Repairing a 1920s Gilbert Mantle Clock

[mwomack]

I was able to dismantle the clock (after figuring out how to remove the hour hand...), and I successfully removed the actual clock mechanism. And there are a few things wrong that I noticed before going further with disassembly. Before jumping in to that, I just want to say that I am a complete newbie in clock repair. I don't know all the right nomenclature, part names, and what not beyond watching two YouTube videos. Always had an interest, didn't have a clock to focus on. So, please be gentle. If there is a book that focuses on Gilbert repair, I would love to hear about it.

1) It looks like the speed of the pendulum is controlled/set via a small gear, and the entire mechanism is bent so that a matching gear (which would control the height of the pendulum arm?) doesn't even make contact. The screw that the second gear would move up and down is so bent I don't think it can be salvaged. I don't know if I can even get it out. There must have been a lot of blunt force applied to get it that bent.


2) There is some very fine wire that is wrapped around several posts. I don't think that is original, I think someone added it later to fix something. I'm not exactly sure what it is trying to fix...


3) ...but it might be related to the fact that when the clock starts striking, it just never stops. Looking at the mechanism, I see the hour gear, and the arm that should go into the larger slot and stop chiming. But there doesn't seem to be a limiter or control on that arm to stop it from coming back up and chiming the next hour. Also, there is a different gear that looks like it should catch, but doesn't? I've included some pictures. I feel like there is a free arm that should be on top of the hour arm. But not being familiar enough, I'm not sure.


4) And finally, the pivots for the gears seem great. They don't move around at all...except for the one that is connected to the post the hands attach to. That one has a fair amount of give. Is that something I should worry about or is it normal?


Wow. That seems like a lot, but I just wanted to get this out there in case there is some advice/knowledge on the state of this old Gilbert. My next steps are to disassemble the actual mechanism, get it cleaned up, repaired, and then reassembled. But...

1) What cleaning solution(s) and steps should I use?
2) The springs will need to be dealt with. They are not broken, fortunately, but I know there is some special way to get them out without they breaking my wrist?

Thank you in advance for any help.

If you've read this far, some info on this clock: I rescued it from my neighbor's trash from his cleaning out his garage before selling his house. I don't know much of it's specific history, but given what I could find out, it looks to be a Gilbert mantle clock from the 1920s. The art deco clock face kind of gives it away. I decided to give clock repair a try as I have always been interested. This clock seemed to be in decent enough shape that it would be a good starter project. I guess I will find out.

-Mark

 

[Willie X]

It's not a great clock to start on but if you are persistent and have some mechanical aptitude, you should be fine.

The very first thing would be to take good close-up photos and make (or buy) a good let-down tool. The springs MUST be completely let down into a retainer, or a loop of heavy soft iron wire (tie wire), before disassembly.

The fine brass wires are 'helper wires' and original to the clock. They make the striking function more dependably.

The rate adjuster will need to be replaced, or you can probably straighten up the old one, enough to serve as a hanger, and rate your clock with an adjustable pendulum bob.

Good luck and welcome to the MB, Willie X

 

[wow]

Mark, welcome to the forum. You are right about the rate adjuster having a bent shaft (arbor). It is really bent badly. Probably not straightenable (word?). Those adjusters are not available at any suppliers that I know of. The little brass spring wires are supposed to be there as tensioner springs for the strike levers. Before you begin, you should search the message board for info on how to let down mainsprings. Bangster, one of our members, has posted many how to do it articles in the sticky’s at the beginning of the clock repair section. Read those first and then let us help you. You must remove the power on both mainsprings before beginning or you may get injured. Good luck. You have come to the right place.
Will

 

[R. Croswell]

I was able to dismantle the clock (after figuring out how to remove the hour hand...), and I successfully removed the actual clock mechanism. And there are a few things wrong that I noticed before going further with disassembly. Before jumping in to that, I just want to say that I am a complete newbie in clock repair. I don't know all the right nomenclature, part names, and what not beyond watching two YouTube videos. Always had an interest, didn't have a clock to focus on. So, please be gentle. If there is a book that focuses on Gilbert repair, I would love to hear about it.

