Re: Low Serial Number JUF Clocks

[MUN CHOR-WENG]

John,
The JUF "S" plate is 1504A in the guide. The number shown in the guide must be wrong though because the evidence is that they started with 50000.)
Eric

Eric,
I cannot say for sure if the serial number shown in Plate 1504A is wrong or not. However I have documented several JUF back plates that have serial numbers below 50000 and one of them with serial number 545 is shown below.



Mun C W

 

[etmb61]

Eric,
I cannot say for sure if the serial number shown in Plate 1504A is wrong or not. However I have documented several JUF back plates that have serial numbers below 50000 and one of them with serial number 545 is shown below.



Mun C W

Mun,

I am curious to see the rest of that one.

Eric

 

[MUN CHOR-WENG]

Mun,

I am curious to see the rest of that one.

Eric

Eric, here's that clock.



Mun C W

 

[John Hubby]

Low Serial Number JUF Clocks

As I mentioned in this thread regarding a JUF that has Plate 1504A, I have started this new thread to discuss the question of dating JUF clocks made after 1900 that have low serial numbers that don't "fit" within the regular production serial numbers.

JUF first used serial numbers on clocks they made commercially for Harder starting in May 1882, continuing in 1883 after F. A. L. DeGruyter purchased Harder's patents and business. In 1887 the Jehlin D.R.P. 2437 patent expired, and by the end of 1888 JUF had stopped using serial numbers. The highest number documented so far for these clocks is SN 5714.

At the beginning of 1907 JUF resumed the practice of using serial numbers for their regular production clocks. Our research shows this started about 50000 which actually coincides with estimated actual production from the time they stopped using serial numbers in 1888. This series continued until the end of 1922 or early 1923 when the practice was again discontinued; the highest serial number recorded to date is 165771.

The clocks that will be the subject of discussion all have serial numbers below 50000, with some having quite low numbers.

Copies of several posts from the other thread have been moved here to begin the discussion, more will be added as we find them. Should any reader have a JUF clock with a serial number below 50000 please post it here for discussion, as this will hopefully enable us to determine exactly when these clocks were made as well as other details.

John, thanks for posting your inquiry and the photos of your JUF clock. I agree with Eric the correct identification is Plate 1504A, and based on the serial number of your clock my database shows it was made right at mid-1909. The serial number shown on Plate 1505A doesn't correlate with any of the other JUF serial numbers for the bulk of their production, but I'll discuss that in a separate message regarding Mun C. W.'s beautiful example with a very low serial number.

 

[Kamil Urbanowicz]

this JUF movement MUN presented with low serial I belive is made after the II world war. I have one example with this type of low serial (sadly without the pendulum), need to look around to make picture of it. When used in standard dome clock they ave a special top pediment (lloking like a Herr Uhrenfabrik ones). Will post this pictures tomorow.

 

[John Hubby]

Eric,
I cannot say for sure if the serial number shown in Plate 1504A is wrong or not. However I have documented several JUF back plates that have serial numbers below 50000 and one of them with serial number 545 is shown below.



Mun C W

Eric, here's that clock.



Mun C W

Mun, thanks very much for posting your low serial number and magnificent JUF clock. I have compiled some information regarding these low serial number movements that may help to define when these clocks were made. At this instant I have data for three of these including your clock, including serial numbers 300, 545, and 725. You mention that you have documented several back plates with low serial numbers, it will be very much appreciated if you could post what you have for discussion here, with photos if available.

My observations including your clock and serial number 300 indicate the earliest possible manufacturing date would be mid-May 1912 at about serial number 120000 when JUF made major changes in their movement construction and features that applied to all movements made after that date. These include:

1) The movement plate thickness was decreased by 0.4 mm from 2.4 mm to 2.0 mm.

2) Upper suspension bracket #10 was introduced and became the standard upper bracket.

3) The pediments were attached to the front of the front plate using the two upper movement post securing nuts instead of being held by screws to the top edge of the front plate.

These all would have been cost-saving measures at a time when the economy in Germany and Europe wasn't all that good and brass was increasing in cost.

