Rack and Gathering Pallet Issue

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by dwlodyka, Jul 14, 2017.

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  1. dwlodyka

    dwlodyka Registered User
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    I'm working on a German Gata Westminster chime movement. The rack and gathering pallet seem not to be working properly. Essentially, the pawl on the pallet does not seem to be lifting the teeth of the rack high enough or the locking piece on the "J" shaped lever is not locking on the rack. The rack teeth do look worn. I've included a picture.

    Your thoughts on how to make this right?

    Thank you,

    Dennis
     
  2. gleber

    gleber Registered User

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    That pin looks so close to the shaft that it appears there would hardly be any lift during the period it is engaged with a tooth. Is the pin a replacement and is it in the right place? It is hard to tell from the photo.

    Tom
     
  3. shutterbug

    shutterbug Super Moderator
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    The pin might be bent, too. Try pushing it toward the edge of the GP more. The teeth do look worn, but not enough to cause an issue. It's also possible that the GP is positioned wrong, and lifts and releases a tooth before the hook can grab it. Double check that the hammer lever falls just as the train stops.
     
  4. JTD

    JTD Registered User
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    Just for my own education: I have never heard of the German clock name Gata before. Please could you post a photo of the movement and (if possible) the name/mark?

    Thanks in advance.

    JTD

    It just came to my mind that perhaps you meant to write GALA? (That might be Thomas Ernst Haller or Müller & Schlenker).
     
  5. dwlodyka

    dwlodyka Registered User
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    Hello folks,

    I'm enclosing a few more pictures, one containing the manufacturer's name.

    The pallet and pawl look to be original. The pawl has not been moved, as far as I can tell. I bent the pawl a little toward the edge of the pallet and Bazinga! The contraption now works as intended. With perfect teeth, the rack and pallet should work with the pawl in the original position. If need be, some day I may have to address the worn rack teeth.

    On to making the adjustments to insure proper sync, etc. I have to put the clock on the stand and try to figure that out.

    Thanks,

    Dennis[​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  6. JTD

    JTD Registered User
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    Thanks for posting the photos of the movement - and now we see it's not Gata, it's GUFA (Gütenbacher Uhrenfabrik KG).

    Mystery solved!

    JTD
     
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  7. gleber

    gleber Registered User

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    Glad it's working, but I can't figure out how the rack teeth would wear much, if at all?

    Tom
     
  8. dwlodyka

    dwlodyka Registered User
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    Gufa? I guess that's why I couldn't find any references to Gata. Good Catch. Thanks.
     
  9. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User
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    You might check for a worn bushing/pivot hole at the gathering pallet arbor. Not uncommon to find wear at this location and if bad enough it can affect the pallet-rack engagement.

    RC
     
  10. dwlodyka

    dwlodyka Registered User
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    It appears as if I might need some help setting up the chime and perhaps strike sides. Are the pictures that I've posted enough, or will other pictures be needed?
     
  11. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    You'd need to tell us the issue.
    The front plate shows most things but it looks to have an
    internal auto correction lever. That normally catches after
    the 3/4 hour chime plays.
    You need to check that you have warning on both strike and chime.
    If the chimes are regular Westminster, you adjust the drum for descending chime
    on the first 1/4.
    Stops for the chime can be set by loosening or removing the chime
    plate and trigger it. The strike is similar. You pull the gathering pallet.
    The auto correction may be a pin on the back of the chime plate or
    internal. If internal, you need to trip it until it catches and then set
    the chime plate between 3/4 and the hour. I a pin, it is already
    right.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  12. bangster

    bangster Super Moderator
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    At the end of the strike, the pin on the rack hook should be nestled in the hollow of the GP; hook should be completely under rack.

    Have a look at Chime Clock Basics.
     
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  13. dwlodyka

    dwlodyka Registered User
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    The strike side has no provision for a warning run.. The pin travels from one stop to another. The warning run as now set up on the chime side is rather long, perhaps 340 degrees. Seems to be ok, though.

