Rack Won't Advance

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by Douglas Ballard, Jul 14, 2017.

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  1. Douglas Ballard

    Douglas Ballard Registered User
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  2. Jasons34

    Jasons34 Registered User

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    To me it looks like the rack is not pulled far enough to the right to advance it one tooth. Could be the pin on the rotating part (excuse my lack of terminology) could be bent in enough which is not pushing the rack far enough to the right thus not allowing the big lever above to advance a tooth. Just my opinion though
     
  3. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Don't try to bend the pin. They are usually hardened and will
    just snap.
    The more likely is needing a bushing on the gathering pallet's arbor.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  4. David S

    David S Registered User
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    If it is the bushing you should be able to test by shoving the arbor over with something like a steel scale to get more engagement while it is trying to gather.

    David
     
  5. Jasons34

    Jasons34 Registered User

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    Just a question but why would the pin be hardened when there is no reason for it to be? There is no load on that pin like there is with a pivot.
     
  6. Douglas Ballard

    Douglas Ballard Registered User
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    I will take a look at the gathering pallet arbor and report back.
     
  7. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Don't know but I've seen them snapped off.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  8. Douglas Ballard

    Douglas Ballard Registered User
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    Does not seem to be an slop in the gp arbor . . .
     
  9. gleber

    gleber Registered User

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    Is the spring at the bottom too strong?

    Does the rack rotate freely by hand? Is anything blocking it?

    Is the rack tooth or teeth damaged?

    Tom
     
  10. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    I just saw the video ( didn't work an my other computer ).
    The GP looks like it may have been a replacement. The long
    pin is not likely original.
    The rack hook looks to have been adjusted near the pointed end.
    It is possible that someone ( for what ever reason ), bent it
    a little to the right.
    It looks like someone was at it with a pair of pliers.
    You might examine how it lands in the teeth of the rack when
    sampling the snail.
    You might also look at how much clearance the GP's pin has
    from the tip of the rack teeth when it first engages the rack teeth.
    It should first engage near the tip of the tooth but not so close
    that it might jam.
    I suspect you'll see it engages part way down the tooth, also indicating
    the rack hook is incorrect.
    Since I can't see these parts in the video, you'll have to investigate
    by slowly running the strike and using a small mirror.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  11. Douglas Ballard

    Douglas Ballard Registered User
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    Spring appears to be original and not too strong. The rack does rotate freely by hand, does not appear to be block by anything. Don't see any damage to rack teeth.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Tinker, thanks for posting things to look for. Will be doing that today.
     
  12. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    My thinking is that the rack hook tip was bent in an attempt
    to correct for the rack tail not being set right. This would reduce the amount
    of movement the GP was applying to the rack and not moving it far
    enough to move the rack hook to the next tooth.
    It may also be that the pawl of the GP is warn down so much that
    it is not moving the rack as far as it should.
    There is also, the thought that the GP is a replacement and the pawl
    part that moves the rack was inadvertently filed down too much.
    Seeing the damage to the tip of the rack hook could be any one of these
    issues or even a combination of them.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  13. shutterbug

    shutterbug Super Moderator
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    It looks to me like the gp is not advancing the rack. It could be that it's been filed, or replaced, as Tinker said.
     
  14. shimmystep

    shimmystep Registered User
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    Agree where folk mention the gathering pallet. The nib of the GP is disengaging before it has moved the rack far enough along to allow the rack hook to drop into the next tooth.
    As Tinker has pointed out, the rack hook has been bent.This bend will not have made any beneficial change to synchronising. I think if you bend the tip of the rack hook back a fraction, it will fall into the next tooth as it is designed to do.
     
  15. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    My thinking is that you could rotate the GP by hand.
    Lift the rack hook or tie it out of the way.
    See how far to the left you can practically have the rack and still
    safely catch a tooth without catching.
    Mark the position of the rack so that you can repeat it.
    Move the end of the rack hook so that it holds it in this position.
    Check the rack tail and snail to get the rack to fall such that the
    rack hook is close to the center of a valley when released.
    Of course check that the count is right. If not, change the
    angle of the rack tail.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  16. Douglas Ballard

    Douglas Ballard Registered User
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    I pulled the GP and straightened the pin, not bent much but slightly. This fixed the problem, however now the snail won't advance around the 11-12 hour. I'm thinking it needs cleaning so am tearing it apart now. If the problem persists I will take a closer look at the rack hook. Thank you to everyone for your help.
     
  17. Douglas Ballard

    Douglas Ballard Registered User
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    Tinker, it only "sticks" on this one tooth, all before it and after it advance correctly. I pulled the rack and all the teeth look good, even under magnification. I also pulled the rack hook, looks like it has been buggered with but then why would it work ok on all the teeth but one? I took the movement apart and cleaned/oiled it. Time side running great as is the strike side except for this one issue.

