Questions on Troubleshooting Chart in Repair Guide

Discussion in '400-Day & Atmos' started by KurtinSA, Aug 2, 2019.

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  1. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Nov 24, 2014
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    I've got a troublesome clock...it's a Kundo miniature. I think I have some lock issues, having more lock on the entrance side but I like the existing lock on the exit side. I'm fine with the drops. But when I look at the trouble shooting chart on page 47, the top part doesn't really provide me any situation like I have. I'm either deep or very deep on the entrance side but there's nothing for OK lock on the exit side. So, let's say I go with the choice deep on the entrance and shallow on the exit...the recommendation is to move the entrance pallet down. Huh?? Won't that increase the locks? It says as much on the bottom table. I know that the pallets are on a larger circle so changes to one pallet have effects on the other pallet.

    I suppose there's a situation where I could decrease one pallet by x amount and increase the other pallet by the same x amount, the net should be no change. Is that correct?

    I think in my situation, I feel I need to decrease pallet length on the entrance side...noting that's not what the table tells me to do. Maybe I could decrease the entrance pallet by 2x and increase the exit pallet by 1x...maybe that would help offset things.

    Anyway, I'm finding the trouble shooting chart to be less than complete and possibly in error?

    Kurt
     
  2. Harry Hopkins

    Harry Hopkins Registered User
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    I have not run into a geometry problem with a 400 day clock and used the Trouble Shooting Chart and thought it was in error. Sometimes the measurements 'Deep' and 'Shallow' are subjective from person to person. The drops are also a bit subjective. From your description if your drops are equal but your entrance lock is too deep then I believe the correct move would be to move the entrance pallet down (slightly)... OR.. if that causes the EW to lock then both the pallets might need to be raised a bit then watch the locks and adjust again according to the chart. Sometimes you feel like you are chasing your tail because a small change in the pallet length can create a new problem but patience and perseverance will get you to the solution. All this assumes that the pallet lift angles are OK... If it looks like either pallet locking/impulse surface has been altered then that needs to be addressed first although that is quite unlikely.
     
  3. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Harry -

    Well, I experimented and probably have screwed things up. :banghead:

    In response to your suggestion...I have deep lock on the entrance side and OK lock on the exit side. So you're saying and according to the table, move the entrance pallet down. Seems like all that's going to do is increase the lock on both pallets. Not what I wanted to do. :???: At least that seems like that is what happens intuitively.

    Kurt
     
  4. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Well, I increased the pallet length on the entrance side and now the locks are too deep on both sides. The guide doesn't make sense.

    Plus another thing that I find frustrating is the difference in lock when checking by manually moving the anchor back and forth versus what the lock is like when the clock is running. I don't find that carefully moving the anchor pin is a good indication of the true movement of the escapement. Which means I have to assemble each time to see what truly is happening.

    Kurt
     
  5. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Just to add some background, this clock will run maybe a month or so and then stop. I've done just about everything I can think of over the course of nearly two years. So, I'm grasping at straws in the movement and trying to make things better.

    Kurt
     
  6. tracerjack

    tracerjack Registered User
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    #6 tracerjack, Aug 2, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2019
    Well, according to Rabushka, "When one pallet is lowered, the locks of both pallets are increased...When one pallet is raised, the locks of both pallets are decreased." If I understand this correctly, you would have to raise the one with the deep lock to make is shallower and lower the other to get a deeper lock. That wouldn't change the distance between the pallets, but perhaps the relationship to the anchor makes a difference. Maybe someone can set me straight. Still, worth a shot, I guess, since nothing else is working.
     
  7. tracerjack

    tracerjack Registered User
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    I had clocks run for months and then quit. Always, I've either unknowingly bumped the table and physically caused it stop, or knocked it out of beat. And I find with a miniature, everything gets magnified. Seems like if I breathe on them, they'll go out of beat. Getting that teeny little saddle to move in micro steps is a lesson in patience. If they weren't so darn cute...
     
  8. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    ummm.

    for what I want to say the escape wheel never moves.

    the pallets are locked (they are fixed to the verge)

    if you move the verge towards the EW you will deepen the locks.

    ever considered what that does to the verge motion?
    it takes more angle to get to unlock. that is even change on both unlocks.

    if you feel one pallet is good on lock depth and the other is not,
    move the verge sideways. (assuming verge pivot directly above EW)
    the move sideways will change the angle to unlock far more to one side.
    That is _NOT_ even change to both unlocks.

    onto your clock....
    moving just one pallet is the same as moving the verge sideways.

    when you move the verge or the pallets you will change the total action
    of movement of the verge. more angle and reliable locking as you move the verge into the EW.
    this leads to requiring more arc of the pendulum.
    if your clock has not enough power to do the extra swing... the clock will stall.
    you have to back the verge out of the EW. or lower the fork.

    shift the pallets to even lock.
    in the case of your original post if you lowered exit pallet...
    raise the entrance pallet by about half the amount you moved the exit pallet.

    once you get the pallets to about the same lock, then raise and lower them evenly.

    victor
     
    Harry Hopkins likes this.
  9. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    I guess my point is that in the table where the drops are "normal", there are only four conditions to consider for locks. If you use the conditions it shows - very deep, deep, shallow, very shallow - that is a total of 12 permutations of four things taken two at a time where the order matters (as in entrance and exit pallet). If you consider combinations (order doesn't matter), then the total is six. One must really include "OK" as a condition as that is certainly valid. Then the permutations/combinations go up. So, the table doesn't really cover all conditions. That's what I find frustrating.