    It's on a test stand now. I will need to sync the chimes.
     
  14. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    I don't have the clock in front of me but usually there is a warning
    run on the strike side.
    When the long lever is lifted by the bump on the locking plate cam,
    you are saying that when the rack hook is lifted the gathering
    pallet doesn't rotate a little?
    Tinker Dwight
     
  15. dwlodyka

    dwlodyka Registered User
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    There is movement, however it is preset. The warning pin simply moves from one stop to the other. The run is between the two stops and cannot be changed.
     
  16. dwlodyka

    dwlodyka Registered User
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    Bangster, thank you for the Chime Clock Basis piece.
     
  17. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Usually it moves from a stop on the rack hook to
    a stop on the long lever. This is a warning cycle.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  18. shutterbug

    shutterbug Super Moderator
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    To set the chime train, first be sure that the snail is in the correct position to allow the strike function to work correctly. Then remove the count wheel (front upper right, with the cam notches and a set screw) and allow the chime to run until it stops. That will be the 3/4 hour chime correction stop. Put the count wheel back on at the 3/4 hour position. Loosen the chime wheel at the back of the movement and turn the chimes until the end of the 3/4 hour chime is reached (four hammers fall in sequence, front to back or back to front). Tighten it down. That's it.
     
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  19. dwlodyka

    dwlodyka Registered User
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    I will have questions, however I want to review Bangster's Chime Clock Basics first.
     
  20. dwlodyka

    dwlodyka Registered User
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    When I try to set the chime train, the train runs as if it is at the quarter hour and then locks. Each time I move the minute hand to trigger the chime train, the train will run as if it is the quarter hour. I cannot seem to get the correction hook to drop into the détente in the correction cam. In other words, when I start the chime train, it does not run until the three-quarter correction détente. The correction hook cam follower will not drop into the détente on the correction cam.

    When I remove the count wheel, the chime should run until the cam follower falls into the détente in the cam? That is not happening.
     
  21. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    I'm a little confused by your terms. What are you referring to as the count wheel and detent in the cam?
    The correction detent is usually part of the chime locking plate but when not, one needs to set the
    locking plate to the end of the 3/4 to match the correction lock.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  22. shutterbug

    shutterbug Super Moderator
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    It looks like the stop pin might be between the plates on that one. I suspect that there are two hooks, one for the regular chime and one for the auto-synch function. That last one is probably set too low, and is grabbing the stop pin at every pass. It should only engage at the 3/4 hour.
     
  23. dwlodyka

    dwlodyka Registered User
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    I've included more pictures. I hope that they help.

    As I understand the instructions, the count wheel is removed and the chime train set in motion. Once in motion, the chime train should run until the follower on the correction cam falls into the détente on the cam. However, this is not happening on this movement. The correction hook never grabs the pin. Instead, the chime sequence never goes beyond the first quarter. Also, the correction cam follower never drops into the détente and the correction hook never grabs the correction pin. The cam is located on the same arbor as is the countwheel. [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
     
  24. shutterbug

    shutterbug Super Moderator
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    OK, when the pin is in position to be stopped by the levers, stop the fly, loosen the detente and move it to position the lever in the way of the pin. See if that fixes things for you.
     
  25. dwlodyka

    dwlodyka Registered User
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    I can get the chime side to chime in the correct order and length if I align the détente in the count wheel with the stop pin and the lever that stops it. However, won't I also have to align the détente in the count wheel with the drop off on the correction cam? Otherwise, the correction lever will never fall low enough to capture the correction pin?
     
  26. dwlodyka

    dwlodyka Registered User
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    By count wheel, I mean the chime locking plate. By détente in the cam, I mean the correction cam (where the follower falls off after riding on the cam. As I understand, it is this "drop off" of the correction cam that activates the correction hook. I hope that this explains my thought more clearly.
     
