64
Twistringen
Country
Region
"And I did everything I could. Some things cannot be fixed.
Thank you all for the helpful comments, for your time."

OK, I don´t want to force You. But otoh : what is it? a set of 4 wheels, not too complex to understand! not witchcraft
Believe me we all have been at that point!:banghead:
Put the clock away and start a bit of systematic reading: get a copy of Charles Terwilliger´s 400 Day Clock Repair Guide and read the chapter about the escapement. And then go back and start again systematicly.
The feeling when You´ve won is worth the efford!
Best regards
Burkhard
 

KurtinSA

NAWCC Member
Nov 24, 2014
4,165
220
63
San Antonio, TX
Country
Region
I'm not sure if I read it or not...but have you taken the clock completely apart to service the pivots, the holes, as well as the main spring? It sounds like there is insufficient power getting to the escape wheel and thus to the fork. Is it possible to take a short video, say 30 seconds of the escapement with light shining on it and upload that to the web, maybe youtube? I think we'd get a better understanding of the situation if we could see what is going on.

Thanks...Kurt
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wayne A

whatgoesaround

Registered User
Jan 22, 2008
515
36
28
south carolina
Country
Region
Do not give up. I did not mean that all was lost if you adjusted the pallets, it can still be fixed, just a little harder. We have all had our moments of feeling defeated. It only makes the joy that much greater when you overcome it. Kurt's idea of a video is a great idea. A shot where we can watch the escapement (b and a) and if we could also see the pendulum at the same time would be very helpful.
 

DrW

Registered User
Feb 1, 2021
55
3
8
46
Country
"And I did everything I could. Some things cannot be fixed.
Thank you all for the helpful comments, for your time."

OK, I don´t want to force You. But otoh : what is it? a set of 4 wheels, not too complex to understand! not witchcraft
Believe me we all have been at that point!:banghead:
Put the clock away and start a bit of systematic reading: get a copy of Charles Terwilliger´s 400 Day Clock Repair Guide and read the chapter about the escapement. And then go back and start again systematicly.
The feeling when You´ve won is worth the efford!
Best regards
Burkhard
Thank you!
 

DrW

Registered User
Feb 1, 2021
55
3
8
46
Country
I'm not sure if I read it or not...but have you taken the clock completely apart to service the pivots, the holes, as well as the main spring? It sounds like there is insufficient power getting to the escape wheel and thus to the fork. Is it possible to take a short video, say 30 seconds of the escapement with light shining on it and upload that to the web, maybe youtube? I think we'd get a better understanding of the situation if we could see what is going on.

Thanks...Kurt
Thank you!
" It sounds like there is insufficient power getting to the escape wheel and thus to the fork. "
And I think so.
I disassembled the watch completely, cleaned it, the mainspring was replaced with a new one. In the process of careful observation, I noticed that the part of the axis on which the clock hands are is also curve, when it rotates, it drew a circle - not stay on the line of axis.
I assume that this watch is probably a replica and not made of very high quality parts.
I think so because, among other things, their base is made of plastic with golden-like cover, the clock-face is made of stainless steel covered by golden-like lacquer.
"Is it possible to take a short video, say 30 seconds of the escapement with light shining on it and upload that to the web, maybe youtube?"
I'll try
 

DrW

Registered User
Feb 1, 2021
55
3
8
46
Country
Do not give up. I did not mean that all was lost if you adjusted the pallets, it can still be fixed, just a little harder. We have all had our moments of feeling defeated. It only makes the joy that much greater when you overcome it. Kurt's idea of a video is a great idea. A shot where we can watch the escapement (b and a) and if we could also see the pendulum at the same time would be very helpful.
Thank you.
I'll try.
 

KurtinSA

NAWCC Member
Nov 24, 2014
4,165
220
63
San Antonio, TX
Country
Region
Well that was helpful! Thanks! Two things I noticed. The first and mostly likely the loss of a lot of power is the gap the fork tines has around the anchor pin. Your gap is way too big. It needs to be the thickness of a regular piece of paper. You would typically remove the suspension unit from the clock and lay the unit down on your work bench. You can probably just squeeze the ends of the tines with your thumb and finger. Try a few test fits.

The second thing is the escape wheel doesn't move with gusto once it drops off a pallet. Lots of power and little friction would show the escape wheel moving smartly. So, maybe there's something there.

If there is another vantage point you could use for another video, could you try shoot through the back plate where the pallets and escape wheel teeth are visible? That would be the next area for examination.

Thanks again! Kurt
 

DrW

Registered User
Feb 1, 2021
55
3
8
46
Country
Well that was helpful! Thanks! Two things I noticed. The first and mostly likely the loss of a lot of power is the gap the fork tines has around the anchor pin. Your gap is way too big. It needs to be the thickness of a regular piece of paper. You would typically remove the suspension unit from the clock and lay the unit down on your work bench. You can probably just squeeze the ends of the tines with your thumb and finger. Try a few test fits.

The second thing is the escape wheel doesn't move with gusto once it drops off a pallet. Lots of power and little friction would show the escape wheel moving smartly. So, maybe there's something there.

