Refinishing job/need a new verge

Sammyt97

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Hi Everyone,

I need a little bit of help...but first, I just wanted to post the refinishing job I did on this New Haven Gingerbread clock. I found this in a thrift store painted and was horrifed. It took me a long time to fix up because I didn't want to disturb the integrity of the design and was fortune enough to be successful.
However I wasn't as successful in getting it up and running. I was pretty stupid and I broke the verge so I need to replace it. I counted the teeth on the escape wheel and it falls in the 30-39 teeth. I'm not 100% sure of which one to order from Time Savers. Any ideas? Help is much appreciated. I always get stuck when it comes to replacement parts.
Thanks,
Chris 79741.jpg 79742.jpg
 

Scottie-TX

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Is this a deadbeat verge or recoil? Mebbe a pixture of th' broked verge?
Is the escape wheel outside the plates or between the plates? Another pic mebbe?
 

shutterbug

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The anchor should span 8 to 10 teeth. A more accurate count would help, and if you could remove the movement and post a pic of the escapement it would be really helpful! (Just reiterating what Scottie said) :) By the way, thanks for removing that hideous paint job! Your restoration looks quite good! :)
 

Scottie-TX

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It does - it DOES! Looks great. Mebbe after we resolve this verge stuff you might share with us the processes you used for the transmogrification (Calvin and Hobbes) of your now beautiful case. We've done it. THAT was a LOT of work.
 

Brian Smith

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If money was no object, you could watch eBay for the exact same movement with a intact escapement setup. That way you will not have to jigger around with a new replacement verge to get it to fit. Then you could re-sell the just purchased movement back through eBay now loaded with the broken original verge and recoup some of your investment. Make sure you disclose the condition of the broken verge.
 

Scottie-TX

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Yeah, I know but money is an object and is always in short supply. 'sideswitch, seems ever' time I've done that, th' new verge no better or mebbe wurser than th' one I started wiff. Sheesh. Life jes' ain't fair.
 

Dave D

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At the end of Dave LaBounty's video on recoil escapement, he says he will probably do a video about verge replacement. Perhaps we can convince him that this a worthy video. I'd buy one. Any others? I have found his videos to be very good and quite practical.
Like others here, I get all confused looking at the assortment of verges in the catalog and would learn a lot watching Dave select and fit a new one. In his recoil escapement video, he made a new one, but he had an old one to match. What if the verge is missing?
Dave D
 

shutterbug

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Dave D;518138 said:
At the end of Dave LaBounty's video on recoil escapement, he says he will probably do a video about verge replacement. Perhaps we can convince him that this a worthy video. I'd buy one. Any others? I have found his videos to be very good and quite practical.
Like others here, I get all confused looking at the assortment of verges in the catalog and would learn a lot watching Dave select and fit a new one. In his recoil escapement video, he made a new one, but he had an old one to match. What if the verge is missing?
Dave D
I'd buy it too! I'm getting quite a collection :)
 

Sammyt97

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Hi Everyone,

Thank you so much for all your help and for the compliments on the clock case. The process wasn't easy, but thankfully I have lots of tools to help. The first thing I did was use a paint remover, non-toxic safe for wood. The two I use are Peel away (specifically for antique furniture) or Smart strip. I put that on the case and then using very detailed instruments (Old dental tools and very fine chisels) I scrapped the paint away from the detail. When I got the majority of it out, I then wiped it clean with a non toxic paint thinner to get the stickiness off. Thankfully most of it came off using the tools and remover. Then I did a very light sanding on the detail with a very fine grit (320 or above). For the sides and inside and door, I was able to use a detail sander to take off the paint. Once that was all done, I used a remnant removal to clean up the dust and fine particles and then stained and polyurethaned the clock. It definitely was a rewarding piece to do. Now, if only I could be as smart when it comes to fixing them internally. I took some photos and have posted them. Let me know if you can't see them. I appreciate the help a lot.