1) It looks like the speed of the pendulum is controlled/set via a small gear, and the entire mechanism is bent so that a matching gear (which would control the height of the pendulum arm?) doesn't even make contact. The screw that the second gear would move up and down is so bent I don't think it can be salvaged. I don't know if I can even get it out. There must have been a lot of blunt force applied to get it that bent.


2) There is some very fine wire that is wrapped around several posts. I don't think that is original, I think someone added it later to fix something. I'm not exactly sure what it is trying to fix...


3) ...but it might be related to the fact that when the clock starts striking, it just never stops. Looking at the mechanism, I see the hour gear, and the arm that should go into the larger slot and stop chiming. But there doesn't seem to be a limiter or control on that arm to stop it from coming back up and chiming the next hour. Also, there is a different gear that looks like it should catch, but doesn't? I've included some pictures. I feel like there is a free arm that should be on top of the hour arm. But not being familiar enough, I'm not sure.


4) And finally, the pivots for the gears seem great. They don't move around at all...except for the one that is connected to the post the hands attach to. That one has a fair amount of give. Is that something I should worry about or is it normal?


Wow. That seems like a lot, but I just wanted to get this out there in case there is some advice/knowledge on the state of this old Gilbert. My next steps are to disassemble the actual mechanism, get it cleaned up, repaired, and then reassembled. But...

1) What cleaning solution(s) and steps should I use?
2) The springs will need to be dealt with. They are not broken, fortunately, but I know there is some special way to get them out without they breaking my wrist?

Thank you in advance for any help.

If you've read this far, some info on this clock: I rescued it from my neighbor's trash from his cleaning out his garage before selling his house. I don't know much of it's specific history, but given what I could find out, it looks to be a Gilbert mantle clock from the 1920s. The art deco clock face kind of gives it away. I decided to give clock repair a try as I have always been interested. This clock seemed to be in decent enough shape that it would be a good starter project. I guess I will find out.

-Mark

Mark, in addition to the good advice already given, I'll add this.

I would try to straighten the bent rate adjuster. Either it will work, or you can leave it in place and use an adjustable pendulum as suggested.

As for the lose center shaft or hour pipe, that's pretty common on clocks like this and won't interfere with the clock running. It's an annoyance but really fixing it is quite involved for a beginner.

There are a number of good clock repair books and I suggest doing some reading before starting. In my opinion, there is as much bad information on you tube as there is good, and as a beginner, you are probably not equipped to tell the difference. Steven Conover's book "Clock Repair Basics" is a good one and it features a Gilbert similar to yours.

You cannot evaluate the condition of the pivots while the springs are delivering power - they will all appear to be tight. Once the mainsprings are restrained with tie wire (recommend #16 rebar tie wire for this one), or "C" clips as shown in this picture, you will be able wiggle the main wheels back and forth and observe the pivots dancing around in any badly worn pivot holes, but with the dirt and crud in the pivot holes, this will not be an accurate assessment. Also, you cannot evaluate the surface of the pivot while it is in the hole.

Regarding the run-on strike, As dirty as this movement is, you may have difficulty discovering the problem. (See the picture below) Briefly, this is how it is supposed to work. As the minute hand approaches "12" the warning lever moves into position to arrest the stop pin. At some point the maintenance cam lifts the stop lever away from the stop pin and the stop wheel turns a partial turn (the warning run). Then at "12" the warning lever suddenly drops clear and striking begins. After each strike the count lever blade drops onto the slotted count wheel. When the count blade drops into one of the slots, the stop lever moves into position and arrests the stop pin and striking stops.
It looks like this one hasn't been apart, so for now, assume that all the gears are correctly timed to one another (this is typically the problem when the strike doesn't stop after incorrect assembly). Apply power by hand while watching the action of the levers. With the count lever blade bottomed in a slot, look for why the stop lever isn't arresting the stop pin. Don't bend or adjust anything until you ask and are sure if you are doing the right thing. It may be that wear is the problem and a bushing installation may be needed, or it may be that someone has messed with it or damaged something.

