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Repair Guide Supplement

etmb61

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The 10th edition of the Horolovar 400 Day Clock Repair Guide was published in 1991. It was only a minor update to the previous guide published in 1984. Since it’s 1991 release, independent research has uncovered a wealth of information about the early 400 day clock industry and discovered a great number of inaccuracies and omissions in the guide. Now as 2021 approaches, with the bulk of the historical and identification information contained in the guide now over 36 years out of date, it is past time for a major revision. But let's face it, a revised repair guide is not likely to happen any time soon. It's been discussed on this board since 2001. Now with the death of Chris Nimon and the fate of Horolovar unknown we may never see one.

I've been thinking that it would be beneficial to the 400 day clock community to compile the known corrections for errors in the 10th edition of the repair guide along with some "important" additional information into some form of single supplement.

Do you think this would be useful, and how would you like to see it?

Thoughts?

Eric
 

whatgoesaround

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Was John Hubby thinking of publishing a new update with Chris Nimon at one time? Seems like there was talk of it here and it seems that the idea of two volumes was being floated. I was kind of hoping that is why we have not heard from Mr. Hubby in awhile; that he is hard at work on it.

If that is not the case, I would love to see this supplement. I am pretty sure that there are many out there, yourself for one, Eric, who have recorded most of this information and to have it in one place would be great. I guess the place to start would be all the plates that are misidentified, new versions found, dates, etc.
 

KurtinSA

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I would like to see a new edition. I'm not sure John is that active...he has moved out of the country and probably has filled his life with other things...or not! Anyway, I've marked up my version as things have been pointed out...not a complete markup for sure, but it's something that can be compared to other note-takers. If there's something I can do, let me know.

Kurt
 

etmb61

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My initial idea was an errata sheet like this one that was included with my 8th edition:
8th ed errata.jpg

For now I'm covering just the blue pages; Sections 9, 13, and 15. Those are where most of the markups are in my copy. I doubt my info is anywhere near complete so I'll create a .pdf document and post it here so y'all can review it.

Eric
 
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sjaffe

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There is actually quite a bit of history behind this. The 400 Day NAWCC chapter newsletter had articles that implied they were preparing this quite some time ago (maybe ten years?). But eventually I think John wrote that it was a very big job and it kept getting put off. Never did happen. I think someone needs to take this on. It would be a big job: accumulate all the corrections, confirm each, typeset the entire book, find a publisher, deal with the copyright... it's a big job. But I would like to have an updated version. I was trying to include the relevant corrections in mine, but since it was lost in the fire I'll be starting over again with that (as with most everything else clock related).

Stan
 

Schatznut

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Maybe as a tribute to Chris we should pool our information and see if it is sufficient and accurate enough to publish at least a set of errata. There's no point in reproducing the accurate data - the vast majority. I've stumbled into things particularly regarding the Badische Uhrenfabrik data that may be valuable to others, for example. And I've run into cases where the recommended suspension spring size was way off. One of the things I would like to see is pendulum weights associated with the various movements. If everyone weighed their pendulums and associated those weights with plate numbers and suspension spring sizes, that would be a tremendous help when one of us buys that cool clock without a pendulum or a suspension and is left guessing as to what the right combination is. That kind of data could be assembled in a spreadsheet fairly easily, I would think.
 

sjaffe

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Does the Message Board support a common document that multiple users can contribute to (or equivalent)? We don't need to publish a new version of the guide, we can just have a user contributed (open source style like Linux) errata sheet that applies to the latest version as was previously suggested. This seems very doable and if someone lists something incorrect, it can be corrected or discussed amongst group members. It also distributes the work and removes the burden on a single individual.

Stan
 

etmb61

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My first goal is to correct what we have. Publishing a new volume at this stage is a large undertaking with little return. I'm willing to spend my time assembling the information for an errata supplement offline on using some collaborative method online. Whatever works. To get started, here are the markups I have in Section 9 of my repair guide. It's mostly the maker identified at the top left and a few dates. John said it would best to have a date range for most plates. I agree but have very little of that information.

Eric
 

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shutterbug

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John was married recently and hasn't been too regular on the board. But there's a wealth of information that he has supplied here over the years. My repair guide is full of notes, like I'm sure many are.
Eric - it's a nice thing you are attempting to do. A compilation of Johns adjustments over the years would surely be helpful to many!
 
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MuseChaser

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You folks are wonderful. As a VERY newcomer to this world, maybe even less than a month ago, the Terwilliger book and this site (especially a particular few very helpful people) have given me the encouragement and entry-level knowledge to repair and restore seven of the nine 400-day clocks I have to excellent running and very good cosmetic condition. This from someone who has never dabbled in clocks AT ALL previously. It's almost miraculous to me what that book has enabled me to do.

I'd like to help, as even with my small collection and experience, I've found a few things that aren't exactly as found in the book; some of my plates aren't perfect matches, some of the fork locations in the suspension unit diagrams seem to be a bit too high for one or two of the clocks to run properly, etc. I'd like to contribute, but my fear is that I (and other neophytes) might be creating more work for Eric by inadvertently submitting erroneous errata, i.e., the fork height on my clock may need to be lower not because the book is incorrect, , but rather that some other adjustment on my clock is off that I'm too inexperienced to realize and that the lower fork setting made up for it... stuff like that. I would be happy to submit pics of the few plates I have that aren't perfect matches, along with pendulum weights (including weights of individual lead liners), or anything else that might be helpful.

With gratitude..

Barry
 
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etmb61

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Not all of the new information came from John.
 