    I guess one would have to work using the bottom part of the table. It shows what happens with the movement of each pallet by itself and in combination with the other one.

    Kurt
     
  10. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    I get the idea of checking beat. But in this case, the clock sits up on a shelf well out of the way. It sits next to an identical clock which runs just fine! The only difference being that the other clock hasn't been touched by me! :banghead: Also on the clock that won't run, the saddle that holds the upper block is held very tight by a screw. Yesterday, after fiddling with the clock, I had to adjust the beat. It takes a screwdriver to make any adjustments...no way that will get out of beat on its own.

    By way of update, I managed to get the clock running again...for how long is anyone's guess. I'll put on the dial and hands and put it back on the shelf and go back to watching it to see when it stops next.

    Kurt
     
  11. tracerjack

    tracerjack Registered User
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    If it’s high on a shelf, then no, it is not accidentally being put out of beat. The supposition would then be that while it is working, it is not optimally working, which you have been diligently trying to correct. While it is frustrating for you, I have to thank you. I’m learning a ton from your posts.
     
  12. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    TJ -

    Thanks for that...sometimes I just need someone to talk to!!! It is frustrating how these things go for me. I can work on a clock and afterwards get it together and it runs great...I say to myself "I got this!!". Then the next clock doesn't run and I have to take it apart half a dozen times only to sit on the shelf for another time. Then I say WTF? I don't have a guru next door to show and find out what's wrong so I can learn for the next time. I suppose we're all in that position...at least most of us!

    Kurt
     
  13. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    #13 KurtinSA, Aug 3, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2019
    As I mentioned it ran over night with only the motion works...no hands. So, I put the dial and hands on and restarted the clock at around 1:30pm. Noticed it stopped at 1:45pm. Interesting...trying to raise the hands?? So, I restarted at 2:00pm and will see if it makes it around to 2:45 or so.

    -- update -- clock stopped at around 2:43 pm, so not enough power. Likely I have too much lock now. Without the hands, it was rotating nearly 270 degrees with about 30-35 degrees of rotation, so I don't think I can lower the fork much.

    Kurt
     
  14. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Went at it again, shortened the entrance pallet. Jinxing myself here, but I've passed by 0:45 three times now while holding good rotation.

    Seems like the "blind acorn..." idea comes to mind. Or is it throw it against the wall and see what sticks.

    I'll be interested to see if it's running in the AM.

    Kurt
     
  15. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    Hi Kurt,

    from your description I expect it will be running.

    my thinking about your concern.

    keep in mind you are working on a very low power machine.
    With the clock properly rigged and set, you do not have much 'extra'power in any case.
    a clock with extra power can run out of beat.

    I usually know I have the beat and EW/verge set when the clock goes from
    'barely runs' to a good amount of overswing...

    like a lot of assembly items you have to get some parts set before you can go to the next part.
    I know I have to try to get the verge set (or re-set) when
    I get the beat set and the pendulum stops... and again, you have to be confident you have all the other
    pivots and wheels as they should be.

    I am guessing the repair guide wants you to think only about one pallet.
    I know there are always two on an ordinary verge... and they do affect each other.
    still, just think of one. and follow the instructions.
    do entrance pallet then exit pallet and repeat until you get locks and unlock/drops as you want them.
     
  16. chrisuk

    chrisuk Registered User
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    Just a thought. Does each pallet give the same amount of lift? I only say this because I once had a clock in for repair which had adjustable pallet nibs which fitted in curved slots in their frame. Close examination showed that one of them had been replaced, maybe the original got lost. They had different lift angles, I can't remember which w\y round it was but for example; as an EW tooth moved along the impulse face of the entrance pallet this pallet turned the verge through a large angle (so deep lock on the exit pallet) and as an EW tooth moved along the impulse face of the exit pallet the rotation of the verge was much less (shallow lock on the entrance pallet). The solution was to regrind and polish the impulse face of the replacement pallet nib so that its action matched that of the original one.

    If you've already checked this please forgive me for wasting your time.

    Best of luck
    Chris
     
  17. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    #17 KurtinSA, Aug 8, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2019
    Chris -

    Thanks for your ideas. The idea that pallets have been modified, reground, replaced is usually way down the list as far as I'm concerned. Not sure I'd be able to tell that unless it bit me!! But I suppose after checking everything else, better check this one. And it would help if I had a duplicate clock that I could compare with.

    BTW...the clock in question has been running well. My next "goal" will be to see if it will run for more than a month.

    Kurt

    -- update -- Rats...hadn't seen the clock since this morning. It stopped...so only a week or so. Back to the drawing board. Time was 7:43am. Hmmm...seems it wants to stop trying to raise the minute hand. Might be time to replace the main spring.
     

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