Thanks,
Chris
-> posts merged by system <-
Dave D;518138 said:
At the end of Dave LaBounty's video on recoil escapement, he says he will probably do a video about verge replacement. Perhaps we can convince him that this a worthy video. I'd buy one. Any others? I have found his videos to be very good and quite practical.
Like others here, I get all confused looking at the assortment of verges in the catalog and would learn a lot watching Dave select and fit a new one. In his recoil escapement video, he made a new one, but he had an old one to match. What if the verge is missing?
Dave D
I absolutely would buy one. I needs lots of help with replacement things. Does he have one on suspension rods? I have a Gilbert Hollywood clock that I bought and is missing the crutch, verge, and suspension rod/spring and I get so confused with length and how to buy them. I am a more hands on auditory learner so reading doesn't help me a whole lot, but I bet a video would. 79851.jpg 79852.jpg 79853.jpg
 

Dave D

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Chris,
I suggest you check out Dave LaBounty's website. I think it's clockclass.com
His video on American strike levers was a Godsend for me. I learned a lot from his video on pivot polishing too. In fact, all of them I bought were very well done and worth the money.
I don't think there is one about suspension springs. If you have a specific question, perhaps posting to the clock repair forum and I'll bet you'll get an answer.
Dave
 

Scottie-TX

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I'd choose Timesavers' 12500. It matches yours in config - crutch offset to entrance side and most apps. show use for 30 - 39 teeth. Yours looks like 36 or 37 - hard to count under the cocks.
Please know that it may not be ready to use. Often, minor adjustments of gap are necessary. Sometimes alterations to saddle or pin are necessary, etc. but at least it's a start and with help you can probably do this.
 

shutterbug

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Probably would need polished and hardened too :)
 

Tunderer

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You might check out Steven Conover's Book

" Clock Repair Basics "

You can get the book from Timesavers as Cat #15168
or from

http://www.clockmakersnewsletter.com/

In chapter 5 he details several types of escapements and shows how to make and adjust them. Could be a help for your other clock(s).

Timesavers part #12500 should get you going. You will need to adjust it for distance and polish it. If it is not hardened you will need to heat treat the pallet faces yourself and then re-polish them. leave the center and bends soft so you can adjust by bending if necessary. It is all detailed in the book with diagrams and text.

T
 

Kevin W.

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Is this newsletter offer for Canadians as well?
 

shutterbug

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Veritas;518843 said:
Is this newsletter offer for Canadians as well?
He's not doing the news letter any more, but you can purchase them in book form on his site.
 

Kevin W.

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Thanks Shutt i will have a look.I like his books.:)
 

Sammyt97

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Thank you everyone. I will definitely look into getting the book and the video. You have been a big help. I'm hoping not to have to get the crutch off Time Savers as I was in my favorite thrift store today and found another Gingerbread clock missing the key, the pendulum, and had the very top broken off. I figure if the crutch and the suspension rod match, I can get my clock up and running. We'll see. Then I can just sell off the rest of the parts. The whole movement is there, so that's good.
Thanks again and if I get it up and running I'll be sure to send a post.
Chris
 

Scottie-TX

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Now, for the cost of a pendulum, key, and timesaver verge you might could get BOTH of them running and enjoy the profit of selling the second, working!
Please post also if you can't get it running. Bet we can help.
 

Sammyt97

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Yeah, so clearly I am not intended to "attempt" clock repair. I've done it a handful of times with success, but this clock....well let's say stupidity rules. I broke the second crutch verge trying to adjust that one as well. I was right there with the adjustment....so stupid. I have a soldering gun I thought I would try but I'm going to guess not so much. So, now the clock sits on my mantle looking great but not running. I'm sticking to refinishing.

