Rare Pendule de Cartonnier by Pierre Le Maistre of Paris. 17th C. movement? And later.

[Chris Radano]

Just had this delivered late last evening. It is a big lump of a clock, you could say it is a piece of furniture. Well actually it is a clock that would sit on a piece of furniture. It is a pendule de cartonnier.
Where to start? To begin with, the 9" dial is Louis XVI and therefore a replacement. Probably the bezel is later as well. But viewing the clock this seems obvious. The clock may have been updated in it's life to keep pace with fashion.
It is a large case that appears to date from the first quarter of the 18th . But the movement looks 17th c. It is large and 6 pillar. The clock came with a #21 key. Also the movement has been converted to anchor. Looks like it could be an English conversion judging by the back cock and crutch design. I still have not taken the movement out of the case. That comes later.
The clock is clean and looks to have been well cared for in it's life. The case is 21" H, 17.5" W and 9.25" D. A very large and satisfying clock.
I managed to find a pic of a pendule de cartonnier in it's natural habitat. With a similar dial so apparently the replacement is not egregious:

c1720 A GILT-BRONZE MOUNTED ROSEWOOD AND TULIPWOOD CARTONNIER, RÉGENCE, CIRCA 1720, AND A KINGWOOD CLOCK OF LATER DATE Estimate 3,000 — 5,000 EUR 3,332 - 5,55…

12-gen-2018 - View auction details, art exhibitions and online catalogues; bid, buy and collect contemporary, impressionist or modern art, old masters, jewellery, wine, watches, prints, rugs and books at sotheby's auction house

www.pinterest.fr

 

[leeinv66]

Very nice Chris! I am more than a little envious of that one

 

[zedric]

Very nice indeed - and it does look to be an older movement from looking at the backplate at least. The movement, as you would expect from the early part of the 18th century, is wide so the winding holes cut across the 4/5 and 7/8 digits, indicating that, if the dial is indeed replaced, it was made specifically. Hands are really nice

 

[Chris Radano]

I had the movement out and took some pics. Just a standard 6 pillar time and hour with half hour strike. The anchor conversion is looking English, mid 19th, and of the dead beat variety.
Looks like it was serviced in 2000, which is the date inscribed rather elegantly in back of the dial under the movement (previous post). There is a date of 1739 on the front plate, above the plate wrinkle (only "39" is legible in my pic). Gummy movement but got it to strike a couple times.
Cartouche hour "1" popped off it's brass backing promptly upon flipping the dial over. Good timing for that. Re-applied with putty so it protrudes a mm but it will hold a long time and the hour hand has clearance.
There are some loose veneer shards in back of the case that are noticeable when handling the case. I will give it some precision gluing. The case could have used side doors.
A couple items regarding the movement- the fly is oval and skeletonized. There is a bow tie repair on the front plate at upper right. I did briefly look at the pates and they appear to be structurally sound although not entirely flat surfaced.

 

[P.Hageman]

What an interesting couple of pictures! Really like the way the casting crack has been repaired in the past. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Chris Radano]

Haha. You have to love old clocks, right? That repair looks like it worked. 320 years and still looks the same. That is, if it is what I think it is- a repair that was made when the brass parts were new. Also what you see with French clocks, no visible movement wear.
I'm glad I bought that old piece of furniture.

 

[P.Hageman]

Haha. You have to love old clocks, right? That repair looks like it worked. 320 years and still looks the same. That is, if it is what I think it is- a repair that was made when the brass parts were new. Also what you see with French clocks, no visible movement wear.
I'm glad I bought that old piece of furniture.

Yep, that is what always fascinates me on these French movements, how on earth is it possible there is almost no wear visible to the naked eye! I wonder if this has something to do with the knowledge on metals they had or how to shape the teeth and pinions the best way? Perhaps a good subject to a new thread?

 

[Bernhard J.]

A lot of interesting details, e.g. the "floating" double ended click spring.

Great clock!

 

[DeanT]

I do like that clock....its a bit outside my field of knowledge but the enamel dial and the style of movement both coexisted at the same time (late 17th and early 18thC) so I don't see why they aren't original to each other. Obviously, it hard to tell from the photos but there are no red flags that I can see. The dial seems a good match for the winding holes as well.

Further, that style of case is seen in the early 18thC as well. They are often called Tete de Poupee (doll's head clock) and often feature Boulle decoration but I have seen similar plain examples as well. Again, from the photos its hard to get a feel whether it is original or not but I certainly wouldn't discount the possibility it started life together.

In summary, its a lovely piece which looks great.

Well done. Again. You are on a roll and I like your choices.

Cheers
Dean

 

[DeanT]

Yep, that is what always fascinates me on these French movements, how on earth is it possible there is almost no wear visible to the naked eye! I wonder if this has something to do with the knowledge on metals they had or how to shape the teeth and pinions the best way? Perhaps a good subject to a new thread?