If there is another vantage point you could use for another video, could you try shoot through the back plate where the pallets and escape wheel teeth are visible? That would be the next area for examination.

Thanks again! Kurt
Thank you.
1) The teeth of the fork have the orientation of the sides of the triangle with the base facing upwards, therefore, when viewed from above, the distance between them is greater, and decreases downward (see attachment).
2) I watched this process from a different angle - from the side (not from above) and although it is difficult to see (the back plate interferes). A small initial movement of the wheel at the beginning of the release is limited by the tooth on the other side of 2, so when wheel jumps off one tooth of 2 it's immediately inhibited by the tooth on the other side of 2, as tooth on other side of 2 further descends between the teeth of the wheel, an additional movement of the wheel occurs, all this, as far as I understand, is determined by the shape of the teeth on 2 and the wheel, and they have their own bevels, which determines the movement of the wheel. Thus, first 2 pushes the wheel, and then the wheel pushes the 2 - because of bevels on the teeth.
3) I'll try

koma9.JPG
 

KurtinSA

NAWCC Member
Nov 24, 2014
4,165
220
63
San Antonio, TX
Country
Region
I understand that the fork has a "V" shape...I wasn't really looking at that. I watched the anchor pin during the process. I could see how much it was moving independent of the fork tines. Where the "V" shape narrows down to the narrowest...that is what controls how much the anchor can move. In the first video right near the end around 1:09 or 1:10, you can physically see the gap between the anchor pin and the fork. The extra distance eats up power.

Kurt
 

whatgoesaround

Registered User
Jan 22, 2008
515
36
28
south carolina
Country
Region
I was thinking about the pallet movement before I opened the forum today and if you were able to adjust the beat without problems, the pallets can't be that far off. So don't lose heart on that.

I agree with Kurt on the fork. The paper thickness, like an index card, should be the amount when it is furthest before release. It must have enough to "kick back," but anymore is a loss of power.
 

DrW

Registered User
Feb 1, 2021
55
3
8
46
Country
I understand that the fork has a "V" shape...I wasn't really looking at that. I watched the anchor pin during the process. I could see how much it was moving independent of the fork tines. Where the "V" shape narrows down to the narrowest...that is what controls how much the anchor can move. In the first video right near the end around 1:09 or 1:10, you can physically see the gap between the anchor pin and the fork. The extra distance eats up power.

Kurt
Thank you.
I think that this is the reflection of the kick from the wheel. I am afraid to compress this detail by pliers, because it is looks like a cast type of complex shape with stiffeners, it can break apart and I'll need to buy a new suspension spring in full assembly...
 

DrW

Registered User
Feb 1, 2021
55
3
8
46
Country
I was thinking about the pallet movement before I opened the forum today and if you were able to adjust the beat without problems, the pallets can't be that far off. So don't lose heart on that.

I agree with Kurt on the fork. The paper thickness, like an index card, should be the amount when it is furthest before release. It must have enough to "kick back," but anymore is a loss of power.
Thank you.
Okay, I'll think about fork compression ...
 

KurtinSA

NAWCC Member
Nov 24, 2014
4,165
220
63
San Antonio, TX
Country
Region
I think that this is the reflection of the kick from the wheel. I am afraid to compress this detail by pliers, because it is looks like a cast type of complex shape with stiffeners, it can break apart and I'll need to buy a new suspension spring in full assembly...
Of course, I'm half a world away looking at a video. But it sure seems like you have way too much kick back of the anchor pin. That costs power. Those forks are easily bent in my opinion...I've hand to squeeze many of them over my short time working on these clocks.

Kurt
 

Wayne A

NAWCC Member
Sep 24, 2019
574
90
28
Country
Region
Those links worked for me. Yes definitely there is excessive play in the fork to pin. Also check that there is not a worn notch in the fork.

Watching the escapment action it looks like it should work where its currently at.
 

DrW

Registered User
Feb 1, 2021
55
3
8
46
Country
Fork compression is not an option. With minimal fork compression, the pin began to enter the fork with effort, and the fork stopped moving altogether.
I've return the fork to previous shape ...
 

DrW

Registered User
Feb 1, 2021
55
3
8
46
Country
Those links worked for me. Yes definitely there is excessive play in the fork to pin. Also check that there is not a worn notch in the fork.

Watching the escapment action it looks like it should work where its currently at.
Thank you
 

DrW

Registered User
Feb 1, 2021
55
3
8
46
Country
I am considering about to spray this clock with "miracle" WD-40. :)
 

Wayne A

NAWCC Member
Sep 24, 2019
574
90
28
Country
Region
I am considering about to spray this clock with "miracle" WD-40. :)
Fork compression is not an option. With minimal fork compression, the pin began to enter the fork with effort, and the fork stopped moving altogether.
I've return the fork to previous shape ...
Check it for notches in the fork. Also this is a fine adjustment you only need a small clearance, the thickness of a sheet of paper or less.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
163,705
Messages
1,422,672
Members
85,062
Latest member
dwmacke
Encyclopedia Pages
1,101
Total wiki contributions
2,861
Last edit
Bread Upon the Waters by Tom McIntyre