  27. RJSoftware

    RJSoftware Registered User

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    Typical of bushing wear. With mainspring power released wiggle main gears back and forth. Any pivot tip that you see that wiggles equal to or more than 1/3rd the diameter of the pivot needs bushing work. Obvious signs of a worn bushing hole is shaped like an oval, where the pressure of the gears pushing makes the pivot eat the bushing hole into an oval. This causes gears to bog down to tighten in a bad mesh.

    I take the cam off first before disassembly. Put your finger on gear after fly and twist back and forth gently to pull cam off. It's a friction fit.
    Most times I can leave the pressed on minute arbor pinion alone. Just make re-assembly a little more awkward.

    RJ
     
  28. shutterbug

    shutterbug Super Moderator
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    Yes, but for now leave it off until you can verify the stop. Then put it on in the 3/4 position.
     
  29. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    By "leave it off" he means chime plate.
    Just to clarify.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  30. dwlodyka

    dwlodyka Registered User
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    Before I begin to make adjustments, there is one more feature to this clock that perhaps I need an explanation of. On the same arbor that carries the long locking lever, is a small lever that seems to lift the correction hook between the plates. It is visible in the pictures and is adjusted via a set screw. I'm not sure as to how that lifting lever should be set up.

    Thank you for your help!

    Dennis
     
  31. shutterbug

    shutterbug Super Moderator
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    You may not need to adjust that, but when both hooks are engaged with the stop pin, they should both be on the pin and even. The main issue is that they both clear the pin when the lift occurs at the hour. It might take a little tweaking, but you'll get it :)
     
  32. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    I'm looking at the last picture looking down into the movement.
    I can see the hook that stops it and the detent lever.
    I'm not familiar with this movement but isn't the detent stop
    suppose to be straight? it looks bent. Is that normal?
    Isn't there suppose to be a little warning run?
    Tinker Dwight
     
  33. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    #33 Tinker Dwight, Jul 18, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2017
    There are two hooks. The longer one is the warning hook. The shorter
    one is the auto correction.
    The screw should be adjusted so that the longer hook doesn't
    catch the warning pin when the lever is running on the chime late cam.
    It still shouldn't be so high that the shorter hook doesn't catch
    the auto correction pin on the same shaft that the chime plate is mounted
    on.
    I'm a little concerned about the bend in the detent at the warning pin.
    It looks like there is almost no travel after the hook releases the warning
    pin until the detent stops it.
    This warning travel is necessary for the chime plate cam to rotate far
    enough that, when released by the star cam on the center shaft, the
    long lever's cam following pin on the chime plate doesn't fall back into
    the stop position.
    The sequence of events should be:
    1. As the minute hand approaches a quarter the star cam lifts the long
    lever. ( not the hour )
    2. it lifts it high enough that the detent at the warning pin will catch it
    if released by the hook holding the pin.
    3. The correction hook is not holding on itspin
    4. The long lever lifts the hook holding the warning pin.
    5. Some warn run takes place such that the chime plate moves some.
    6. As the minute hand reaches the hour, it drops the long lever.
    this releases the warning pin and the chimes run.
    7. The chime plate turns to the next notch.
    8.If the chime sequence was the 3/4 hour sequence, the correction
    hook should catch.

    If the chime was the hour sequence, the star cam would have lifted
    the long lever high enough on step 2 to release the correction hook
    just before the warning run.
    As the hour chime is playing, the hump in the middle of the hour span
    of the chime plate cam would lift the long lever high enough to put
    the strike into warning.
    When the chime plate stopped the chime, the long lever would drop
    low enough to release the strikes warning.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  34. dwlodyka

    dwlodyka Registered User
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    Yes, the détente is bent towards the chime plate. I didn't notice this as a problem as I found the movement in this condition. Straightening the détente may just bring the correction hook closer over the pin. Right now, the correction hook isn't catching anything.
     