Peter....a topic which is very interesting to me. The early German and French movements often show minimal wear for their age. Without knowing why I always assumed the quality of their steel was superior and now that I have more knowledge of the methods used for its production I'm more confident this is actually the case. Without wanting to hijack Chris' thread I'd be happy to start a new one on the topic if its not been discussed before.

i’ve attached a few photos of a pinion cut from a piece of bloom steel made to make the 16thC German process.

 

[WIngraham]

Absolutely beautiful, that is an eye catching clock. Very unusual case, and rare. I think definitely part of a piece of Louis XIV furniture as surmised, a pendule de cartonnier.

My two cents about the dial are that it is from a lantern clock. It would be a perfect donor since the winding holes could be drilled exactly where you need them. The dial on this one has multiple unused holes, including several near the top which would could have been for a fret. The back of the dial plate also looks very nicely finished for such an early clock and out of place. Maybe it's just clean. I don't know.

You do see multiple piece and single piece enamel dials in the early 18th century but ones with enamel pieces for the 5 minute markers are usually Louis XV onward, in my limited experience. This could be a later replacement of a badly damaged enamel dial. Here is an example of an early 18thC clock of a similar vein but smaller scale, and on a bracket hence lower window being hinged for access. (image courtesy of Kjellberg's Encyclopédie).


Revising my earlier thought in a PM, I think the movement and case are original together. I have now seen multiple examples of floor clocks (~1700) that have the same silhouette and wide top as your clock. Further supporting it was part of large piece of furniture. And a very uncommon survivor.

Looks like there are two holes at the bottom of the case for securing it to whatever it was part of? What does the bottom look like? No front access to the pendulum, that is interesting.

I still have a lot to learn, so take this with a grain of salt. Certainly looks great either way you look at it. With a top quality movement, that has been well taken care of. I would make room for it anywhere.

 

[zedric]

These two are shown in one of my books as examples of early Louis XV (1720 to 1770). note the similarities between the longcase clock upper and the clock here. Both have 5-minute markers as per Chris's clock



would be good to be able to talk to an expert on these, but I don't think it is out of the question that the dial is original. And it may have been a pedestal clock.

 

[WIngraham]

Why the extra holes, that do not pierce the dial plate? The dial style of the floor regulator is quite different than the cartel and probably earlier (edit).

My earlier post says the 24+ piece dials are Louis XV onwards. I think this clock is earlier than that. Especially given the strike gates (not sure of the correct term).

The floor regulator is a perfect example of a similar silhouetted clock. Closer to 1700.

 

[zedric]

Why the extra holes, that do not pierce the dial plate? The dial style of the floor regulator is quite different than the cartel and probably earlier (edit).

I'm probably exposing my ignorance, but where are the extra holes? I assume that this is the photo you are looking at?



All I can see are the 3 holes for the hands and winding, then the holes around the edge to fix the dial to the case, then the holes through which the porcelain plates are fixed. I can't see any extra holes?

 

[zedric]

Think I've worked out where I was going wrong - I assume that these are the holes you are asking about.. For which I don't have an explanation, and can see why you are thinking it might have had an earlier life

 

[zedric]

The floor regulator is a perfect example of a similar silhouetted clock. Closer to 1700.

The authors of the book, which is on French clocks through the ages, giving examples of how to date them, list this one in the 1720-1770 segment, but as I have said, I am no expert on these

 

[Chris Radano]

The topic of why there is (usually lack of) wear to French movements has been discussed and it was in another thread. I don't mind hijacking a thread but it will usually hide an ancillary topic. Ralph I recall had some input that I thought was noteworthy.

I am confident this was a true pendule de cartonnier and therefore a piece of furniture. It is a thick, massive, and bulky clock and I believe not made to hang on a wall bracket. Likely it simply sat on top of furniture. I peeked at the underside and there are two holes that do not penetrate through the bottom. (Also large dovetails).

I mentioned the clock has undergone changes in it's life but for me it remains a great acquisition. And the price made it more obtainable.

 

[P.Hageman]

Peter....a topic which is very interesting to me. The early German and French movements often show minimal wear for their age. Without knowing why I always assumed the quality of their steel was superior and now that I have more knowledge of the methods used for its production I'm more confident this is actually the case. Without wanting to hijack Chris' thread I'd be happy to start a new one on the topic if its not been discussed before.

i’ve attached a few photos of a pinion cut from a piece of bloom steel made to make the 16thC German process.
View attachment 747599 View attachment 747600 View attachment 747601

I have no idea if this has been discussed before. But I think it is a very interesting issue!

 

[Steven Thornberry]

Without wanting to hijack Chris' thread I'd be happy to start a new one on the topic if its not been discussed before.

No objections to a new thread on the topic.