RC

 

[mwomack]

Thank you to everyone for the welcome and the thoughtful advice. I feel like I've learned a bunch just from the replies. For now I think I will just wait for the book suggested by RC and after reading then go from there. I'll be back...

-Mark

 

[shutterbug]

One area you MUST always look at with Gilbert's is the center shaft pinion. They are often cracked. If it is, the symptom is that the minute hand moves very easily by hand. You can get new pinions but they always need to be reamed larger. They need to be tight, but not so tight that they crack again.

 

[R. Croswell]

One area you MUST always look at with Gilbert's is the center shaft pinion. They are often cracked. If it is, the symptom is that the minute hand moves very easily by hand. You can get new pinions but they always need to be reamed larger. They need to be tight, but not so tight that they crack again.

Quite true, one of the first things to check on a Gilbert, but the same advice applies to E. Ingraham models. I guess I replace about two cracked pinions in Ingrahams for every one in a Gilbert. The big difference is that new replacements are only available for Gilberts. Also seen this in a Big Ben alarm clock. It is good advice to check whatever the make and model.

RC

 

[mwomack]

OK. I got my C spring clips, I got my turn down key (#6 for this Gilbert). I removed the pendulum arm (will look at repairing that screw later...) and the chime arms. I followed the directions in the Conover book to let down the springs into the C clips. The C clips appear to be holding the springs tightly, and I made sure they were in the middle of the spring. I did this for both the strike and time springs.


I just wanted to stop there and make sure there isn't something that I am missing in regards to retaining the springs.

Taking the plates apart at this point seems straight forward. I'll loosen the bolts and also loosen these screws that are holding the winding posts in place. There is one on the front and back for each post.


I'm not sure about this strike wheel (as it turns it raises the strike arms). Will this assembly need to come off before the plates can separate?


I was going to read ahead in the Conover book (which is excellent, thank you for that recommendation) before taking it apart further. I want to have some idea of what I am looking at so I can properly label in my pictures, etc. I have been taking many, many pictures.

-Mark

 

[Willie X]

The little round head screws hold the winding arbor retainers in place. Originally the clock had clip on mainspring ends. Removing these screws would allow the main springs to be replaced without disassembling the movement. Willie X

 

[R. Croswell]

OK. I got my C spring clips, I got my turn down key (#6 for this Gilbert). I removed the pendulum arm (will look at repairing that screw later...) and the chime arms. I followed the directions in the Conover book to let down the springs into the C clips. The C clips appear to be holding the springs tightly, and I made sure they were in the middle of the spring. I did this for both the strike and time springs.


-Mark

Make sure you remove the little half-hour lever on the end of the minute hand at the center of the back plate. Just pry up evenly on both sides. Make sure the springs are completely let down. You should be able to rock both main wheels back and forth and they should feel loose.

You should be able to see the disadvantage of the big spring clips, note that the clip is pressing against the second wheel arbor. Now when you get the springs and main wheels out you will be faced with the problem of how to get the springs out of the clamps for cleaning. These are best used if you have a spring winder to extract them and rewind them. If you had used tie wire you could simply snip the wire. Rewinding without a spring winder is tricky but you can do it by putting back just the 2nd wheel and main wheel (with the spring connected), tie the 2nd wheel so it can't move, wind the spring and tie it or install the clamp. Remove and do the other wheel, then put everything back together........ or buy or make a spring winder.

RC

 

[Willie X]

Be sure to permanently mark the time spring and wheel. They may interchange and they may not. Willie X

 

[shutterbug]

I would also recommend looking closely at how much 'tail' you have on the springs. When you wind them back up, you'll want about the same amount of tail, or it will complicate the re-assembly.