References

Discussion in 'wiki development.' started by Richard Watkins, Jun 18, 2009.

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  1. Richard Watkins

    Richard Watkins Registered User
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    There is a wiki markup
     
  2. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    The footnote tag inserts the reference point in the text. To use it, you enter the text of the reference in line where the reference link will appear. You can use a name for the reference if you intend to place it in the text in more than one location. I think these are described reasonably well in [special=wikicodelist]List of Wiki Codes[/special]. You can find the information in the FAQ also.

    It will be described in as much detail as I can muster in the article Authoring Wiki Articles.
     
  3. Richard Watkins

    Richard Watkins Registered User
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    OK, I want to be nominated for the "Most Stupid Wiki User" award.
     
  4. kirxklox

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    I got you beat!
     
  5. Richard Watkins

    Richard Watkins Registered User
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    I have just tried using footnotes, but there are problems.

    I created a footnote as follows:

    [1]

    This works fine. But then I created a second reference to this book:

    [1]

    which does not work although I think that is what the wiki list of codes tells me to do. (There is also a layout problem.

    Anyone know what is wrong?

    The article I am using to test is

    http://mb.nawcc.org/showwiki.php?title=Dennison%2C+Aaron+Lufkin&redirect=no
     
  6. Richard Watkins

    Richard Watkins Registered User
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    Lets try again adding "noparse":
    I have just tried using footnotes, but there are problems.

    I created a footnote as follows:

    [footnote=moore]Moore, Charles: [i]Timing a Century, History of the Waltham Watch Company[/i], Harvard University Press, 1945.[/footnote]

    This works fine. But then I created a second reference to this book:

    [[footnote=moore][/footnote]

    which does not work although I think that is what the wiki list of codes tells me to do. (There is also a layout problem.

    Anyone know what is wrong?

    The article I am using to test is

    http://mb.nawcc.org/showwiki.php?title=Dennison%2C+Aaron+Lufkin
     
  7. kirxklox

    kirxklox Registered User
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    Have you looked at several of Kent's Articles?
     
  8. Richard Watkins

    Richard Watkins Registered User
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    Several of them, but he does not use the footnote/reflist tags.
     
  9. kirxklox

    kirxklox Registered User
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    Richard: It is getting late. I will look into it in the morning and get back with you.

    I thought the Footnote system was not having any problems.
     
  10. kirxklox

    kirxklox Registered User
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    Take a look at how I edited your Article. It worked, kindof!
     
  11. Richard Watkins

    Richard Watkins Registered User
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    You are right, it works, sort of. They are all there, but the numbering in the text is wrong. Sleep well.
     
  12. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    I'd just like you guys to know that I'm following this since I'd like to be able to use footnotes. I tried it once and gave up when I couldn't get it to work for me.

    Thanks for tackling the subject!

    P.S. Richard: I like the Dennison article!
     
  13. kirxklox

    kirxklox Registered User
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    I thought someting was wrong with this, but my memory has Holes in it big enough to drive a MAC Truck through.

    If you will look at the Dueber-hampden watches, 1886, Article, you will find the correct way to use Footnote, or at least a hint of the proceedure.
     
  14. Tom McIntyre

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    I think Richard's question is not about footnotes now, but rather re-using and existing footnote reference by using the name/tag assigned to the footnote.

    I must confess that I have not explored this either. I will take a look at it and follow up with the developers if it does not work as advertised.
     
  15. kirxklox

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    Tom: I was giving various means to Richard at using Footnotes. Footnotes are being Flagged to allow a User to click on the Flag to go directly to the area in the Article. Using a Footnote Multiple times requires Multiple Flags generated which it does. It is all there, just a little obtuse to the casual user.
     
  16. Tom McIntyre

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    I created an example of the use in Footnotes and Reference Lists. As Sam says above, it works as advertised, but is a bit obscure.

    The fundamental problem is that hyperlinks require a different view of multiple use footnotes than printed text. In printed text there is no automatic navigation back to the body of the text where the reference occurs. In the Wiki there are such links, but you need to create multiple back links for each reference if it is used more than once.

    I may play around with the styles to make the symbols in references and back links more easy to read. I believe that numbers are used sequentially in the footnote reference and lower case letters are used sequentially for the back links.

    It is also necessary to have some dummy text in the body of the footnote for the second and subsequent references, but I have not checked that out thoroughly. In any case the body content of the second and subsequent footnotes is ignored. You can see this behavior if you edit the example given above.

    I will cover the behavior of footnotes in the article on Navigating the Wiki.