I don't have photos of the clock with serial number 725 but have physically examined it thus these observations all apply as well.

A very interesting point regarding these low serial number clocks is they all have very elegant cases and until now none have been found with the common glass dome and spun brass base. Further, none of these cases are shown in the 1910 JUF 400-Day Catalog. However, the same type and design cases have been documented with seven other JUF clocks that have normal serial numbers. Based on the movement serial numbers three of these were made before WWI and four after the war including one that has Plate 1595 made in 1927-1931. It is believed that most of these low number clocks were made after WWI, however we need a lot more data before reaching a firm conclusion.

As to the question of why the low serial numbers, my opinion is that those particular clocks were made as a special order by a third party, as we have seen with all other 400-Day makers both before and after WWI. Unfortunately we haven't found any names yet but with more examples that may be confirmed.

 

[John Hubby]

this JUF movement MUN presented with low serial I belive is made after the II world war. I have one example with this type of low serial (sadly without the pendulum), need to look around to make picture of it. When used in standard dome clock they have a special top pediment (lloking like a Herr Uhrenfabrik ones). Will post this pictures tomorow.

Kamil, I'll look forward to seeing your photos. I've not seen any JUF clock made after 1922 (or early 1923) with a serial number, so it will be very interesting to see what you have.

 

[MUN CHOR-WENG]

Mun, thanks very much for posting your low serial number and magnificent JUF clock. I have compiled some information regarding these low serial number movements that may help to define when these clocks were made. At this instant I have data for three of these including your clock, including serial numbers 300, 545, and 725. You mention that you have documented several back plates with low serial numbers, it will be very much appreciated if you could post what you have for discussion here, with photos if available.

My observations including your clock and serial number 300 indicate the earliest possible manufacturing date would be mid-May 1912 at about serial number 120000 when JUF made major changes in their movement construction and features that applied to all movements made after that date. These include:

1) The movement plate thickness was decreased by 0.4 mm from 2.4 mm to 2.0 mm.

2) Upper suspension bracket #10 was introduced and became the standard upper bracket.

3) The pediments were attached to the front of the front plate using the two upper movement post securing nuts instead of being held by screws to the top edge of the front plate.

These all would have been cost-saving measures at a time when the economy in Germany and Europe wasn't all that good and brass was increasing in cost.

I don't have photos of the clock with serial number 725 but have physically examined it thus these observations all apply as well.

A very interesting point regarding these low serial number clocks is they all have very elegant cases and until now none have been found with the common glass dome and spun brass base. Further, none of these cases are shown in the 1910 JUF 400-Day Catalog. However, the same type and design cases have been documented with seven other JUF clocks that have normal serial numbers. Based on the movement serial numbers three of these were made before WWI and four after the war including one that has Plate 1595 made in 1927-1931. It is believed that most of these low number clocks were made after WWI, however we need a lot more data before reaching a firm conclusion.

As to the question of why the low serial numbers, my opinion is that those particular clocks were made as a special order by a third party, as we have seen with all other 400-Day makers both before and after WWI. Unfortunately we haven't found any names yet but with more examples that may be confirmed.

John, excluding the table clock with s/n 545 that I have posted above ,I have documented two others, both JUF wall clocks with identical case, pendulum and movement. Of these two only one wilh serial number 317 is mine, the other belongs to a collector has serial number 333 . Picture of my clock is shown below. I have this clock for many years and it was featured in an early issue of The Torsion Times ( Q4 1996 )


The clock has a JUF late 1909 patented 4-ball pendulum and it probably could not have been made before 1910. Quite possibly JUF started to introduce the wall 400 day clock fitted with the
newly patented 4-ball pendulum as the action of the moving 4-ball pendulum is more visibly attractive from a distance than a disc pendulum. It is quite possible the clock was made after 1910, perhaps in 1911 or 1912 since it was not featured in the JUF 1910 catalogue.

