Question about Escape Wheels

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by diver7325, Jan 14, 2020.

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  1. diver7325

    diver7325 Registered User

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    I am working on a clock for a customer that has some of teeth of the escape wheel broken. The wheel is 30mm and has 32 teeth. I found a replacement wheel on Timesavers; however, it is 31mm and has 32 teeth. will the 1 extra mm make that big of a difference or will I just have to move the verge to compensate for it? As long as the tooth count is the same, I should be ok, right??

    Any insight is greatly appreciated!!
     
  2. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    It’s all about the math and angles between the pallets and the escape wheel… Which means the answer is 1 mm WILL make a difference. It’s either the right size or it’s not. I know they sell verge and escape wheel combinations, but maybe if you post photos we could determine whether your escape wheel can be repaired
     
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  3. Dick Feldman

    Dick Feldman Registered User

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    Most likely the EW from Timesavers was made in India and is probably not precise but only close. If close is good enough, you will be a hero.
    You asked if you will be OK and there is only one way to find out.
    1mm in diameter is only ½ mm on each side.
    You will have to match the bore to the arbor as well.
    Have you thought about buying a matching verge and EW?
    That may save you some set up time.
    Ideally, you should have a proper EW made and set it up. Unfortunately,
    Those newly machined EW’s cost a lot of money.

    Best of luck,

    Dick
     
  4. Hudson

    Hudson Registered User
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    What type of escapement? Is it strip pallet recoil, strip pallet dead beat, anchor recoil, one piece deadbeat, adjustable pallet deadbeat, or.....?

    Whether you can make it work depends on the design and how much "adjusting" you can do to the pallets. You might be able to get it to work if you can, for example, open the spacing between the pallets and change the center distance. You have the right number of teeth, so if you can get the locks and drops working you are good to go. You might even check to see if the old wheel looks like it is worn or that the teeth might have been "topped" in the past..
     
  5. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    You should be able to deal with the extra 1/2mm without to much trouble. The problem is that the replacement wheels often have stumpy shaped teeth that won't work with a dead beat escapement. As others have mentioned, we would need to know more about exactly what you have there and more about what the replacement looks like.
    WIllie X
     
  6. Hudson

    Hudson Registered User
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    What about Timesavers no.10822 which is a 32 tooth wheel 30mm diameter? Would that work for you?
     
  7. diver7325

    diver7325 Registered User

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    The clock is at the shop right now...I will get close up pictures of it when I get there tomorrow.

    Thanks for all the help so far!!
     
  8. diver7325

    diver7325 Registered User

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    I am showing on Timesaver's website that the above wheel's diameter is 31mm...not 30mm
     
  9. Hudson

    Hudson Registered User
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    Page 105 of the 2019-2021 Timesavers Catalog (paper version) is where I found the item listed as 30mm x 32 teeth. Maybe give them a call to clarify?
     
  10. diver7325

    diver7325 Registered User

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    Here are the pictures of the escapement. The two teeth with the black dots by them are the broken ones. I know it is out of beat, but I was waiting to adjust it. I will try to upload a video shortly.

    IMG_6868.jpg IMG_6869.jpg IMG_6870.jpg
     
  11. diver7325

    diver7325 Registered User

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    Here is a video of the clock running...I know it is out of beat, but I was waiting to adjust it.
     

    Attached Files:

  12. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    We don't have the ability to support video yet. Try uploading to Youtube and linking here.
    That short tooth is a real problem. It could cause a skip in the escapement and the clock would start speeding up. I also notice that some of the other teeth are hooked on the end.
    You might be able to "pull" the teeth to a nice point again, and possibly even be able to pull the short tooth out to match the others. What you need is some smooth jawed needle nose pliers. Grip the base of the tooth so that one jaw of the pliers is flush with the flat side of the tooth. Grip moderately and pull straight out to the point, keeping the flat edge flat. Concentrate on the short tooth - it will need several pulls while the others may only need one. Let us know how it goes.
     