    To express it as clearly as possible here:

    1. Footnote numbering does not work as it does in traditional printed material.
    2. Footnotes in the text are numbered sequentially even if they are the same as a previous reference footnote.
    3. Numbers in the reference list refer to the first instance of the reference in the text.
    4. Lettered back links refer to each instance of the reference in the text.
    5. Both the option and the parameter text of the footnote must be non-blank.
    6. Unless the footnote is reused, the option value is ignored.
    7. When the footnote is reused, the parameter value is ignored.
     
  17. kirxklox

    kirxklox Registered User
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    Tom: You have missed some attributes of the HTML tag OL.
     
  18. Tom McIntyre

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    Sam, you lost me on that one. What does OL have to do with the footnote/reference facility?

    The [HTML] tag is not discussed in anything I have written so far. I believe it works exactly the same as in vBulletin and has no special Wiki behavior.

    Are you talking about the list in my post above? I just used the editor button to generate the list. If the OL is not handled properly in the generated HTML, that is a vBulletin issue. Exactly what is the problem? (In another thread please. :))
     
  19. kirxklox

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    No, The RefList is an OL operative. That is how the Programmer is getting this to work.

    There is no problem. There are a lot of options that can be used, though.
     
  20. kirxklox

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    One of the ways you can manipulate this is to say:



    [footnote=10,20,30, etc]note about content[/footnote]



    now someone adds a footnote between 10 and 20 or take your pick the next number becomes 11. In other words you can set the original Number base.

    This is how the Footnote Notation is being manipulated on the fly.
     
  21. Tom McIntyre

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    OK. I don't normally look at the rendered code for the articles. The code used to render any given feature can change over time and some of it is controlled by style sheets used by the Wiki.

    The article pages are generated dynamically. So, in principle, the html could change from view to view of any given article. It can also vary by time of day and who is viewing the article or what user group they belong to.

    Many such features show up when we start deploying Templates.
     
  22. kirxklox

    kirxklox Registered User
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    They have cleaned the code so it only generates 1, 2, 3, etc in sequence.
     
  23. Richard Watkins

    Richard Watkins Registered User
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    Did the new system installed last night include an upgrade of the Wiki software? I ask because the footnotes still number incorrectly.
     
  24. kirxklox

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    Richard: That is a major programming problem. We will probably have to live with it.
     
  25. Tom McIntyre

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    Richard, I think the developers believe the current behavior is correct.

    It does differ from printed usage but I have not seen any examples in Wikipedia or elsewhere that handle the multiple reference with two way links issue. It seems to me that if we just document that footnote marks are sequential numbers, several of which might link to the same footnote and footnote back references are sequential letters when there is more than one reference to a given footnote.

    A better usage might be to use something linke 1a, 1b, 1c, 2, 3, 4a, 4b in the text references so that the footnote in the reflist could have the designation 1 with the back references a, b, c as they are now.

    If you feel that is important, or if there is an example of Wikipedia using that syntax, I will request the feature from the developers. If you were expecting some different syntax, please describe it.
     
  26. Richard Watkins

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    Tom and Sam. As I noted in the Dennison article discussion the footnote system is incorrect because it may be impossible to relate a footnote number in the text (1 to 13) to the correct reference (1 to 7).

    Compare the MB article with the identical wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Lufkin_Dennison where the footnotes are correct.
     
  27. Tom McIntyre

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    Thanks for the Wiki reference. I had not seen there usage. I will point that out to the people at CES.

    I think so long as you use the links themselves for navigating in Vault Wiki, you cannot get lost. It is only when you actually read the footnote symbols that the problem arises.

    Wikipedia uses a much larger font for the footnote references which makes them much easier to read.

    I will point out the difference in usage to the developer. He is generally trying to track Wikimedia as closely as he can. He has the Wikimedia source, of course, so this should not really be an issue.
     
  28. Tom McIntyre

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    The CES developer agrees that this is a bug, but may not be able to easily fix it because of the logic of the text parser. Here is his response:
     
  29. kirxklox

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    WikiPedia is only using a single level OL Tag system which is what Richard expects.

    The VaultWiki system uses two levels of OL Tags. It would be better if they would make a PopUp wind to display the Reference like I suggested.

    I think it is so laughable that there is a mixture of References and personal Opinions in these articles. Even Richard is interjecting NOTES as part of the References.
     
  30. Tom McIntyre

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    Sam, I think you must mean "amusing" rather than "laughable."

    It is commonplace in writing to mix both references to external texts and editorial commentary in footnotes. Those are the two major reasons they are used.

    An editorial comment is placed in a footnote to avoid disrupting the flow of thought being expressed in the main stream of information.

    I agree that editorial comments on ones own writing can be amusing. It becomes especially amusing if the author ends up in a heated argument with himself. :)
     
  31. kirxklox

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    The only thing amusing is the amount of WORK you have put into it.
     

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