Mun C W

 

[Kamil Urbanowicz]

Here they go - serial 751
Untypic parts: arch with finials (I noticed this type in three other clocks), suspension bracket and rare bottom block

missing pendulum (was a numbered gustav becker one)

 

[Kamil Urbanowicz]

Here is one more picture

interesting no suspension guard holes?

 

[etmb61]

I don't think the bridge for the click wheel is correct on these low numbered clocks for JUF's early production. Everything I can find apart from these examples have the one piece rectangular(ish) bridge below about JUF #55000. That includes early Hubers and Harders.

Eric

 

[Kamil Urbanowicz]

Eric ,
I rather think that my low number Juf were made just before or after the II world war

 

[etmb61]

Kamil,

I must agree with you on that one. It probably had a ball pendulum.

 

[John Hubby]

I don't think the bridge for the click wheel is correct on these low numbered clocks for JUF's early production. Everything I can find apart from these examples have the one piece rectangular(ish) bridge below about JUF #55000. That includes early Hubers and Harders.

Eric

Eric, my observation is these low serial number clocks were made no earlier than mid-1912 based on movement parts characteristics (see my post #6 above) but also not later than 1922 or early 1923 per my comments to Kamil below. Regarding the ratchet bridge, JUF changed that design from the one-piece machined part to the two-piece figure 8 design about mid-1907. My data show this occurred between serial numbers 56049 and 56105, with the transition being only two or three weeks. JUF were producing about 1,250 clocks a month at the time and the highest serial number I have documented with the one-piece bridge is 56730, about 650 units after the start of the change.

Eric ,
I rather think that my low number Juf were made just before or after the II world war

Here is one more picture. interesting no suspension guard holes?

Kamil, the photo of your back plate is a good illustration of what has been found thus far on all of the low serial number JUF clocks with standard size movements. This is Plate 1618, whereas the wall model movements that Mun C. W. mentioned earlier are the same as Plate 1722, except for that clock the winding arbor is actually lower than illustrated in all the examples found to date. Neither of these plates have suspension guard holes.

NOTE: I will focus the rest of my comments following on the standard size movements. The wall clocks need to be discussed separately as they have been documented with other markings including "Solid Steel Pinions", "Made in Germany", the 1923-1927 stamping of two logos being the circular "Jahresuhrenfabrik G.m.b.H Germany" logo and "Double Elephant" logo, and the 1927-31 JUF "Double Elephant" logo. At least one clock has been documented with no markings on the movement, the same as Plate 1722.

The serial number 165771 on Plate 1618 is the highest number thus far recorded for a JUF and shows it was completed very late 1922 or early 1923, based on continuous numbering from the beginning of 1907 at 50001 and supported by firm data within that range. My database contains "many" confirmed data points including patent references, presentation inscriptions, trade magazine announcements and advertising, etc.

Regarding when the low serial number standard movements were actually made, we need to compare their characteristics to JUF movements that have normal production serial numbers as well as the cases they have and other features.

1) All the low number standard movements have the same features as movements made starting mid-1912, except that Kamil's clock has a different upper suspension bracket and lower suspension block, also the pediment and movement support pillar finials are different from normal JUF parts. See my later comments.

2) The cases documented or observed to date are identical to or of similar design to cases documented from just after WWI and continuing at least to 1923 that have normal production serial numbers. This includes Kamil's clock.

3) None of the low serial number standard clocks have any markings to indicate production after 1923. In fact, the lack of any JUF logo and the presence of a serial number strongly favors these clocks being made prior to September 1921 when JUF first used their circular "Jahresuhren-Fabrik G.m.b.H. Germany" logo stamp. We have no verifiable evidence that JUF applied serial numbers to any of their clocks after early 1923.

4) With one exception that will be investigated separately, the serial number of these clocks are all three digit numbers. This is a strong indicator that the movements, regardless of what case they were placed in, were all part of a special run or special order as has been found with other makers especially Kienzle clocks.

Using these criteria and observations, my present best guess as to when these low serial number standard movement clocks were made is between 1919 and 1921 and possibly all in 1920 based on the following "key" markers:

>> Serial numbers found to date are all three digits, indicating a special order or small batch run of movements of less than 1,000 in total, thus all made within a short period of time likely within the same year.