  13. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    or, if you know someone who has a webster escape wheel tooth straightener... i've had success with mine pulling teeth like those straight and in some cases a little longer to match those on either side.

    you might also be able to follow up with a very slight topping of the teeth in a lathe (or similar) to make them more even in height. the trick is to of course not take off too much height while evening them out.
     
  14. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    but i would try before going through the hassle of trying to install a new escape wheel and/or verge...
     
  15. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    A jeweler's hammer, or a small ball peen hammer and a smooth top anvil, can be used to 'spread' that tooth out longer. Look up 'spreading metal' or 'using a spreading hammer'.

    Also, you can bet that verge is hardened.
    So, don't attempt to bend it cold.

    WIllie X
     
  16. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    Dave LaBounty has an excellent tutorial on escape wheel restoration, and that one looks restorable. The wheel can be "planished" and then 'topped.' Heed his instructions, and I believe a new escape wheel will be unnecessary. That tutorial saved my bacon with a difficult cuckoo movement that would simply not run.

    The earlier posters are correct: the installation of a new escape wheel is typically a miserable process. I'd do it only if a wheel was missing altogether.
     
  17. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    You could also use a file to top the teeth. It will need to be carefully controlled, not by hand holding, to do the job efficiently. While the wheel is spinning in a device with little to no run-out, hold the file against your controlling plate and in line with the wheel. Touch the teeth very lightly and check for even height. Several little adjustments are much better than a big one that goes too far.
     
  18. diver7325

    diver7325 Registered User

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    **UPDATE**

    I was able to reshape the two broken teeth and cleaned up the other teeth as well. The verge is now running freely when the pendulum is off, but when I put the pendulum back on, it will run for about 5 minutes then stops...what am I doing wrong now? Any other time I have had a movement where the verge would run freely without the pendulum, when I put the pendulum back on, it ran great, but not this time...

    Any thoughts??
     
  19. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    maybe the clock is not in beat? Without the pendulum the clock may have enough power to overcome running up-hill, but with the weight of the pendulum that is harder.

    Or you may have a loss of power somewhere in the train.

    Uhralt
     
  20. Hudson

    Hudson Registered User
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    That strip pallet (half) deadbeat escapement can be difficult to set up. The inlet pallet arm looks suspicious, like it has been "adjusted" in the past.
    I have found that if I follow the method detailed in Steven Conover's "Book 3, Escapements" I can get good results.
     
  21. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    A slo-mo video would allow the listers to make an assement of what you have there.

    A train running free (with crutch) doesn't tell you too much. In fact, on the movement you have, a free running train (with crutch) would not be expected.

    Willie X
     
  22. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    You are right, a deadbeat escapement usually doesn't run free. Maybe this is a hint that the verge is set too shallow so that the EW teeth hit the impulse faces and not the stop faces. Then it acts like a recoil escapement and could run free without the pendulum.

    Uhralt
     
  23. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    Heed the others' advice about escapement adjustment. If that doesn't help--Steven Conover's book on escapements, which I have to review, is recommended--then re-bush the escape wheel and close the holes on the anchor. Then re-adjust.
     
  24. diver7325

    diver7325 Registered User

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    After looking closer to the verge, it appears to have been broken and soldered back together. I really didn't pay that much attention to it before you mentioned it. With that being said, I'm thinking about just cutting my losses since I don't know how close to original this was soldered back together and order a matched set of verge and escape wheel from Timesavers and replace both.

    Thoughts??
     
  25. Dick Feldman

    Dick Feldman Registered User

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    That damage was not caused by normal or long use of the clock.
    Probably the clock owner had a hand in the "repair."
    To me, this would seem a candidate for the much scorned "Hall of SHAME'
    Dick
     
  26. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    Here's a thought: No.

