Purchasing random bushing assortment maybe a mistake

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by Elliott Wolin, May 21, 2020 at 9:53 PM.

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. It's Coming
    Just Two More Days
  1. Elliott Wolin

    Elliott Wolin Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 18, 2019
    170
    14
    18
    Male
    Retired
    Williamsburg, Virginia
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I purchased an assortment of bushings on eBay hoping the correct sizes for repair of my 1916 Ingraham striking movement would be in there. This likely was a mistake, better to order what you need, not take a gamble on a random assortment. A lot of them are large enough for grandfather clocks and perhaps even tower clocks :(. But they were inexpensive :).

    I noticed many of the smaller bushings (all I've looked at so far) have ODs not listed in the KWM chart, so I assume they are Bergeon, unless there are other manufacturers. Alas I purchased KWM reamers before I realized they were not KWM, not clear what I'm going to do with the ones that don't work with my reamers. I guess I can try drills or broaches.

    Unfortunately the few I measured prior to purchasing the reamers were on the KWM chart, perhaps there's just a mix of everything in there.
     
  2. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 7, 2011
    11,058
    1,465
    113
    Male
    Retired from Xerox
    Breamore, Hampshire, UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi Elliott,

    I think your experience with this holds true for most of the 'assortments' which are offered on the auction sites; all the useful sizes or types of whatever they are, (bushings, jewel holes, crystals, etc), will probably have been used already, leaving just the oddities behind.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  3. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

    Aug 17, 2014
    3,136
    331
    83
    Male
    Science teacher, writer
    Lancaster, Ohio, USA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Timesavers sold a collection of odd bushings that I used quite a bit when I was starting out. They won't work well if your only method of retaining the bushing in the plate is by friction, but they can be riveted into a hole or held in with a bit of thread-locker or other retaining compound, and the hole can be reamed out with a tapered broach for either method.
     
  4. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
    Sponsor NAWCC Brass Member

    Feb 22, 2010
    6,588
    555
    113
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi Elliott,

    They are not be what you need at the moment but they may still come in very handy. Hopefully the Seller kept the bushings organized. Know what you have and store them away so you can quickly retrieve them when the need arises. Rest assured that sooner or later you'll need to replace worn Bergeon Bushings too. That can be a troublesome task if you only have the smaller KWMs on hand (as I do).

    Here's a couple of links to Bergeon charts:

    Bergeon Bushings Cheatsheet/Chart

    https://milehiclocksupplies.com/catalogue-pages/39 Bergeon Bushing Chart Brass.pdf

    Good luck with your Ingraham,

    Bruce
     
    NEW65 likes this.
  5. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

    Apr 4, 2006
    9,954
    751
    113
    Male
    Trappe, Md.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I made the mistake of buying a Bergeon assortment (new unopened box) many years ago - still have dozens of very tiny and some very large sizes that I'll not live long enough to use. I think almost everyone makes the same mistake. If one has the KWM or Bergeon reamer set I recommend just buying bushings that work with the reamers one has, or buying the correct reamer when buying just the bushings one will use.

    RC
     
  6. Elliott Wolin

    Elliott Wolin Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 18, 2019
    170
    14
    18
    Male
    Retired
    Williamsburg, Virginia
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I plan to purchase some bushings, but to keep the cost down I wonder if the following strategy will work well. KWM bushings only come in a few ODs and thicknesses. It seems I could buy the smallest ID for each OD and thickness I need, and use a broach to open the ID to match pivot diameters.

    Any reason this wouldn't work? You likely have to broach anyway.
     
  7. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 4, 2008
    4,685
    537
    113
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I tried this strategy many years ago, and it didn't work well for me. For the larger IDs you have to broach quite a bit and the risk to wander off center by doing so is quite big.

    Uhralt
     
  8. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
    Sponsor NAWCC Brass Member

    Feb 22, 2010
    6,588
    555
    113
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi Elliott,

    Ideally no broaching is necessary but you're right. Some broaching (or better yet, reaming) is usually necessary (in my experience).

    If you're ordering for a specific movement, just order a packet matching your smallest diameter pivot and go with your plan.