>> Cases of #300 and #525 each have a "near-twin" that has a regular production serial number. These two clocks have serial numbers 148117 and 149615, both made near the beginning of 1920. Also the same design disc pendulum is found with all four of these clocks.

>> Kamil's glass dome clock, with the exception of the pediment and movement support pillar finials, is found a number of times after WWI and later into the 1920's, however we have not found any JUF with a serial number after early 1923.

Finally there are some questions with regard to three parts of Kamil's clock.

First the upper suspension bracket. As noted earlier, virtually all JUF movements manufactured after mid-1912 use the No. 10 upper bracket right out until the stop of production for WWII. The bracket on your clock was made before 1907 and likely earlier. Also, I have been unable to find this exact bracket on any JUF clock in my archives, nor on any Harder or Huber that all were made to the same basic patent designs. I've not seen this construction before with the upper block platform screwed to the upright part of the bracket, and I notice the two fixing screws are not quite centered so it appears this is a "manufactured" bracket. The upright part is very similar to the ones used by these makers, however "all" of the examples I have in my archives have the upper block platform integral with the upright part. Conclusion: This part is not original with the clock.

Next the lower suspension block. I've not seen this design before so do not have any reference to make about who may have made it. There is no question it is professionally done and very well designed, I would think it should have become very popular with 400-Day makers. Since this is the first one I've documented, no idea who made it but until now it has not been found with any JUF clock in my database.

The pediment finials have not been found on any JUF in my archives, although the pediment itself appears to be an original JUF. You mention you have seen this design on three other clocks. Who were the makers for those three? These finials appear to be of a style used after WWII so they may have come from another clock made after that war.

The movement support pillar finials also are not JUF design, here again I don't recognize them so it appears they also aren't original.

The pendulum for your clock could have been either a JUF disc or the No. 39 4-Ball; the examples I have in my data that were made from 1919 through 1922 have about half with disc and half with the 4-Ball pendulum.

 

[Kamil Urbanowicz]

Here is picture of the movement for spares bought a month ago - which I belive is also JUF. Bought it especially for this rare pediment.

 

[John Hubby]

Here is picture of the movement for spares bought a month ago - which I belive is also JUF. Bought it especially for this rare pediment.

Kamil, thanks for posting. I've done some exposure adjustments for your photos so the details can be more easily seen. This movement has JUF Plate 1651A which is shown in the Repair Guide as being circa 1905. However, all of the movements I've seen with this back plate were made no earlier than mid-1912 per the changes in design I posted earlier. My data so far actually point to movements with this plate all being made between 1931 and 1939, with most of them being fitted to Louvre model clocks that have little need for a suspension guard, at least for the reasons one is fitted to a normal glass dome clock. Also, although movements with this plate may well have been made between 1912 and 1931, I've not found any so far that could be conclusively dated to that period. Actually I have three clocks in my data for this plate that have dated presentation inscriptions for 1932, 1936, and 1939 but none with any earlier dates.

The pediment finials on this movement without question are identical to the ones on your SN 751 clock, so it appears that could be original to the clock. I again reviewed my archives for different JUF finials but didn't find any examples of this one. However, what I did find was that JUF finial design changed quite a bit over time, more than I expected. I'll post the results of that later, but also can see that the finials on your two clocks would not have been out of place in particular after WWI. It would have been very interesting had this movement been a complete clock with the movement support pillars and finials present. Perhaps another one will show up to help us with the question.

 

[Kamil Urbanowicz]

I will see in my older data base if I saved the picture of the other clocks I noticed with this type of finials - but for sure it was a standard juf clock with glass dome - not a bandstand.

 

[MartinM]

I will see in my older data base if I saved the picture of the other clocks I noticed with this type of finials - but for sure it was a standard juf clock with glass dome - not a bandstand.

Agreed. There would be no need for the finials on a bandstand clock

 

[RDeWees]

Hello I don’t know much about this wall clock, but it’s marked J.U.F. I’m hoping someone can tell me more about it. Thank you!