Speaking of which I have a new clock to refinish. It's an Ingraham black mantle clock. I will post photos later, got a good deal on it to fix it up I just need some thoughts on the finish. When I start it I know where to come to get some thoughts. I still plan on buying that video, but until I watch the pros, I'm going to let the pros get the clocks running after I restore them to their original beauty. Thanks again for all your help.
Chris
 

shutterbug

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Sammyt97;519514 said:
Speaking of which I have a new clock to refinish. It's an Ingraham black mantle clock. I will post photos later, got a good deal on it to fix it up I just need some thoughts on the finish. When I start it I know where to come to get some thoughts. I still plan on buying that video, but until I watch the pros, I'm going to let the pros get the clocks running after I restore them to their original beauty. Thanks again for all your help.
Chris
There's a great article in the new Bulletin. Covers different coatings and how to renew them. Your problem with the anchors is that you didn't test them for hardness (with a file), and didn't anneal the centers to allow manipulation. All part of the learning process, and not that expensive as far as lessons go ;)
 

Sammyt97

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Hi Scottie,

You'll do that? thank you so much. I'll pay for any parts you need. Thanks!

My email is Sammyt97@aol.com
-> posts merged by system <-
shutterbug;519533 said:
There's a great article in the new Bulletin. Covers different coatings and how to renew them. Your problem with the anchors is that you didn't test them for hardness (with a file), and didn't anneal the centers to allow manipulation. All part of the learning process, and not that expensive as far as lessons go ;)
Thanks Shutterbug. All things I need to learn. Unfortunately here in Massachusetts there's so few resources. I would love to take a suitcase class, but because of lack of interest some time ago they decided to cancel and wait for more interest. Certainly lesson learned now though.
 

Scottie-TX

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Well, it arrived!
Certainly is a feelthy liddle puppy - caked hard oil like mebbe it was dipped many years ago. Here, after a pre-clean with brake cleaner: 81148.jpg 81149.jpg
 

shutterbug

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Well, I hope you can get this one back together! Not like that last one you volunteered for!

Just messin' with you, Sammy! You're in good hands :D
 

Scottie-TX

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Sometimes the feelthiest are the funnest. Funnest because the transformation is so dramatic. Orthodonty will be in order. It might run with these bent teeth but the beat would be very uneven.
Progress: 81156.jpg 81157.jpg 81158.jpg
 

shutterbug

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Wow, they sure are hooked :)
 

Sammyt97

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Scottie-TX;522348 said:
Sometimes the feelthiest are the funnest. Funnest because the transformation is so dramatic. Orthodonty will be in order. It might run with these bent teeth but the beat would be very uneven.
Progress:
Well, if it needs braces, I can't help. :)

It looks awesome.
 

Dave B

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Maybe somebody bent it it like that, to distribute wear evenly across the whole width of the trundles. :D
-> posts merged by system <-
OOPS! Forgot - it's a 'scape wheel - to make the wear even on the pallets. By the way, those teeth remnd me of my school days: hooky. :D
 

Scottie-TX

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No no, Dave. That's not th' scape wheel, Dave. Th' scape wheel doesn't have a sprang raptaroundit. That's the grape wheel.
 

Scottie-TX

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Actually SAMMY, hard to believe as it may be, th' ol' pros are snickering at this chronicle. Snickering because they know I don't work on klanger sprangers and snickering because they've seen FAR worse - missing teeth bent arbors, missing pivots, to name a few.
I just thought it would be fun to turn this into a sort of picture tutorial for others new to clock dismantling and repair - give them some ideas - guidelines - stuff to look for, etc.
Actually, SAMMY, it would not surprise me or many here to know that indeed, with a proper verge - gunked up as it was - "yes". It might have run.
I say that to encourage YOU and others to get yer feet wet - try this. It ain't rockit sinus!
Now SAMMY: I think we MAY be on the VERGE of success - (if I can pull this off) 81260.jpg
 