    When you're ready to stock more bushings, there's a lot of good "on demand" advice in the Archives detailing what's best to order first as you build up your stock. Of course everything will depend on your Collection preferences.

    Don't overlook Butterworth Clocks as a source for your bushings. He provides good, consistent quality at relatively low prices. You may be able to stock more sizes sooner than you think.

    Regards,

    Bruce
     
  9. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 19, 2005
    42,612
    1,097
    113
    Male
    Self employed interpreter/clock repairer
    North Carolina
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    It's nice to have the odd ones around. When you need them, you need them .... and like you said, they don't represent a huge investment. The ones I use all the time, I buy in packs of 100. The few that I've rarely used will not be replaced except by making myself.
     
  10. Elliott Wolin

    Elliott Wolin Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 18, 2019
    170
    14
    18
    Male
    Retired
    Williamsburg, Virginia
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Yes, I plan to purchase the K series from Butterworth that are on closeout. One size that I need, a few others to have around, which is why I'm thinking to purchase small IDs and use a broach to open them up. They are real cheap on closeout, so not a big problem if some don't work out.

    BTW the K series have no oil sinks, but I have a KWM chamfer cutter, so I don't think this is a problem.
     
  11. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
    Sponsor NAWCC Brass Member

    Feb 22, 2010
    6,588
    555
    113
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Go lightly with the Reamer as far as the cutting oil sinks is concerned. Chamfer Cutters and/or Drill bits cut a "V" into the Bushing. If you go too deep this will shorten the bushing leaving less surface area for the pivot to rest against. Ideally you cut a very shallow "U". Jerry recommends a round-nose end-cutting Mill bit. I used the Chamfer cutter for some time. I think it worked okay. Just use a light hand and don't go as far as the OD. Some movement plates weren't formed with oil sinks. In those cases I'll usually add a little oil to the area of the pivot shoulder in hopes that will serve as a small reserve of oil. BTW, it's good to have an oiler that can reach between the plates.

    Bruce
     
  12. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

    Apr 4, 2006
    9,954
    751
    113
    Male
    Trappe, Md.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    In theory it should work but like Uhralt, I started out that way but didn't like the outcome. Not only can the broack walk off center, it is pretty much impossible to hold a broach truly perpendicular to the plate by hand while rotating the broach. When the hole must be broached I find that it helps to frequently turn the plate to a different position. Best to keep broaching to a minimum if done at all. Once the hole is the correct size for the pivot, place the arbor in the hole and place the other plate in position just above the other end of the arbor and "tilt" the arbor north, south, east, and west 360 degrees around the pivot hole in the other plate. If all went well the tilted pivot should be the same distance all the way around the hole. If you freehand broach a small ID bushing for a larger pivot and do the above test you will likely be shocked just how crooked the broached hole is.

    RC
     
  13. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 19, 2005
    42,612
    1,097
    113
    Male
    Self employed interpreter/clock repairer
    North Carolina
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I think what might work better for you is to mount your bushing in a drill (or drill press), and use a pin vise to hold a drill bit that has been modified to cut brass. That will get you a lot closer to your final size more accurately than a broach, and then you could broach a little for the final fit. If you lay the bushing on a table and chuck it vertically, it will chuck pretty straight. Of course, nothing will be as good as doing it with a lathe ... but I'm talking the least destructive option ;)
     
  14. Elliott Wolin

    Elliott Wolin Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 18, 2019
    170
    14
    18
    Male
    Retired
    Williamsburg, Virginia
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I've been thinking about using my drill press, as others do. Modifying the bit for brass is a good idea, I'd forgotten about that.
     
  15. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
    Sponsor NAWCC Brass Member

    Feb 22, 2010
    6,588
    555
    113
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    BTW, you may find that they've sold out of their K Series. I would suggest that you write up your order notes ahead of time and then call it in.
     
    NEW65 likes this.
  16. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

    Aug 17, 2014
    3,136
    331
    83
    Male
    Science teacher, writer
    Lancaster, Ohio, USA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    We actually have a good way to tell if oil sinks make much difference, for a good many American clocks put them on the back plate for show but not on the front plate. My old Sears catalog mentions them, along with cut pivots, as a sales feature for their cuckoo clocks.