     
  18. shimmystep

    shimmystep Registered User
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    Hey Doug. Can we see another video of where how it is operating now? With the new single tooth issue?
     
  19. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    There is always a slight machining difference on teeth. It is
    even possible, looking at what someone did to the rack hook that
    someone may have filed that tooth just a little.
    I would say to look at all the locations and see where the
    gathering pallet picks up the tooth on each tooth.
    If it is always deep on each tooth, adjusting the rack hook
    is the right way. If it is picking up right at the tip, adjusting
    the rack hook is likely to cause issues with the other teeth.
    You'd want to adjust the tip to the left as far as the other
    teeth would allow for the pickup of the gathering pallet.
    The only other option I see is to add metal to the edge of
    the tooth the gathering pallet is pushing on to increase
    the distance the gathering pallet lifts the tooth.
    I'm more inclined to try to restore the rack hook to
    a better position but then I do not have the movement
    in hand.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  20. Douglas Ballard

    Douglas Ballard Registered User
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    Yep, will get a video at lunch.
     
  21. Douglas Ballard

    Douglas Ballard Registered User
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    Tinker, before I "adjust" anything I'm going to post some photos of the rack and the rack hook for you to look at.

     
  22. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    #22 Tinker Dwight, Jul 24, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2017
    It is hard to see when the GP is picking up the tooth when watching
    a full speed video.
    Can you run it slowly by hand so I can see what is happening?
    Stop at each point, when the GP first starts pushing the rack
    and when it first lets go of the rack.
    Also do one showing a working step.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  23. Douglas Ballard

    Douglas Ballard Registered User
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    [​IMG][​IMG]

    I did the attached Youtube video when home for lunch, didn't see Tinker's last post until I got back to work. The jumping around is due to the retaining pins being removed from the rack and rack hook. "Normally" it advances fine until it hits that one tooth. I marked the tooth that does not advance.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oTt5TkTceY&feature=em-upload_owner
     
  24. shutterbug

    shutterbug Super Moderator
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    It looks like that tooth may have been filed deeper, and it can't lift to jump the point. You might have to either fill it a bit or file that next point down just a tad.
     
  25. Douglas Ballard

    Douglas Ballard Registered User
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    Sharp eyes shutterbug! I think I will try filling it first since that can be "undone." Thanks.
     
  26. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Is that the one the rack hook is in or the tooth the GP is
    pushing on?
    The third tooth back from the end looks slightly bent
    to the right. That might be enough to keep it from
    getting the rack hook over the hump.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  27. Douglas Ballard

    Douglas Ballard Registered User
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    Got the first problem fixed by smoothing off the rack hook where someone took pliers to it, straighten out the gp pin and slightly raised the rack by pushing it up. Now . . . at the 11 hour strike it skips and tooth and strikes 10 and at the 12 hour skips (probably the same) a tooth and strikes 11. Should I raise that end of the rack hook (right side, facing it) a bit? Also straightened out the rack teeth as recommended although they were not bent all that much, had to look at them through magnifiers.
     
  28. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    I'd like to see what it is doing at the various times. Maybe a couple times
    towards 1 or 2 and the at 11 and 12.
    We don't want to bend too many things.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  29. Douglas Ballard

    Douglas Ballard Registered User
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    #29 Douglas Ballard, Jul 25, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
    I cycled it all the way through. This time the 11 strike worked but the 12 strike skipped a tooth. Go figure. You can see how the rack hook "hops" at the higher hours.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApOt6IMTJyQ
     
  30. harold bain

    harold bain Forums Administrator
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    I can't open your video, but if you can see how it happens, why not fix it?
     
  31. Douglas Ballard

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  32. Douglas Ballard

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  33. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    It looks like is gets worse as the rack moves along.
    You might try adjusting the rack tail to get a happy medium at both ends
    of the rack.
    It would be easier if you tool the motion works off so you could move the
    snail back and forth between 1 and 12.
    It might get back to where it was before. You then might correct the
    third tooth in that was slightly bent, that I mentioned earlier.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  34. Douglas Ballard

    Douglas Ballard Registered User
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    Thanks Tinker, I'll give this a shot.
     
  35. Douglas Ballard

    Douglas Ballard Registered User
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    Working correctly now after moving the snail back/forth between the 12 and 1. Had to slightly adjust the rack, fix that third tooth and test. Thanks to everyone for their help. The rack was pressed back toward the plate too far. Once I got that taken care of it strikes as it should.
     
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