Sammyt97

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Hey Scottie,
Well, I sure do appreciate you took on my klunker. It's encouraging to see and watch. I'm not afraid to take on a project. Here are three new ones. Well, two new ones and one just completed. The first one by the label is a Seth Thomas. Looks as if it's a Steeple clock and I think it's older. The flash washed out the color, it looks more like mahogany. Either way the case is my challenge. The second, a Pratt and Sons Clock, isn't anywhere near damaged, but it needs a touch up. The third is a Gilbert Hollywood that when I purchased it, it was falling apart and it was missing the pendulum, the verge, crutch, and suspension rod and spring. I did the case eons ago, and after months of searching found the pendulum on ebay. This past week I used some parts I had in my basement and put the clock together and it's running fine. The gear that controls the hands though is loose and so that's not working, but easy enough to fix that. Lots of fun for the long weekend. 81321.jpg 81322.jpg 81323.jpg
 

Kevin W.

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I really got a desire to get a Gilbert Hollywood one day, i really like the looks of them.
Yes i too have seen some gunked up clocks and somehow they ran and kept decent time.The owners sometimes say,if its working its fine, leave it alone.But we know its likely better to get a clean and oil.:):)
 

Scottie-TX

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Well; Fun's over I guess. Sticka fork in 'er. Bin running several hours now and very healthy. Guess I'll give 'er a dose of La Perle (oil) and return.
I used a Timesavers generic verge. I used the crossing circle method of setting pallet angles, then with locks adjusted, it just took off eagerly. 81434.jpg
 

shutterbug

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Scottie-TX;523271 said:
I used the crossing circle method of setting pallet angles....
Not sure I know what that method is. Can you explain it for me? Thanks!
Great job, but the way - over and above what was requested by a long way :)
 

Sammyt97

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shutterbug;523301 said:
Not sure I know what that method is. Can you explain it for me? Thanks!
Great job, but the way - over and above what was requested by a long way :)
That's very true. I can't wait to put it in the clock. When it's finally up and running I am going to be one happy girl.

Chris
 

shutterbug

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Sammyt97;523308 said:
That's very true. I can't wait to put it in the clock. When it's finally up and running I am going to be one happy girl.

Chris
Yeah. Pretty impressive gift to a stranger :D You should be able to enjoy it for many years!
 

Kevin W.

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Did the pallets have to be closed a fair bit to cover the right number of teeth?
Nice job Scottie, you are a very generous person.
 

MQ32shooter

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Just picked up on this post and followed from front to back. Great job Scottie. Sammiet97, you should by Scottie a drink, if he was inclined to do such a thing. :D
 

Sammyt97

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MQ32shooter;523348 said:
Just picked up on this post and followed from front to back. Great job Scottie. Sammiet97, you should by Scottie a drink, if he was inclined to do such a thing. :D
Certainly I will pay his kindness forward without a doubt and hope that the same kindness and generosity he has shown me will be doubled to him.
 

Scottie-TX

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Please! Please cease this enormous spate - this magnificent outpouring of emotional praise for such a mediocre feat. It has become so exaggerated and smarmy, it's beginning to sound fabricated and disingenuous. All here know I was just hot doggin' -seizing an opportunity to boost my ego in a small arena. So I cleaned a clock. BIG deal. SHEESH. Thanks.
 

Scottie-TX

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SHUT, I used the method Conover describes in "Clock Repair Skills" - that pallet angles should describe a line tangent to the wheel's crossing circle when the entrance pallet rests on a tooth.
KEVIN, I seem to recall that the exit pallet was closed a few degrees and the entrance pallet was closed a few degrees. That left me with excess drops and no lock - oops - bite. Decreasing the distance between the wheel and anchor provided necessary loc - oops - bite.
 
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shutterbug

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Oh. Yeah I guess I did know that one then :D
 

shutterbug

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Scottie-TX;523521 said:
Indeed, I believe it was you who recommended this procedure in a topic not too long ago.
Yeah, I think so. Just hadn't heard it in those terms :)
 

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