    I generally use Timesavers KWM-size bronze 20 packs, plus Mr Butterworth's bushings and the occasional Timesavers brass 50-packs when they don't have bronze. The material matters little, but I like the bronze just because.

    For the KWM reamer III OD, ID's of 1mm through 1.9mm in 0.1mm increments will fix most American clocks.

    For the reamer II OD I used to just keep the 0.6mm ID size and ream these out to 0..7mm, 0.8mm, or 0.9mm ID as needed, but I've since graduated to purchasing these latter three sizes outright: you find them in German clocks a good deal.

    For the larger reamer IV sizes I've kept ID's of 2.0mm through 2.9mm. For anything larger you'll run into a KWM size known as the 'IVa' OD. The reamer for these costs, tra la, $41.00,so I haven't bothered with it. I have some bushings of that size, so on the rare occasions I've needed one I just ream the hole out with a broach and rivet them in.

    I'm still not sure I'm completely enamored of the KWM system, but I bought a KWM starter set (red plastic handle, #III reamer, and a red cardboard box with bushings in 1967 or so, and Bergeon wasn't selling bushings then, at least not at the Cleveland supply store where I bought stuff like this. (Bushing machines didn't exist: KWM was entirely a by-hand operation. At least that's what their instruction sheet said. I dunno where the bushing machines came from. In any case, the Bergeon system, which Mr Butterworth likes, might well be better.

    I keep bushings in pill containers, the SMTWTFS variety that are favored by those of us who have to take daily medications.
     
  17. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
    Sponsor NAWCC Brass Member

    Feb 22, 2010
    6,588
    555
    113
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #17 Bruce Alexander, May 22, 2020 at 4:32 PM
    Last edited: May 22, 2020 at 4:55 PM
    If they were simply for show, what gave oil sinks an illusion of quality? Many American Manufacturers made European "Knock Offs".

    Because of locations of Pinions, comparisons between front and rear plates will likely not provide much useful information.

    Here' are a few interesting theories in the Archives (not surprisingly this has been discussed before): Oil sinks???

    For bushing purposes, oil sinks often (but not always) mark Center.

    If they were placed by the manufacturer, I place them in my bushings to match the others. If there are no oil sinks in the plate, I don't. Hard to go wrong that way and a very good reason to order Bushings without Oil Sinks if they are available. I'm not sure that Mark produces them anymore.

    I think that the shoulder is a good place to lubricate. Not only is there more surface area to hold oil, the shoulders provide significant amounts of friction.

    Edit:
    Elliott, I want to stress the importance of placing a small chamfer on the inside surface of your bushings, This will make a little more space for an oil film but most importantly it will reduce the chances of binding at the pivot shoulder. There is often a little bit of rounding at the junction between the pivot and the arbor. You don't need much of a chamfer, but remember to always place one.
     
  18. Elliott Wolin

    Elliott Wolin Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 18, 2019
    170
    14
    18
    Male
    Retired
    Williamsburg, Virginia
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    A small chamfer on the inside, touching the pivot shoulder...never would have thought of that. Easy to do, too. Thanks.

    BTW I ordered a bunch of bushings from Butterworth w/o oil sinks, I'll create oil sinks as needed.
     
  19. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
    Sponsor NAWCC Brass Member

    Feb 22, 2010
    6,588
    555
    113
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    That's good to know Elliott, thanks.
    I thought he had stopped producing them.

    Regarding the slight chamfer emphasis is on "slight". You're just taking off the edge... maybe a few thousandths of an inch should be enough if the pivot shoulder is well formed.

    Bruce
     
  20. TooManyClocks

    TooManyClocks Registered User

    Feb 6, 2019
    91
    19
    8
    Male
    Country Flag:
    I found this to be true when I ran out of larger ID bushings and figured since I had so many smaller ID ones that rarely got used, why not use some up...after broaching to the right size it had wandered way off center. After fixing that problem, I never tried it again, and I make sure I don’t run out of the larger sizes I use often.

    John
     
  21. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

    Aug 17, 2014
    3,136
    331
    83
    Male
    Science teacher, writer
    Lancaster, Ohio, USA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I didn't know that Mark Butterworth had any of the no-oilsink bushings left. I like them because you don't have to be forever flipping them over to find the correct side.