  35. dwlodyka

    dwlodyka Registered User
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    I can find nothing in my readings to suggest that the détente on the long lifting arm should be anything other than 90 degrees from the arm. I was able to easily bend the détente so that it is at right angles to the arm. However, now I cannot get anything to lock. The follower on the correction hook does fall off of the cam so as to be in position to catch the correction pin, however, by the time the pin rotates far enough to caught by the hook, the follower is no longer in position to catch the pin (it has already been lifted by the cam). It doesn't seem as if this is correctable from the outside of the clock plates. I think that I'm back to square one!
     
  36. shutterbug

    shutterbug Super Moderator
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    You need to get the hook and stop pin in position, and then move the cam to match.
     
  37. harold bain

    harold bain Forums Administrator
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    Timing is everything, and your problem relates to timing. Can't tell from here if you need to separate the plates to time it properly.
     
  38. dwlodyka

    dwlodyka Registered User
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    The cam doesn't appear to be at all adjustable without opening the plates and repositioning the wheels that drive the stop and correction pins.
     
  39. shutterbug

    shutterbug Super Moderator
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    Hmmm. it might be friction fit and movable. If not, you'll have to separate the plates and set the stop and detent drop together.
     
  40. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Maybe a video of what you have will help some.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  41. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    You need to loosen the set screw on the chime plate locking cam
    so you can match the timing of the warning wheel to the locking cam.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  42. RJSoftware

    RJSoftware Registered User

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    Hello again.

    You need to first establish if there is bushing wear. Remember as you stated in beginning of this thread, the original problem was that it barely had the power to lift the rack. Even if it was not true checking the bushings is always a good first step before you spread the plates.

    To do this remove power from the mainsprings. Since your springs are in barrels you can simply let the power down with a "let down" tool. If you don't know what they are look them up here. Basically mine is a large wood handle from a shovel that I fit the key into. It allows a controlled slip to unwind. Mainsprings are powerful and can severely hurt your hands.

    Once you have the mainspring power let down, you can then wiggle the barrels and examine the pivot tips. Mark any bushing hole where the pivot tip wiggles 1/3rd or more of pivot diameter.

    RJ
     
  43. dwlodyka

    dwlodyka Registered User
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    Good afternoon,

    I've made progress. I re-meshed the wheels and have a reliable stop when the following cam drops into the chime cam détente. Now, I get a very reliable stop, however the chimes will operate only at the twelve position and then will run on without stopping until the three-quarter position is reached. I think that the correction hook is set too low. I'm going to try raise it a little to see whether the chimes will operate on each quarter. I'm a little concerned about the "run on" of the chimes right now.

    Dennis
     
  44. dwlodyka

    dwlodyka Registered User
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    When the correction cam follower and locking plate are in the is in the quarter hour position and the correction hook above the long pin on the locking wheel, the short pin is riding below the locking détente on the long lever (the one that was bent toward the locking plate). When viewed from the side, it appears as if the détente is bent upwards and perhaps out of the path of the pin? The détente arm should be square to the long arm, if installed correctly, I would think. I can't imagine why the short pin could would not be caught by the détente.
     
  45. dwlodyka

    dwlodyka Registered User
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    Adding a picture

    [​IMG]
     
  46. dwlodyka

    dwlodyka Registered User
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    Restoring the slight bend in the détente on the long lifting arm that catches the locking pin solves the problem. Ultimately, I had to re-mesh wheels and adjust the warning so that it ran about 180 degrees. It's on the test stand now, but so far all looks good.

    Thank you, folks, for your help with this. Now on to the new dial and bezel.
     
  47. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Sounds like you're making progress. Different manufactures have slightly
    different mechanisms but there are really only two types. The chime locking
    plate type and the older rack and snail, for the chime.
    One wonders, if someone had come up with an autocorrection for the count
    wheel if the strikes would have stayed with the count wheel instead of
    the current day rack and snail?
    Tinker Dwight
     
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