KurtinSA

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Barry -

I think the fork position is a big variable. I use the guide as a starting point and go from there. I often have to adjust lower. Unless there is a huge error, I think the guide drawings for the forks are OK as is.

Kurt
 

whatgoesaround

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Your pdf. was great. I had some of these, but was not diligent in keeping it up. Thanks, Eric. My tiny contribution would be that I see I have corrected the main spring from 19 X 36 to 19 X 38 on plates 1505 and 1529. A reference to pendulums that go with plates would be nice, but I imagine that would be a massive undertaking. At least, the addition of missing pendulums.
 
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etmb61

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Thanks! I think the mainspring sizes for the other Schlenker & Posner plates are correct. The pendulum is #37. There was also a disk pendulum available but I've never seen it outside of the sales literature. I guess the guide would be a more useful reference it the pendulum number was with each plate. Easy enough to do.

The appendix reference for all the SuP plates is also wrong as there is no entry.

Does anyone know what the proper suspension spring size is? There are 3 listed along with Unit 1, all wrong!

Eric
 

KurtinSA

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I have three SuP clocks, one Lourve with disk pendulum (ca mid 1930s) and two with 4-ball pendulums (ca 1929). I can't say if the disk pendulum is original to the clock...it weighs 13.2 oz. The other 4-ball pendulums weigh 9.8/9.9 oz. I suspect the suspension spring thickness is different for these clocks.

Kurt
 

etmb61

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The correct Horolovar spring for use with pend 37 is .0035" (.089mm).

Eric
 

shutterbug

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Not all of the new information came from John.
Yeah. Sorry to imply that they did. He sure compiled a lot of data over the years though :)
 

Bod

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Thanks, copy taken, will mark up my copy.
Comfirms the P Hauck identification.

Bod
 
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KurtinSA

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Eric -

We need to mine the TorsionTimes for some updates, as well as proposed new plates. On occasion, a plate in the style shown in the guide is printed. When I ran across some info, I marked up my copy of the guide.

Kurt
 

shutterbug

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Thanks Eric! Great stuff!
 
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etmb61

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New info!

Plates 1384 and 1663, Huber, were used by Kienzle with the non-adjustable pendulum #32. The two screw holes to the right of the plate's centers are for the special suspension guard that slid down to capture the adjustable bottom block shown in appendix 96.

Page 125, Plate 1384, ADD: Appendix 96.

Page 175, Plate 1717, DELETE: Appendix 96.

Page 196, Pend 32, CHANGE: 1717 to 1384 and 1663.

Page 212, Appendix 10, CHANGE: Badische to Huber, ADD: plate 1384. (I don't know if the statement in this appendix is even true, but now at least it identifies the right plates and maker.)

Page 231, Appendix 96 CHANGE: 1717 to 1384.

There will be more.

Eric
 
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etmb61

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KurtinSA

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Eric -

So, you're keeper of the flame?? I've gone through my Section 9 and created a DOCX file with my "suggestions". I'm not married to everything I've noted, although I typically only made notes when you, John, Mun, etc., offered some info...plus what I found in reading the TorsionTimes. And I can/have easily gotten things wrong! This is going to be a difficult vetting process. For example, the dates are probably pretty vague but possibly you or others have catalogs that can help with that...I know John did.

I will take a look at the other sections/appendices to add to what I have.

Kurt
 
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etmb61

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Kurt,

I would like to think "Lighter of the flame" rather than keeper. I don't know enough to catch all the mistakes so others will need to join in with what they've found. I've only started critically reading the repair guide after I started this project. I'm certainly willing to keep the page up to date.

If you're taking specific information that was published in the Torsion Times I'm sure that needs permission from those authors or Chapter 168 to add here. All of that information is copyrighted. I've tried to avoid that and keep to my own research and conversations, and what has been posted in this forum.

Eric
 
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KurtinSA

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Eric -

Well, I doubt there's anyway at this point that I can point to the source of the corrections I've made in my guide. But it's things like corrections to plate numbers, mentions of the Horolovar Collection, additional info on main spring sizes, etc. I didn't lift sentences or anything like that...just saw where an entry in the guide has been "overtaken by events" and made the pencil change. Not sure what I can do about it at this point.

But you do bring up the point of including all valid info to a next version of the guide. John, Frank, maybe Mun Chor Weng has proposed new plates for variations that we are now aware of. This is invaluable and I would hope we can find some way to accommodate their work and bring it to light for future reference.

Have you looked at the "Similar Threads" pane at the bottom of the screen? There's at least one past thread that has info that could be folded into the guide.

I'm basically done with my extraction of notes from my marked up copy. I didn't duplicate yours in what you've provided...while I had most of them anyway, there were an awful lot that I didn't even know about. Not sure what the process is to offering it up. Everybody's input probably should be kept separate and vetted that way. Maybe your desire is just to get as much as people have to offer in one spot, and then if/when we can move to the next step, some group of people would be needed to go through all suggestions and begin to coalesce it all into a single package.

Kurt
 

etmb61

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Kurt,

I can't say with 100% certainty where all my markups originated either. Some I discovered after I started this process. I have a lot that I still have not included on the update page.

It would probably be easiest if you send me your updates in a PM.

I was hoping the updated wiki page would suffice as the single package.

Eric
 

etmb61

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If I haven't made my purpose clear in my prior postings, I am soliciting inputs and advice from anyone here who has knowledge of errors in and corrections needed to the 10th ed. of the Horolovar 400 Day Clock Repair Guide. I am compiling the information on the wiki page shown in the link in post #29. If you have corrections or different information than what I have presented please let me know.

Thanks,
Eric
 
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