    I have had too many adventures with store-bought escapements. Buy yourself a copy of the aforementioned Conover book on escapements and perhaps one of the strips of verge steel offered by Timesavers, and see if you can get the clock going reasonably well with its original parts. Don't disturb the soldered-together verge, for there's a chance that the thing worked the way it is. The verge broke because the guy tried to adjust it by bending, and it had been hardened, and Conover goes over all that at some length. There's also a possibility that the previous owner tried to make the clock run as a recoil, not a dead-beat. Conover covers that as well.

    Rebush the escape wheel pivots and tighten, however you can, the verge pivots, which look like someone bushed them at some point. Any slop in the escape wheel or verge pivots is lost motion that will reduce pendulum swing--a lot. Watch the escape wheel pivots as the clock runs for any side-shake, and watch to see if the verge hops around, too. Tolerances in those pivots must be quite tight, though you'll have to ensure that the motion is perfectly free.
     
  27. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    Same here.

    A pro can braze your old verge back together but every trace of the old solder will have to be removed first. I usually put a little 'build' on both sides and file away any 'build' that is in the way of the saddle, redrill the holes etc. It takes some time but nowhere as much time as trying to find, or make, a decent replacement. Willie X
     
  28. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    Disreguard post #27. I went back and looked at the photos. That repair is nothing to write home about but it will not adversly affect the working of the escapement. Pretty sure the depth is too shallow, as already mentioned by others.
    WIllie X
     
  29. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    David LaBounty has a good tutorial on verifying and establishing the proper lift angles on those verges.
     
  30. diver7325

    diver7325 Registered User

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    Here is the link to the video of the escapement before pulling the two short teeth...I will upload more shortly.

     
  31. diver7325

    diver7325 Registered User

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    Here is a video of the movement free running...

     
  32. diver7325

    diver7325 Registered User

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    Here it is after the teeth were pulled out...

     
  33. diver7325

    diver7325 Registered User

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    And a slow motion video of it running before it stopped...video isn't very clear unfortunately...

     
  34. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    From the video it is quite obvious that the left side of the verge isn't set close enough to the EW. The teeth land on the impulse face, which creates a recoil. The right side looks a bit better but I'm not sure if there is secure lock. Try moving the verge closer to the EW, so that the teeth will land securely on the stop faces of the verge.

    Uhralt
     
  35. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    Dito, it's running as a recoil. Loosen the pivot bridge screw and move the verge up about 1/2mm and see what happens.

    Note, for fine adjustments, snug the bridge screw down and adjust by lightly tapping the bridge up or sown slightly using a long punch (4" length of chime rod) and a 2oz jewelers hammer. The verge should be moved just enough so the e-wheel teeth always fall on the dead face of the pallet, NOT the slanted impulse face at the tip. Willie X

    20200117_180011.jpg ok
     
  36. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    I agree. Those strip pallets usually have a little recoil on one side, but not from the impulse face. You might need other adjustments too, because the drops are unequal .... but doing the adjustment mentioned might help that too.
     
  37. diver7325

    diver7325 Registered User

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    I moved the verge a tab bit closer to the escape wheel, and the right side hits great, but the left side still isn't hitting right...when I adjust it so that the left side hits properly, the right side does not allow the teeth to drop out. I'm thinking that when the verge was broken and soldered back together, it was not soldered exactly back to original. I have ordered the Escapement Book like everyone suggested, so I am going to wait and see what I find out in it. I'm think that I might have to trim the right side so it and the left side are the exact height so the teeth will release as it goes.

    Am I on the right track now??
     
  38. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    Maybe the clock just isn't in beat now? What happens when you tilt the movement by moving the right side up a bit?

    Uhralt
     
  39. diver7325

    diver7325 Registered User

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    No matter how far I tilt it, it still won't release the teeth on the right side...if I move the verge back out so that it releases on the right side, then the left side does not hit properly no matter how far I tilt it too...that is why I think the soldered side is not the right height.
     
  40. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    You can't do that unless you re-establish the required 2° lifting angle on the pallet. If you contact David LaBounty, he could make you a new strip pallet. That might be your best bet. He'll need some specific info, like escape wheel size, etc.
    He also has a large inventory of parts, and might have one.
     

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