    I should also mention that it's often difficult to ream or drill a bushing because they're so difficult to hold, at least for me. Even threadlockers of various types often won't hold them in the plate so you can use a broach thereupon: the bushing starts turning and there you are. Sometimes you can use a pin vise to hold them prior to mounting them, but it tends to be an adventure.
     
  22. MARK A. BUTTERWORTH

    MARK A. BUTTERWORTH Registered User
    NAWCC Life Member NAWCC Member

    Jul 4, 2009
    2,293
    89
    48
    Male
    Diistributor of movements and movement parts.
    Muscatine, Iowa 52761
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Although we are sold out of the most common sizes Of the K series, we sill have over 3/4 of the KWM sizes left w/o oil sink. Even at liquidation pricing, they are not nearly as popular. My personal view is that oil sinks serve more to collect dust and are counter productive, but most folks seem to think they are needed.
     
  23. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

    Apr 4, 2006
    9,954
    751
    113
    Male
    Trappe, Md.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Mark, you may be correct about the value of "oil sinks". I mostly use bushings (with oil sinks) that are a bit taller than the plate thickness. Where the plate originally had an oil sink I press the bushing flush with the outside of the plate and trim it flush inside with the Bergeon "pivot cutter". If the original plate had no oil sink I press the bushing flush on the inside and and trim it flush on the outside removing all or most of the oil sink. I considered buying bushings without oil sinks for movements that didn't originally have them, but that would have been another inventory of bushings to maintain, so by just longer bushings and trimming one end or the other I only have to keep half as many bushings on hand.

    RC
     
  24. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 19, 2005
    42,612
    1,097
    113
    Male
    Self employed interpreter/clock repairer
    North Carolina
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I think oil sinks are over rated. If the pivot is level with or slightly below the plate surface, an "oil sink" can keep it from tunneling into the plate. That might be a practical use for them. But if the pivot is above the plate, an oil sink will rob full contact with the bearing surface, and wear will occur sooner. I'm of the same opinion as Mark - they are more detrimental than useful most of the time.
     
  25. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
    Sponsor NAWCC Brass Member

    Feb 22, 2010
    6,588
    555
    113
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    If you have a round nose punch, you can tighten the bushing immediately otherwise I would just let the LocTite

    Regarding Oil Sinks, I usually try to match what was put there by the Manufacturer, especially if it is an antique mechanism.
    Often a pre-manufactured oil sink isn't a good match and so I end up "tweaking" the bushing anyway.

    If the manufacturer pressed them in, it may have been to work-harden the brass around the pivot hole rather than to encourage gravity to drain the bearing as the oil runs down the plate.
     
  26. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

    Aug 17, 2014
    3,136
    331
    83
    Male
    Science teacher, writer
    Lancaster, Ohio, USA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Did manufacturers put bushings in clocks? I know that this was done for steel-plate clocks, and I seem to recall some discussion of their use with brass plates, but I've never gotten it quite straight.

    If you're restoring an antique to its original appearance, of course you'd want to restore the original oil sink. Most owners aren't concerned with that, though I worry about it somewhat. But I wonder if we can judge the utility of an oil sink by considering how it was supposed to work. It's my impression that the oil sink was supposed to provide a one-drop capacity reservoir of oil of which the thirsty pivot could partake every 40 years.

    But I've never seen a clock with oil in its oil sinks even when the movement seemed just fine. I believe that the true reservoir is between the pivot and the wall of the pivot hole.
     
  27. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
    Sponsor NAWCC Brass Member

    Feb 22, 2010
    6,588
    555
    113
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi Mark,

    Not in the manufacturers/models I'm familiar with but like you, I've seen brass bushings or plugs in steel plates. When I said "If the manufacturer pressed them in", I was thinking of a process in which the plate is pressed, not machined.

    Just my personal preferences.

    I agree. Capillary action holds the oil between the pivot, pivot shoulder and plate. Too much oil in the "sink" will overcome it and drain ther oil. Too much clearance or wear breaks down capillary action too.

    Regards,

    Bruce
     

Share This Page